Focused Feedback: VEAT Updates

[Shazbotacus]

Looking at power stats.
Mace blasts, Heavy Burst, and Pummel all still appear underwhelming. Very underwhelming in the case of Heavy Burst and mace beams. Frag Grenade still looks not great.
Poisonous Ray seems to have a base lv 50 DPA of 66 up from 55 or so. It seems to have gone from slightly below par to... it looks like it might be okay for a mace Bane to use now? At least if coupled with Venom Grenade which any SoA should be using anyways.

For Arachnos Soldier powers, the powers that were trap picks are still trap picks.

[Kaika]

I can also confirm, that Frag grenade not being fire-able from the mace is not a oversight, but intended.

 

I think sighting lore for why you can't shoot a frag grenade from a mace that already shoots two other forms of grenades is just silly, specially considering players are not tied to that lore. As of now on live you can already fire the frag grenade out of a Sniper rifle, a Sub machine gun, and a laser rifle, all of these makes less sense then a mace already known for firing grenades. If you want to encourage me to pick Mace Beam blast, make it comparable in effectiveness, otherwise I need to nerf myself if I want a specific ascetic that the whole sub class is designed around.

 

On the note of the mace beam attacks, at least from the numbers, outside of Poisonous Ray which is fine now, they all seem very lack luster still, I get we can't have too many good ranged attacks, but they seems rather pointless when you can just take the gun attacks which are still way better. It just strikes me as odd that the starting gun attacks are much better then the mace attacks that you specifically need to choose Bane to obtain, even Poisonous Ray is not nearly as good as Burst in most situations. To me these beam attacks are Iconic to the mace and really are what sets it apart from normal mace, and leaving them as the lesser options really does the class a disservice in terms of the class fantasy. I don't suspect this could be in the cards now, but if it's really that much of a balance issue to make most of the beam attacks decent, I would rather see them become mutually exclusive copies of rifle attacks that just do energy or toxic damage instead, in the same way Venom grenade is on crab (with old builds getting grandfathered in). That way Huntsman can keep their rifle attacks, and we don't overload the AT with good ranged options.

 

I wanna stress that I still see the current changes made as big step in the right direction, I just think we still need more. Almost every time I see a Bane these day's it's a Huntman who does not use the mace (or makes very little use of it), and while I don't want to weaken or discourage that playstyle, I think it's pretty telling about the state of Bane if it's less common then what should be a niche specialty build, and that's saying nothing about the amount of crabs vs bane. I just want to see it be the best it can be.

 

PS: Maceless Build up for Huntsman would be awesome

Edited January 20 by Riot Siren

[Lazarillo]

Not sure if this is intended or not, nor whether it belongs here or in the APP feedback, but the Mace Blast from Scorp's epic pool still use the longer animation times, at least according to the numbers displayed in-game.  I've been using that on my Bane to round out my ranged options since it's also a nice prerequisite for Shatter Armor, and since I need a prerequisite, I'll still be taking it over the primary version anyway, but I'm curious if the lack of parity is intended.

[KaizenSoze]

35 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Not sure if this is intended or not, nor whether it belongs here or in the APP feedback, but the Mace Blast from Scorp's epic pool still use the longer animation times, at least according to the numbers displayed in-game.  I've been using that on my Bane to round out my ranged options since it's also a nice prerequisite for Shatter Armor, and since I need a prerequisite, I'll still be taking it over the primary version anyway, but I'm curious if the lack of parity is intended.

Just pointing out that Web Envelope now does Toxic damage, which if of course boosted by Venom Nade.

[Lazarillo]

34 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Just pointing out that Web Envelope now does Toxic damage, which if of course boosted by Venom Nade.

Noted.  I might swap 'em if things go live as-is then.  I have a very...let's just say high concept build on my Bane that I love, so the build is really tight, but I could probably make that work, particularly if the updated Web Envelope can take targeted AoE damage sets.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Hey these are all great, I love them. No feedback and also I haven't tested squat so I shouldn't back the feed.

 

However, while we're under the hood... any chance we can adjust Conditioning so it isn't a hidden power? It's pretty dumb we can't see the effect it has on our characters in-game.

 

I wouldn't object to it being buffed, either. Playing grass-fed organically up to level 24 is painful on VEATs due in part to the endurance demands of the powers, even slotted with DOs/SOs. Maybe that's less bad with these changes? I probably should even be posting here like some filthy non-testing casual. Ugh. I hate me.

 

1 hour ago, Riot Siren said:

PS: Maceless Build up for Huntsman would be awesome

 

+1 on this. Would be a sweet QoL to at least have the customization option.

 

[Videra]

Hey, so I've trundled around with some of the changes a bit on Brainstorm. Something I feel like I've immediately noticed is that I'm just kind of whelmed from a Soldier-specific POV. Obviously, they're good changes, but to echo previous sentiments - just not quite enough. All of the 'trap picks', like Frenzy, Heavy Burst, Pummel and Channelgun still feel like trap picks. I'm not explicitly a numbers person, so I don't know what would be too much, but I have played *a lot* of crab and I just don't feel like much will really change for me on this front.

I think, specifically, Frenzy and Suppression in particular still feel a little bit on the slow side as far as animation speed goes. Omega Maneuever also feels questionable because, while I like its concept, it's essentially a time delayed-nuke in a world where Inferno, Nova, and other essentially instant cast nukes exist - I'm not sure what you can do with this one, but it felt worth noting.

While I'd obviously like to see Crab's powers be made better, I'd also like to ask after something that seems like it got overlooked. Being able to replace Burst's animation with Longfang is neat, so why can't we do the same thing with single shot, pummel and bayonet? Channelgun and Slice are right there - and it would be consistent with the idea of using power customization to represent Crab Spider animations on rifle attacks.
 

Edited January 21 by Videra

[FupDup]

On the topic of power customization, would it be possible for some of the ranged epic attacks like Charged Bolts, Gloom, etc. to have Mace and/or Crab backpack options?

[Lazarillo]

I've noticed a bug, though haven't been able to consistently pin it down, where Crab Spider attack animations don't, well, animate.  It seems like it's maybe tied to moving right around the time of the activation causes them to just fire from the combat-ready neutral stance (resulting in lots of shooting into the ground or the middle of the air (sorta like what happens to Dominators' Ice Slash).

Edited January 21 by Lazarillo

[Chthon]

Shouldn't Omega Maneuver be able to hit 24 targets? Because Omega is... you know... it's the 24th letter of the Greek alphabet... c'mon...

[ViridianDev]

13 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

I've noticed a bug, though haven't been able to consistently pin it down, where Crab Spider attack animations don't, well, animate.  It seems like it's maybe tied to moving right around the time of the activation causes them to just fire from the combat-ready neutral stance (resulting in lots of shooting into the ground or the middle of the air (sorta like what happens to Dominators' Ice Slash).

 

What you're probably seeing here is if you're queueing Channelgun/alt anim Burst/Longfang while another is already animating; this is a known legacy animation bug that happens when you activate a power while currently animating a power using the same animation. Since the bug is not exclusive to VEATs, it will require a wider fix that won't make page 7.

[LastHumanSoldier]

20 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

 

 

I wanna stress that I still see the current changes made as big step in the right direction, I just think we still need more. Almost every time I see a Bane these day's it's a Huntman who does not use the mace (or makes very little use of it), and while I don't want to weaken or discourage that playstyle, I think it's pretty telling about the state of Bane if it's less common then what should be a niche specialty build, and that's saying nothing about the amount of crabs vs bane. I just want to see it be the best it can be.

 

PS: Maceless Build up for Huntsman would be awesome

 

Riot Siren has said it better than I could. Did an hour test of my MACE Huntsman with the hope I could transition to a Full Bane. 
While the change to Venom Grenade is a huge win, and I will be using that right away once this goes live. I still need Frag Grenade to take the place of the Mace Beam AoEs.

They are flat 50% weaker and more awkward to use than the Gun (and now mace!) aoes.

 

[KaizenSoze]

Night Widow show case video:

 

[Lazarillo]

26 minutes ago, ViridianDev said:

What you're probably seeing here is if you're queueing Channelgun/alt anim Burst/Longfang while another is already animating; this is a known legacy animation bug that happens when you activate a power while currently animating a power using the same animation. Since the bug is not exclusive to VEATs, it will require a wider fix that won't make page 7.

It's entirely possible this is connected to a legacy bug (if I get a chance, I'll get on my live Crab and compare), but I don't think it has anything to do with attack animations, as what I'm seeing tends to be with powers used before engaging with combat, usually while running towards a mob and getting ready to attack, or when trying to catch an enemy that's moving away, stuff like that (which is the same as the Ice Slash issue, which is why I thought it might be related, and Ice Slash doesn't use the same animation as anything else in its set).

[ScarySai]

The more I play with night widow, the more I really want some manner of dealing with runners.

 

Because ya know, for fort I can basically just obliterate runners with dominate, gloom and the two nukes (aura + wail), widow, I have gloom, then it's up to hoping they line up for a psyscream.

 

Enhancable slows seem like an easy win for the widow attacks, but I'm not entirely sure it would actually solve the runner problem. Still, something should be done to alleviate the issue.

Edited January 21 by ScarySai

[Shazbotacus]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:33 PM, Riot Siren said:

I can also confirm, that Frag grenade not being fire-able from the mace is not a oversight, but intended.

 

I think sighting lore for why you can't shoot a frag grenade from a mace that already shoots two other forms of grenades is just silly, specially considering players are not tied to that lore. As of now on live you can already fire the frag grenade out of a Sniper rifle, a Sub machine gun, and a laser rifle, all of these makes less sense then a mace already known for firing grenades. If you want to encourage me to pick Mace Beam blast, make it comparable in effectiveness, otherwise I need to nerf myself if I want a specific ascetic that the whole sub class is designed around.

 

On the note of the mace beam attacks, at least from the numbers, outside of Poisonous Ray which is fine now, they all seem very lack luster still, I get we can't have too many good ranged attacks, but they seems rather pointless when you can just take the gun attacks which are still way better. It just strikes me as odd that the starting gun attacks are much better then the mace attacks that you specifically need to choose Bane to obtain, even Poisonous Ray is not nearly as good as Burst in most situations. To me these beam attacks are Iconic to the mace and really are what sets it apart from normal mace, and leaving them as the lesser options really does the class a disservice in terms of the class fantasy. I don't suspect this could be in the cards now, but if it's really that much of a balance issue to make most of the beam attacks decent, I would rather see them become mutually exclusive copies of rifle attacks that just do energy or toxic damage instead, in the same way Venom grenade is on crab (with old builds getting grandfathered in). That way Huntsman can keep their rifle attacks, and we don't overload the AT with good ranged options.

 

I wanna stress that I still see the current changes made as big step in the right direction, I just think we still need more. Almost every time I see a Bane these day's it's a Huntman who does not use the mace (or makes very little use of it), and while I don't want to weaken or discourage that playstyle, I think it's pretty telling about the state of Bane if it's less common then what should be a niche specialty build, and that's saying nothing about the amount of crabs vs bane. I just want to see it be the best it can be.

 

PS: Maceless Build up for Huntsman would be awesome

Considering that attacks are only good until you're using all your time on activating them, I don't think we need to worry about having "too many" attack powers.
I've been wanting these powers to stop being "trap picks." It may be more interesting to have them have a secondary gimmick, but the bottom line is I'd like powers like Heavy Burst to not be arbitrarily awful.

Edit: It'd really help peoples' themes if they can get the powers they want to suit them without having to worry about them being just second rate or utterly worthless.

Edited January 22 by Shazbotacus

[Dispari]

36 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The more I play with night widow, the more I really want some manner of dealing with runners.

 

One thing out of the Claws kit that Widows really lack is Focus. Would be neat if NWs got that power or something similar. Incidentally, NWs do get 6 fewer powers than Fortunatas. And they can't even double up on FU/BU like Forts can with FU/Aim. Definitely space for a couple powers. Just saying.

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, Dispari said:

 

One thing out of the Claws kit that Widows really lack is Focus. Would be neat if NWs got that power or something similar. Incidentally, NWs do get 6 fewer powers than Fortunatas. And they can't even double up on FU/BU like Forts can with FU/Aim. Definitely space for a couple powers. Just saying.

Should definitely allow FU+build up, but I'd like to see enhancable poisons and see if it at least somewhat helps keep runners from getting too far.

[Sovera]

I wonder if this is going to make better Sentinels than Sentinels

[Shazbotacus]

SoA have been better Sentinels than Sentinels since Sentinels were born 😂

[balor]

I have a question about a power that was not listed in the changes. 

 

But first, these are great in general—new Widow powers to deal with some of the issues of the power set is great. Improving the crit damage is huge, as I love my melee Widow, but I'm also learning to love it on my Huntsman. The cast time changes and other rebalances are welcome. You even addressed two big stinkers: Omega Maneuver and Confront.

Now, I'm not sure if it's because Pain Tolerance was added or the fact that there is a power that I have never seen anyone take in their builds. The community no longer complains about the power because they don't think it even exists; possibly, it is an urban legend. Why was Elude not updated, reworked, or made into anything besides that power that is never taken? I would take a smoke grenade over Elude, and at least I get a cool poof of smoke from it. Dev crew, please do something with Elude. Even if it is a big change or a different direction altogether, please make the final power out of Widow Teamwork worth considering vs something that is almost never taken.

99% of this is awesome and well done, but please take a moment to really have a hard look at Elude as a viable option versus being listed as an auto-pass power.

In the end, if nothing is done with Elude, well, it would not change much as we don't take it now, but everything else will be getting better in this update.

Now that I've complained, here are some very fast off-the-cuff options as a direction to consider. Keeping in the theme, this is a "Ruh-roh!" moment type of power.

• A passive or more balanced defensive buff – but we've got Pain Tolerance now, yahoo!
• Advanced Widow poisons – a two-part power. First, a passive bonus to all poison damage Damage Over Time (DOTs) (not the number of ticks but damage per tick). Second, on activation, for the next X number of seconds, all poison DOTs impose heavy debuffs in the form of -Accuracy, -ToHit, -Damage, maybe even a chance on tick for a 2-second hold in the form of the vomiting animation. 
• Lastly maybe a simple single-target debuff skill to avoid damage -Accuracy, -ToHit, -Damage, as simple examples.

Readers will likely think of something better right away, or even the dev team, but in the end, it would be nice to have this as a competitive choice. I believe you all could come up with something fitting to address Elude or that power slot.

 

[ScarySai]

48 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I wonder if this is going to make better Sentinels than Sentinels

 

They already were there. Even kheldians are better sentinels than sentinels!

[Dispari]

To be honest VEATs have always been incredibly powerful. I think it's only the theming that makes them so unpopular. Even the worst VEAT is better than several entire archetypes.

[Sovera]

37 minutes ago, Dispari said:

To be honest VEATs have always been incredibly powerful. I think it's only the theming that makes them so unpopular. Even the worst VEAT is better than several entire archetypes.

 

Well, that and having no heal, no endurance clickies, and being a mixed bag of melee and range. The lack of endurance tools in particular has always ended pushing me away. At least they have a CC toggle.

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, ScarySai said:

The more I play with night widow, the more I really want some manner of dealing with runners.

 

Because ya know, for fort I can basically just obliterate runners with dominate, gloom and the two nukes (aura + wail), widow, I have gloom, then it's up to hoping they line up for a psyscream.

 

Enhancable slows seem like an easy win for the widow attacks, but I'm not entirely sure it would actually solve the runner problem. Still, something should be done to alleviate the issue.

The Patron Pools have you covered for Immobilize if that's what you're after. I found that to also be the -only- downside when min/maxing the AT on the Night Widow side, but as you said, Fortunata's are well equipped and have their own Immobilize power to work with.