Focused Feedback: High-Level Circle of Thorns Revamp

[Wavicle]

That's ok. There have been a ton of improvements to the levelling game, so people who want to play as they level are going to have a good time. Those people that don't want to have plenty of options still available.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

I agree fully. I like this change. However I also expect more people begging for fire farms. 

Certainly.  But how high a percentage of lowbies that won't be able to run PI Radios will go straight to fire farms?  How many will instead gravitate towards more level appropriate radios?

That is, how many lowbies are running PI radios because much of the time there isn't much in the way of options?

[drbuzzard]

11 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Certainly.  But how high a percentage of lowbies that won't be able to run PI Radios will go straight to fire farms?  How many will instead gravitate towards more level appropriate radios?

That is, how many lowbies are running PI radios because much of the time there isn't much in the way of options?

 

There is absolutely no shortage of low level options unless you mean people not using them. Given that DFB recruitment is almost continual (on excelsior), it's hardly that either. People take spots on PI teams so they can rocket up in levels. Even on Indomitable, which is one of the least used servers, DFB gets run all the time. 

[Rimerat]

I like the changes, but I can see why many players won't.

 

For me personally, these changes do nothing to impact my success rate.

 

But I am also someone who spends most of their time leading public teams with randoms, and I am fully aware that there are tiers of players in this game. This isn't meant as an insult or a critique; just an observation. Many players don't visit the forums or discord. Many players don't know basic things like turning off your stealth aura on the rescue phase of certain missions. Many don't know that it's a bad idea to stack up on a near-dead Super Stunner... stuff like that.

 

Those players are the ones who are going to get buttblasted the most by these alterations. Not me, and not a good chunk of people who visit the forums.

 

Some people just play the game to relax and unwind. I don't think it's about powerleveling newbies. For me, at least, it's more about hanging out with other people in this online world, and a good amount of people who lead teams do so on their level 50 characters. This update is going to make it just a teeny bit more rough for me to invite anyone who shows up to my rando groups.

 

Is that going to be a good thing for the game and its community? I guess we'll have to see.

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

There is absolutely no shortage of low level options unless you mean people not using them

If there's absolutely no shortage...  then why did I bring up that there was a shortage?

Because there absolutely is a shortage.  It's gotten much better since the floodgates opened and we've gotten a cohort of players not infected with Homecoming's social meta, but it's still a problem.  There's absolutely a shortage of low level (I.E. not PI) teams (especially if you don't want to run endless Posis and Yins).
 

 

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

Given that DFB recruitment is almost continual (on excelsior), it's hardly that either.

Because there's diminishing returns on DFB as you level, it's not really relevant to the issue.

[Lunar Ronin]

42 minutes ago, Wiseguy said:

Is it going to be a good thing for the game and its community? I guess we'll have to see.

 

IMO, it will be.  Over the past five years, far too many people got it in their heads that the game is:

 

I can be carried from level one to level 50 by joining AE farms, PI radio teams, kill most +4 ITFs, and Rikti mothership raids and I don't really have to do anything.  Then at level 50, the real game begins.

[Rimerat]

21 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

IMO, it will be.  Over the past five years, far too many people got it in their heads that the game is:

 

I can be carried from level one to level 50 by joining AE farms, PI radio teams, kill most +4 ITFs, and Rikti mothership raids and I don't really have to do anything.  Then at level 50, the real game begins.

There will always be an easiest way to level to 50, and there will always be people who are trying to be as efficient as possible.

 

I genuinely hope that isn't the reason why they're doing these changes. I prefer to think it's just to make the enemy groups more interesting.

 

Leveling in city of heroes is a lot more enjoyable than other games; and there's a lot of content between 1-50 to do, but personally I think it's fine if some or even most people like racing to 50. I can play how I want, they can play how they want; these changes aren't going to alter that, and I'd hesitate to even call them a first step in addressing that.

[drbuzzard]

33 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

If there's absolutely no shortage...  then why did I bring up that there was a shortage?

Because there absolutely is a shortage.  It's gotten much better since the floodgates opened and we've gotten a cohort of players not infected with Homecoming's social meta, but it's still a problem.  There's absolutely a shortage of low level (I.E. not PI) teams (especially if you don't want to run endless Posis and Yins).
 

 

Because there's diminishing returns on DFB as you level, it's not really relevant to the issue.

 

You don't read very carefully. There is no shortage of options, there's a shortage of people using those options. That is not really something the development team can fix. People want the easy way, and will find it. Blaming the developers for that is like blaming them for water being wet. You're saying there's a shortage because people are using easier options to effectively get power leveled. Hell, a bunch of players would probably like to just have the freebies menu available on live. 

 

DFB is absolutely relevant to the issue. It gets you to 11 or so very quickly and easily. Sure, you could play arcs at that level as well, but some people (me included) don't like the low levels since your options and abilities are very limited. After you do a posi 1+2 and you're looking at 20. That's just the path I favor. There are plenty of story arcs in the range as well, some of them of fairly modern vintage as well. You don't need to go suffer in the Hollows. 

 

For the 20s there's Striga, Faultline, and half of Croatoa. There is no shortage of low to mid level content. With double XP option on, low level content takes no appreciable time. Hell they even made SOs available all the way down. 

 

Though DFB is actually especially relevant to this. When HC first started up, there was no diminishing returns on DFB so people would ride it all the way to 50. I can't imagine indulging in such tedium, but then I can't stand door sitting in fire farms either. They killed that option with those diminishing returns for a reason. 

 

I'm not sure what your point may actually be, other than complaining about human nature applies to games, but the changes are a good thing. Enemies at high level should not be punching bags. 

[drbuzzard]

OK, since the stalker was a bit out an edge case (not exactly the most popular AT) I decided let's try driving a tank through the shiny new CoT. Tank build is radiation armor/dark melee. The goal was first to attain 90% resistance to as much as possible (basically all but cold and psi). Then I chased recharge hard to get soul drain up as often as possible to be a self buffer. Given that I had the purple tanker proc in place and used it a lot, I was likely 90% resistant to everything pretty often. 

 

I had run this tank on a LGTF 1*  a while back, but I was rushed to finish the build as people were waiting. I was able to respec and get things done right this time, so it was quite optimized and fully decked out in t4 incarnate. 

 

I took him for a test drive in PI. First mission was CoT minus the bosses (solo bosses off setting) at +2x8. Radiation armor is one of the toughest sets, and I built this tank to be optimally tough (to my way of seeing it). Things got a bit hairy at times, but nothing I couldn't handle. Cold damage is rough on a rad tank, and those ice demons do hand it out generously. The stacking debuffs were also no picnic. I liberally used my heals to keep standing. 

 

Next mission was CoT again, but this time I cranked it to +4/x8 (still no bosses). This got a whole lot more hairly with many moments of being locked down in terror, or confusion. Nonetheless I was able to keep up use of the heals, absorb, or barrier to stay standing. 

 

Last of the missions I ran was CoT at +4/x8 with bosses on. This one finally got me killed and had to do the walk of shame back from the hospital (ok flight of shame). I did finish the mission, but an optimized radiation armor tank gives new CoT the thumbs up for no longer being a joke. On a team the tank would have had the support to do the job without inordinate trouble (assuming support had powers and slotting). 

 

Edited February 5 by drbuzzard

[Tigraine]

1 hour ago, Lunar Ronin said:

 

IMO, it will be.  Over the past five years, far too many people got it in their heads that the game is:

 

I can be carried from level one to level 50 by joining AE farms, PI radio teams, kill most +4 ITFs, and Rikti mothership raids and I don't really have to do anything.  Then at level 50, the real game begins.

 

These changes aren't going to alter that perspective; there are people who treat every MMO this way, and they're not going to magically disappear just because some enemy groups are a bit tougher than they were.  All that these changes are going to do is push more of those people to doing AE farms instead of PI radios.  At the same time, the changes create a greater annoyance for other players who preferred a more casual/less stressful experience at those levels (particularly solo players).

[Wavicle]

Testing the content on a t4, IOd out monster is fine, but I’m a little more curious what it’s like on +1/x2 with only SOs.

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Testing the content on a t4, IOd out monster is fine, but I’m a little more curious what it’s like on +1/x2 with only SOs.

 

I never play on SOs, and really don't want to have to think in those terms, so I'll leave that testing to others. 

[strix_]

6 hours ago, Tigraine said:

 

These changes aren't going to alter that perspective; there are people who treat every MMO this way, and they're not going to magically disappear just because some enemy groups are a bit tougher than they were.  All that these changes are going to do is push more of those people to doing AE farms instead of PI radios.  At the same time, the changes create a greater annoyance for other players who preferred a more casual/less stressful experience at those levels (particularly solo players).

 

Wholly agree with this, it's inordinately damaging to casual/solo players for next to no benefit. Love the idea of giving the CoT more enemy variety (the critiques of them being balanced upside down in live is pr much true lol), but the current implementation of that in the beta isn't the play.

In a broader sense, it's also damaging to try and shunt the power-levellers towards AE farms? Say what you want about MSR/PI radios, but at least those put power-levelling players into going through content where they might learn fundamentals of the game from other players or catch story content that gets them invested in the setting or characters. I know when I was first learning the game, I caught most of the basics of knockback/knockdown and how CC works in this game through doing MSR for the rewards. Changes that push newer players towards passively door-guarding in AE fire farms against generic enemies in the same three environments is ultimately a net negative for keeping those players invested in learning the game, esp. if they're being incentivised to do that by more established players who wouldn't see dragging them through 50 content as valuable if these changes get implemented.

Edited February 5 by strix_

[Coyotedancer]

'Just tossing out another reminder here, like I did in the Council thread...

 

The majority of this change DOESN'T just affect level 50 characters or level 50 content.

None of it is limited to radio missions or power-leveling teams.

 

With the exception of the new Blizzard and Magma thorn casters, this is going to hit everyone running Circle content of *any* kind starting at 36+ and 46+. That means a lot of non-Incarnates with incomplete builds running regular content, and not just our tricked-out T4 nightmares and their smash-teams. 

 

That's one of the reasons I keep harping on the layered Tar Patches being a step too far. They're not going to slow down the high-end teams at all. They're going to eat the low-end people just running arcs for Unai or Harvey alive. 

[SwitchFade]

4 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

'Just tossing out another reminder here, like I did in the Council thread...

 

The majority of this change DOESN'T just affect level 50 characters or level 50 content.

None of it is limited to radio missions or power-leveling teams.

 

With the exception of the new Blizzard and Magma thorn casters, this is going to hit everyone running Circle content of *any* kind starting at 36+ and 46+. That means a lot of non-Incarnates with incomplete builds running regular content, and not just our tricked-out T4 nightmares and their smash-teams. 

 

That's one of the reasons I keep harping on the layered Tar Patches being a step too far. They're not going to slow down the high-end teams at all. They're going to eat the low-end people just running arcs for Unai or Harvey alive. 

This.

 

Add to that blue caves...

 

Yeesh.

[drbuzzard]

OK, I gave in and made a SO version of the tank (kept the T4 incarnates because I was too lazy to remove them, but didn't use them much at all). After the rebuild (2nd build) I don't think I capped any resistances (best was toxic in the 80s). 

 

Took him for a test drive with the +4x8 settings. He melted in the first group. OK, maybe it was a bit tough for a solo tank. Let's try +1x4. This went well enough with me fighting each spawn effectively and not getting into extreme trouble. I'd have to pop heals, but overall, it was no bid deal. I did get whacked when I aggroed 2 groups at once. 

 

So are these balanced for SOs? Depends on what the balancing point is, but a tank without any support could do +0x4 (I was incarnate shifted) without inordinate trouble. On a team with some support it would be doable. Given how many sets offer bonus resistance these days (sonic, thermal, pain dom, electric, nature) it would be pretty smooth sailing. Though I've not had much luck finding teams on test to find out for certain. Clearly it is not balanced for +4x8 with SOs, nor should it be. 

 

 

Edited February 6 by drbuzzard

[Coyotedancer]

Did that one have the bosses turned on?

As I mentioned up-thread, I managed them pretty well with a mostly-SOed Brute, for what it's worth... I tend to test at +1x4, too, with bosses.

 

At anything below about x6, where the doubled-up MoDeath Mages start to show up, I suspect the tougher ATs will be fine... If they have a reasonably solid foundation with those SOs and their player has some experience dealing with tougher content, anyway. Brutes and Tanks will survive. Scraps and Stalkers will hate them a bit more... Sentinels and Masterminds, if my own "finished" MM's run was any indication, are in for some pain. I have no concept of what soloing these guys with an SOed Blaster, a control-type or a Defender will be like. Probably a mess... 

 

[drbuzzard]

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Did that one have the bosses turned on?

As I mentioned up-thread, I managed them pretty well with a mostly-SOed Brute, for what it's worth... I tend to test at +1x4, too, with bosses.

 

I think the bosses were on, though I should check. 

 

I've got a sentinel or two on test I could try out as well. I think they would fare OK if careful. Granted tar patch and hover blasting does not mix so that could be trouble. 

[Sovera]

15 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

OK, I gave in and made a SO version of the tank (kept the T4 incarnates because I was too lazy to remove them, but didn't use them much at all). After the rebuild (2nd build) I don't think I capped any resistances (best was toxic in the 80s). 

 

Took him for a test drive with the +4x8 settings. He melted in the first group. OK, maybe it was a bit tough for a solo tank. Let's try +1x4. This went well enough with me fighting each spawn effectively and not getting into extreme trouble. I'd have to pop heals, but overall, it was no bid deal. I did get whacked when I aggroed 2 groups at once. 

 

So are these balanced for SOs? Depends on what the balancing point is, but a tank without any support could do +0x4 (I was incarnate shifted) without inordinate trouble. On a team with some support it would be doable. Given how many sets offer bonus resistance these days (sonic, thermal, pain dom, electric, nature) it would be pretty smooth sailing. Though I've not had much luck finding teams on test to find out for certain. Clearly it is not balanced for +4x8 with SOs, nor should it be.

 

 

I also think that this should be... normal. The way it should be. In my opinion at least. Even with SOs it's one character going against a difficulty meant for 4 other people in the team. A character equipped solely with SOs should NOT be tackling +3x8 content since they are basically dressed in rags and with a rusty sword to their name.

 

 

What I'm going to say next is not going to be news to anyone who has played the game for a while but I'll type it in regardless for context:

 

What you have described is what I (painfully) learned the first time(s) I started doing 'no inf, no IO transfer' self challenges. I had grown so used to having all the money needed to buy all the expensive IOs, so used to just hit my base and transfer all the expensive stuff into my tray and load them up at the appropriate level, that the first time I loaded with generics instead I was, 'but wait, I rave about my Fire Armor Tanker's  damage and survivability' but I'm whittling mobs and trying to go x4 at level 5 (or when an AoE opens) lead to quick death.

 

I had to relearn the game and go gentle into x3 (because Tanker so naturally resilient) and only tentatively dip into x4 as I earned enough money to start buying the first expensive IOs. It took reaching something like level 30+ for a combination of enough slots and earning money to progress to x6 and eventually x8 at 40+. And that's with earning enough money to buy the expensive IOs which spoils the comparison with your test, but still

 

 

Honestly I'm not against this progression but I'm a lil nut who likes the zero-to-hero. I can start right away as the son of Superman and so strong I'm bulldozing (IO transfers) or start as something more humble and claw my way up. But that's me I'm still talking about.

 

For a new player this is the incentive (IMO) to progress outside their safe bubble where they interact little with others, don't want to mess with the auction house, don't want to craft. That's fine, they can play with SOs, but they will find their ceiling at x4 or x5 and rarely higher than +2. And at that point as they see others bulldozing content they will want to know how on earth are they doing it and how to improve their builds.

Edited February 7 by Sovera

[drbuzzard]

Since someone wondered about softer things than tanks and stalkers (not that stalkers are all that durable, but whatever), I figured I'd do sentinels since those were mentioned as soft soloists (which belies my experience, but again, whatever). 

 

Took a lvl 50 electric/regen sentinel through a number of CoT missions in PI. 

 

First run was sentinel decked out with full on optimized build (few places probably could have been improved, but it was close, I was lazy). Incarnate powers were all T4.

 

Took them into a CoT run at +4x8 bosses on. I was able to clear single spawns, but had to use incarnate powers (barrier and judgement mostly). I died two times in there, once when I was out of healing options or barrier, and too much damage was incoming. I wasn't using inspirations as much as I should have, so I could have done better. Second time was aggroing a second spawn and that was that. The mission did get finished without any huge hiccups, as I just had to wait for second wind to recharge. 

 

Made a second build with SOs. Ick. I'm so used to making sentinel IO builds, this just felt a bit odd. Nonetheless off I went to vanquish foes. Set things for +1x4( w/bosses) with no incarnate powers in my tray (so just T4 alpha core musculature, and the auto power part of hybrid assault). I was able to beat up the groups easy enough. I think it was easier than on the tank. The ability to drop the nuke on a spawn before they know you're coming does a nice job of cleaning up the riffraff. When there were too many spawns in close proximity I would pop some lucks. Overall, there were no complaints. Again if we assume +0x4 is a reasonable balance point for SOs, things are working as intended. 

[Coyotedancer]

35 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Since someone wondered about softer things than tanks and stalkers (not that stalkers are all that durable, but whatever), I figured I'd do sentinels since those were mentioned as soft soloists (which belies my experience, but again, whatever). 

 

Took a lvl 50 electric/regen sentinel through a number of CoT missions in PI. 

 

First run was sentinel decked out with full on optimized build (few places probably could have been improved, but it was close, I was lazy). Incarnate powers were all T4.

 

Took them into a CoT run at +4x8 bosses on. I was able to clear single spawns, but had to use incarnate powers (barrier and judgement mostly). I died two times in there, once when I was out of healing options or barrier, and too much damage was incoming. I wasn't using inspirations as much as I should have, so I could have done better. Second time was aggroing a second spawn and that was that. The mission did get finished without any huge hiccups, as I just had to wait for second wind to recharge. 

 

Made a second build with SOs. Ick. I'm so used to making sentinel IO builds, this just felt a bit odd. Nonetheless off I went to vanquish foes. Set things for +1x4( w/bosses) with no incarnate powers in my tray (so just T4 alpha core musculature, and the auto power part of hybrid assault). I was able to beat up the groups easy enough. I think it was easier than on the tank. The ability to drop the nuke on a spawn before they know you're coming does a nice job of cleaning up the riffraff. When there were too many spawns in close proximity I would pop some lucks. Overall, there were no complaints. Again if we assume +0x4 is a reasonable balance point for SOs, things are working as intended. 

 

I said Tanks and BRUTES would be fine. Stalkers and Scraps probably, too... Though they might have to be a little more cagey about it.  Until you get to the point of potential double Tar Patches, the melee ATs should be able to handle these goons.

 

On the Live side, Sents in my experience vary *a lot* depending on the secondary, the build and how they're played. Running a tricked-out Dark/WP is like driving a glacier. (That is to say, slower than Christmas, but with very little the goons can do to stop him-) My Fire/Regen? She's much faster clearing, but also has to be more careful., even with a pretty decent build and full set of iToys.. The former plays like a ranged scrap, while the later is more like a tough blaster.  That difference would matter a fair bit when it comes to how they handle these particular mobs, I think. I don't have any non-50, non-IOed Sents of my own to try out with the new Circle on Test, though, so it's just a guess based on how these goons work in general. 

 

The other AT I've run with them is a Mastermind. I know exactly what those exploding magi can do to the minions... That's why I said they'll find the group painful. Without experience driving a Mastermind (Knowing how and when to use movement key binds to direct the minions, for instance-), Incarnate powers and a solid build to back their gang up, it has the potential to get messy pretty fast.

 

Has anyone tried soloing these guys yet with a 'Troller or a Kheldian? I'd love to know what someone who can drive a Warshade (Which definitely *isn't* me. I have zero talent keeping even an MFing 'Shade build alive. 😝 ) thinks of them.

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Coyotedancer

[WindDemon21]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:25 PM, drbuzzard said:

 

This is fully dependent on how many characters of significant level and equippage are on the team. Too many lowbies and they won't be able to do squat and things will go sideways. Even teams with lobwies now can steamroll CoT and council. Those lowbies often are using prestige powers for much of their attack chain. This won't cut it anymore. 

 

Again, I don't think that's a bad thing. The enemies at 50 shouldn't be a joke. 

I'm still going to plant my foot that this ruins a pretty big core fun aspect of the game. Right now, yes literally all other enemies/missions are tougher than the current cot/council, and that's entirely fine. I quite enjoy bringing a lowbie and buffing them so they can kill them for fun and see what that part of the game is like. Now a very core enjoyment of the game is being taken away and it's just a really bad move IMO. Please keep them the same in at least radios. Harder in anything else is fine, but radios should keep them as is.

[Sovera]

42 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'm still going to plant my foot that this ruins a pretty big core fun aspect of the game. Right now, yes literally all other enemies/missions are tougher than the current cot/council, and that's entirely fine. I quite enjoy bringing a lowbie and buffing them so they can kill them for fun and see what that part of the game is like. Now a very core enjoyment of the game is being taken away and it's just a really bad move IMO. Please keep them the same in at least radios. Harder in anything else is fine, but radios should keep them as is.

 

You can bring your friend and run the mission at +1.

 

I can read the subtext that the friend will not be getting as much XP but since you avoided using that meter and spoke only of enjoyment then the bashing faces of fashos is there still.

 

Now if people would stop dancing around the subject that lowering the difficulty will bring fewer rewards we could have a more honest conversation about this, but I keep hearing about 'turn off brain fun activity' and 'bring lowbies', and those activities are the same at +1 as they are at +4.

 

 

Not pointing fingers as I don't have a dog in this race, but if only we could have a more honest 'lucrative turn off brain fun activity' and 'bring lowbies to reap phat XP' we'd be on firmer grounds of discussion.

[Wavicle]

NO level 40-50 content should be brainless. NONE. That people consider fighting these groups brainless is the BEST possible argument for why they SHOULD be buffed.

[Coyotedancer]

I know it'll cause certain people to clutch their pearls and gasp in horror at the very idea... but I still say if you want a mindless bash-fest, that's one of the things that AE farms are really great for. There are also always the "classic" old-school bash maps from Tina and Unai's arcs. Keep a copy of the Axis Earth mission or Freak World or Harvey's Praetorian demons map on characters that like to lead smash teams and just tell people not to click the glowies (or kill the last group in the demons' case-) when you go in and clear the place. Many players did that in the days before AE was a thing. 

 

I'm a lot more concerned about the impact on solos, and on the under-50/unfinished-build/non-Incarnate types who are running regular mission arcs against these goons than I am about power-leveling lowbies. Radio smash teams are fun and popular, but they're not the only way to do that.  

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by Coyotedancer