Bring Back Leveling Pacts

[Rudra]

Per the wiki, leveling pacts were disabled back in Issue 21 because it was felt the sidekick system accomplished the leveling pact's purpose. I have to say, it doesn't. My friend and I both started brand new characters today. Our goal? Progress them together. We couldn't enter a leveling pact because they don't exist any more. (She tried. It failed.) Doing the first story arc in Mercy Island, we get to the blow up the Longbow base mission. We started everything at the same time, camping out in our base until we were ready to run the missions, and neither of us have any explore badges yet to explain what happened. Her MM hit level 3 while we were fighting Golden Palm and Sergeant Whoever. My Dominator was still a half level behind her, fighting the exact same enemies, in the exact same missions. (Her MM hit level 2 before my Dominator did by 2 fights before we even entered that mission.) Please, bring back the leveling pact. I don't really want to have to end every game session we run through waiting for her to log off and then running around street sweeping mobs until my level is caught up again.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Rudra

[SeraphimKensai]

My understanding is that they had them on intially but that they were having unintentional stress on the servers so they were disabled.

[Uun]

One of you must be using an xp booster (or a different xp booster). If you were higher than level 10 it could also be that one of you was defeated more often and had debt. My SG has been running leveling teams for years. Everybody rolls a new character and plays together 1 night per week until everyone hits 50.  Generally, everyone is within a few bars of each other the whole way and we all hit 50 in the same session. 

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Uun said:

One of you must be using an xp booster (or a different xp booster).

No. We were already playing on other characters. We went into our SG base when we finished duo'ing our TF. Our intent was to only discuss what characters we were going to make at the time, because we were also planning on coordinating bios. She actually made her character idea (without bio) to show me what her character was going to look like, and we spent a little time tweaking her appearance. She chose one of the 3 character ideas I had been tinkering with during the week, so I made that character and met her in the base again. I already had the costume pre-saved, the origin pre-selected, and the starting powers pre-chosen. So it took me almost literally no time to get back in game with my new character. She had been waiting in the base the entire time. Then we teamed and did the first Mercy arc. No explore badges gotten, and she never went to Pocket D and grabbed an XP booster. And she was upset that she leveled first. Then more upset when our XP gap got even wider in the instance. I can guarantee no XP boosters were used.

 

5 hours ago, Uun said:

If you were higher than level 10 it could also be that one of you was defeated more often and had debt.

We were both brand new level 1 characters with no inf' to either of our names. Neither of us were defeated. (Seriously, can you even be defeated in the first arc from Kuzmin(?) without standing there and trying to be?) We both fought the same Longbow for mission 1. We both fought the same Technicians for mission 2. We both fought the same enemies in the instance. She got to level 2 a whole 2 fights before I did. She got to level 3 a whole half level before I did. The only thing we didn't do the same? Was on the place the bombs outside the base mission. She placed the bombs while I dropped the Longbow attacking her.

[kelika2]

Just ask your friend to be cool.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Just ask your friend to be cool.

What does that have to do with anything? *I* do not want to have to at the end of our gaming sessions wait for her to log off and then run around defeating mobs until I'm caught up. And if our roles were reversed? She can only play 2 days a week for an hour at a time, which would have put her in a worse situation. And when we aren't pairing those characters, there are a plethora of other characters I prefer to be running solo*, both already made and stewing in my mind waiting to be made. And setting that aside? How are we even leveling at different rates while teamed and doing the exact same things? That is the issue I want to resolve by bringing back leveling pacts. That a couple of friends can make characters and have them run around together, leveling together, growing together, and not being reduced to a sidekick on a character that did everything at the same time as the other character because XP isn't for whatever reason being awarded equally.

 

(Edit: The whole point of what we are doing is because usually she is the one playing catch up while I retread the same thing so she can be caught up while we team. And for at least one time, we are trying to do things simultaneously and help each other progress. Together. Simultaneously.)

 

Edit again:

* - Dominators are not an AT I typically enjoy running. Since our characters are always going to be together, or were supposed to be until I had to make up for unequal XP awards, we both decided to try something outside of our norms.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Rudra

[Uun]

Very strange. I've been done at least 7 leveling teams over the past 3 years and never seen that. Try it for a few more levels and see if it doesn't even out. Also, as long as the higher level person has the star, the lower level person will earn more xp until they level up.

[SwitchFade]

Is one of you using a confuse power?

 

Is one of you logged out for longer, causing more bars of 'experienced'?

 

Might be interesting to conduct test cases, where one MOB is arrested in different ways to test exp gain, such as one person arrests while the other is passive, switch arrestor, both contribute, etc.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Is one of you using a confuse power?

I'm an Elec'/Elec' Dom'. My powers at the time were Tesla Cage and Charged Bolts. She's a Beast Mastery/Empathy MM. Her powers at the time were a Howler Wolf and Healing Aura. So no confuses.

 

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Is one of you logged out for longer, causing more bars of 'experienced'?

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

We were both brand new level 1 characters with no inf' to either of our names. Neither of us were defeated.

 

 

 

[Greycat]

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Per the wiki, leveling pacts were disabled back in Issue 21 because it was felt the sidekick system accomplished the leveling pact's purpose.

 

Leveling pacts were pretty much always buggy, randomly broke and were generally problematic. I don't recall sidekicking having anything to do with it.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Greycat said:

19 hours ago, Rudra said:

Per the wiki, leveling pacts were disabled back in Issue 21 because it was felt the sidekick system accomplished the leveling pact's purpose.

 

Leveling pacts were pretty much always buggy, randomly broke and were generally problematic. I don't recall sidekicking having anything to do with it.

"A Leveling Pact is a feature introduced in Issue 13 (and disabled in Issue 21 after changes to the Sidekick system had reduced the need for it)"

Copied directly from the HC wiki. https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Leveling_Pact

 

(Edit: It says the same thing on the archived Paragonwiki. https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Leveling_Pact)

Edited December 24, 2023 by Rudra

[Akisan]

Some glowies also provide a (small) amount of Inf and/or XP to the person collecting them.  It's very possible that the early difference was because she disarmed the bombs (xp for her only), while you defeated the attacking Longbow (xp for both of you). That early in the game, 25 xp for each of 3 glowies could be a couple of fights' worth.

 

It may be that all you have to do to stay even is occasionally changing who grabs the glowies. (unless someone's behind, then they get the glowies)

 

And yes, Level Pacts would be great to have back, but if they're dangerously buggy, I'm not sure it'd be worth the extra frustration.

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Akisan
Someday, I will remember to proofread my posts before posting.

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Akisan said:

Some glowies also provide a (small) amount of Inf and/or XP to the person collecting them.  It's very possible that the early difference was because she disarmed the bombs (xp for her only), while you defeated the attacking Longbow (xp for both of you). That early in the game, 25 xp for each of 3 glowies could be a couple of fights' worth.

I thought about that, so I made a random character and tried the arc solo to test them. The glowies are worth exactly nothing. They grant no XP reward at all.

[Ghost]

Hate to tell you this buddy, but she’s been cheating on you.

😈

[TheZag]

There is a topic somewhere about team leaders and team members getting different amounts of xp rewarded for some mission completions.  I bet this is what happened to you.

 

[biostem]

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I can't help getting past how many people would probably just use leveling pacts to level up an alt on another account without having to dual-box...

[lemming]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I can't help getting past how many people would probably just use leveling pacts to level up an alt on another account without having to dual-box...

Naw.  Account A will have Character Z level pact with Account B Character W and Account A Character Y level pact with Account B Character X

 

Then have Char Z play with Char X.   So, all four go up at the same rate.  (And probably power leveled by an char on account C)

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I can't help getting past how many people would probably just use leveling pacts to level up an alt on another account without having to dual-box...

I get that. However, I need to point out they aren't actually saving any time doing so. The XP gained is halved between the level pacted characters. Which would double the time it takes to power level the character getting power leveled from the leveling pact. And if they have both characters from the leveling pact in the farm being power leveled at the same time? It still boils down to the same rate of XP gain for having them both in the farm without being level pacted.

 

Edit: As for @lemming's comment? Sure, but like I said in regards to @biostem's comment, they won't be saving any time doing so. If Account C power levels Character Z from Account A and Character X from Account B, Character Z and Character X will progress half as fast as they would if they weren't level pacted. Even with P2W's x2 XP bonus. If defeated Mob N grants Y XP to every member of the team, Character Z and Character X both have the P2W double XP buff, and they are level pacted to Character W and Character Y, then Character X and Character Z would each actually get 2Y/2 (which simplifies to just Y) for XP. Whereas if they weren't level pacted, they would get 2Y XP. So the only time they would lose is however long it would take them to log off the max level character and swap to another, which can be as little as 0 seconds to log off depending on where they are, like AE or Pocket D. (And if Character Z and Character W were both present in the farm? Then they would each get 2(2Y/2), or just 2Y after simplification, just as if they weren't level pacted and both were in the farm.)

Edited December 26, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

55 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I get that. However, I need to point out they aren't actually saving any time doing so. The XP gained is halved between the level pacted characters. Which would double the time it takes to power level the character getting power leveled from the leveling pact. And if they have both characters from the leveling pact in the farm being power leveled at the same time? It still boils down to the same rate of XP gain for having them both in the farm without being level pacted.

You aren't taking into account that this would level 2 characters up without the need to dual-box and whilst only taking up 1 spot on a farm.  It would also permit 1 easy to level/more self-sufficient character to level up a character that is much less so, again without needing to dual-box, etc...

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

You aren't taking into account that this would level 2 characters up without the need to dual-box and whilst only taking up 1 spot on a farm.  It would also permit 1 easy to level/more self-sufficient character to level up a character that is much less so, again without needing to dual-box, etc...

To the contrary, I don't see it granting any better benefits than dual-boxing. It will still take twice as long to power level a level pacted character as it would to power the same character outside of a leveling pact. Especially since if the player in question is not doing the power leveling for the sake of avoiding dual-boxing, that level pacted character is going to wind up on a full team being power leveled. (While there is a possibility of a smaller team, the farmers I've met gather full teams so as to not waste their own time.) So either the player in question still has to multi-box, or they will spend as much time getting that one level pacted character to 50 as (s)he would be getting both characters leveled to 50 outside of a leveling pact. So, I don't see a difference. No matter how you approach a level pacted character, that character cannot under any circumstances get any more than half the XP (s)he/it would get if not in a leveling pact without the level pacted character also being present. Which means that both characters have to be present to get equal XP to the other characters on the team in the farm.

 

Edit: And it isn't like a level pact is going to change how inept or skillful the player in question will be with those characters. They would both be getting power leveled even without the leveling pact, so the player would be just as inept with them with or without the leveling pact.

 

Edit again: Look at it this way, using the claim that players can get a brand new level 1 character to level 50 in 3 hours getting power leveled, which I don't believe but is the claim, then it will take that level pacted character 6 hours to get to level 50. As opposed to 6 hours to get each character power leveled to 50 being power leveled individually outside of the leveling pact. The difference is being level pacted, it takes twice as long for getting half XP, while not being level pacted, it takes the normal amount of time for each character, resulting in the same 6 hours.

 

Edit yet again: And while the x2 XP buff is applied to the earned XP before it is halved, so is any debt the earning character has. So it is possible for there to be 0 XP transferred to the level pacted character.

 

Edit yet again redux: As for a more self-sufficient character being able to level up a much less so character without having to dual-box? What is the difference between that and just planting the other character in a farm and getting leveled that way? No need to dual-box. Just join a farm, personally do anything else, and enjoy while your character is getting leveled. Just make sure to track when the mission ends so you can exit for the next one.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

48 minutes ago, Rudra said:

To the contrary, I don't see it granting any better benefits than dual-boxing.

It's about *not needing* to dual-box, outside of initially creating the level-pact.  Oftentimes, convenience trumps speed, and not everyone cares about level speed over all else.  Even then, it's easier to get 1 character on a farm or into a situation where they can gain XP very quickly...

[Rudra]

54 minutes ago, biostem said:

It's about *not needing* to dual-box, outside of initially creating the level-pact.  Oftentimes, convenience trumps speed, and not everyone cares about level speed over all else.  Even then, it's easier to get 1 character on a farm or into a situation where they can gain XP very quickly...

Players don't currently need to dual-box right now as is. There are constant farms going. That is one of the reasons I remove the LFG chat from all my chat tabs. Whether other players choose to be power leveled or not isn't my business. Nor is it yours. They are already doing so. And they are already doing so single-boxing, dual-boxing, triple-boxing, even quad-boxing in some cases, as they see fit. Bringing back leveling pacts is not going to change that any more than not bringing back leveling pacts.

 

Players that want to just skip to level 50 are going to do so no matter what you or I do. They are already doing so. And as a matter of convenience? The leveling pact is not the god bullet you seem to think it is. Take a level pacted character into a fire farm. Sit at the entrance. Level up two characters at the same pace it takes you to level up two characters normally for all I care. They are already doing that. What is the leveling pact going to change that isn't happening already other than letting two players that want to progress together do so? It will let players single-box their way to level 50 by just sitting in a farm on two characters in one window? Oh no. What are we going to do? I mean, they are already AFK leveling those characters. There are players that are single-boxing their way to level 50 right this very second as I type this post on their umpteenth character, and as soon as that character is 50, they are going to swap to another character and do the exact same thing. In many cases? Immediately after the current getting power leveled character hits 50. No down time. I've seen players do that. So what is bringing back the leveling pact going to do? Those players are still going to devote the exact same amount of time leveling those two characters regardless of whether they are level pacted or not. I don't understand your opposition at all.

 

Edit: Look, bringing back leveling pacts is not going to provide a better way to power level. Players will still have to devote the same amount of time and effort to get their two characters power leveled while in a leveling pact as they do currently with just one. Nothing is going to change on that front even with the return of leveling pacts. It's more convenient to be able to single-box two characters to 50 at twice the time it takes to single box a single character to 50? That's still twice as long before they can start trying to earn inf' on either of those characters and make them playable other than just sitting there and AFK leveling. That's still at least twice as long before either of those characters will see any real play time. So that's twice as long before they can finally try out their brand new never been played level 50 character. That doesn't sound very convenient to me.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Rudra

[SeraphimKensai]

Here's a few related links:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given that I don't see Leveling Pacts coming back, as it would apparently take someone to step up and re-code them to get them working. Then again I could be wrong but I think given the super sidekick system, the need for them is substantially less than it was with the original sidekick system.

 

I'm not opposed to them being fixed and reinstated, but like I said I don't see it being a high priority.

[lemming]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I'm not opposed to them being fixed and reinstated, but like I said I don't see it being a high priority.

That's my view as well,  Even with my pointing out the possible abuse which isn't really that big of a deal.

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Here's a few related links:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given that I don't see Leveling Pacts coming back, as it would apparently take someone to step up and re-code them to get them working. Then again I could be wrong but I think given the super sidekick system, the need for them is substantially less than it was with the original sidekick system.

 

I'm not opposed to them being fixed and reinstated, but like I said I don't see it being a high priority.

I can accept that they were causing undue stress on the servers like @SeraphimKensai said. I can accept that they were buggy, randomly broke, and generally problematic like @Greycat said. I fully understand that even if they were to be brought back, it would be a low priority and they apparently need to be fixed before then. All of that I can accept. It's like Patrol XP. Something I have to live with. (Though at least this situation doesn't make me want to scream, cry, and give up the way Patrol XP does.) What I can't accept is the statement that leveling pacts need to stay gone because it will allow players to single-box their way to level 50 via power leveling with 2 characters instead of 1. Especially since leveling pacts can only be entered into by characters level 5 or under, and both characters have to be present at the same time at the same place to even enter the leveling pact, which requires the said player to dual-box anyway.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "way".