Redside... Best side? Right??

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, Paradox Fate said:

 

What I am shown when I talked to him on level 30 on the Slot Machine:

 

Seems he still requires the 'Gangbuster' badge.

Then I sit corrected. However, he does show up as a popup introduced contact periodically on my characters, and I'm not aware of most of them having that badge.

[SaxyGuitar]

So this is something I think about often, and these are some things that have come to mind.

 

A SF in Port Oaks is an important one. Especially if that sf did a couple of things. First unlocked a contact for you to do after (like the Radio). This would help smooth content together. And second have a big rng reward at the end like Dr Aeon. Nothing crazy big maybe a random Attune enhancement (AT, Event, or otherwise)?

 

Another one is bank heist giving good inf. I just rob a bank in a city FILLED with heroes that want to stop me. Lore wise this doesn't successfully happen every day. My name should get a big boost from that.

 

Also I feel like the merit to effect ratio could use a rework. This is something I've consider graphing out one day to see if it's true. But it feels that way.

 

I enjoy redside. I've told myself I'm going to form more redside content this year. And I'm at less seeing people transferring to red for a little bit to team with me on Indomitable.

[kelika2]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:48 PM, Dev Unitas said:

 I'd simply like to ask why people personally think this is

Whats it called when freshly hatched ducklings attach to a human due to first introduction?  I wish Imprintation was a word.  Because thats it.

 

In World of Warcraft people love Classic to death, less like TBC and less WOTLK

In second anecdote people loved the vanilla and didnt care as much as chocolate because chocolate leads to marshmallows... or strawberry.

 

-- enter tldr zone --

 

I do not care at all about stories in MMOs. I always forget, misremember or only remember certain bits like Countess Crey having visible nipples_through_clothing and getting killed and replaced by a lookalike.  That said I do not remember what I did with The Radio or the Television or the dude in the cartruck in any amount of detail without googling it.  Wanna know the only SSA I can recall offhand?  The one with the fake nem farms.  Thats it.  Oh and the one where superman dies

 

I love MMOs for the grind and rpg growth feelgoodtimes.  Hitting up a nice smooth non-speed synapes at level 15 but leaving at level 28.  or doing it as the wst on a 50 that has 8-10 bars of patrol exp to gain a vet level, a nice chunk of merits and an alpha rare thing whos name escapes me now.  Or taking my twinked bard to slaughter goblins for 6 or so hours solo singing songs of pacify, haste and crippling.  or logging on my wookie sharpshooter with a bio-engineered rancor pet dicking around Rori harvesting some good spawning leather while it lasts.

 

I LOVE task forces for that same feeling of character growth, for both experience and currency, but Red Side is built for skipping and speeding everything as well as overdesigned horse shit that borders anti-fun territory.  As a mastermind main I look at every single SF with disdain and disgust.

 

Virgil:  that outdoor mission to find the construction workers is just a pain in the ass due to being CoT debuffing to hell or teammates blowing it up by the time im done animating my summons.  On top of that the last mission was not built for masterminds in mind.  That one slow moving flaming testicle preferring to stay in the burning hot pet-fear causing lava is enough to why even do this WST when heroside has more plain jane ones.

Mantis: that last mission on the boat with fire patch and toxic patch spitting turrets that cause pets to run in all directions including the Z-axis to just fucking die

Kal: i dont know why we still have unlockable task forces in the future but we do

Renault: the last missions water spouts just throw minions everywhere.  and when their AI takes over to climb back up they will run into another spout.  basically taking the pets out of the fight

And again with the final room crap:  ice mistrals rube goldburg room of resummoning

 

And lastly, i fucking love mayhem missions so much.  safeguards suck.

And im not going to get into the unfun villain groups from the -resist stacking goldbrickers and wailers to the superfast super accurate slags only because i got bored typing

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

Whats it called when freshly hatched ducklings attach to a human due to first introduction?  I wish Imprintation was a word.  Because thats it.

It's literally called imprinting.

[SeraphimKensai]

I've suggested it before, but if the Golden Giza casino machines/games worked I'd argue you'd get a decent of people there, whether gambling or role playing a weekend in Vegas.

 

Otherwise some better weather cycles could be interesting, especially expanding the idea of seasonal variants of zones that Atlas has.

 

Better lighting could be useful too. Like why do I feel I need a flashlight to see where I'm going in an Arachnos base? In a CoT cave I fully get should be dark, but a giant tower with ample electricity should be able to put a few 60w light bulbs in.

[BurtHutt]

During Live, I always preferred Red side over Blue. The design is better and so it should be as it came out later. 

 

How do you improve or get more traction for Red side? Adding something you can only do Red side. Aeon was a good idea but the SF is not fun and is a bit of a hot mess when you play it. So, I stopped playing it. 

 

Better SF construction might help.

 

How about adding something like missions designed like DFB and DiB? Those are popular and not a ton of work. Make them exclusive to Red side and in a level range that needs more content. Maybe level 50 and or level 50 incarnate.

 

I can't answer for all and will mull it over for more ideas. These are just some initial thoughts.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/20/2024 at 8:13 AM, PancakeGnome said:

I think it's time to do away with the red / blue. Just allow all characters to go to all zones.

 

Characters "can" go to all zone simply by being a vigilante or a rogue.

 

The whole point of City of Heroes is to play a superhero.

It isn't about playing a supervillain.

I don't want to see heroes merged into villainy simply because villains don't have enough players to game with.

The gates were opened for villains to come to the heroside if they want more players to play with. Influence/infamy/information were merged because of the horrible market situation in the infamy-only and information-only markets - because players didn't want to/enjoy playing villains or Praetorians.

 

And sure enough, villains moved  characters over to the heroside when Going Rogue allowed them the opportunity to do so.

 

They had to add hooks to get people to buy City of Villains.

I wouldn't have bought or played City of Villains if didn't get more slots to make more superheroes and gain access to supergroup base.

Sure, I played City of Villains because I paid for it, but I don't enjoy the content other than a mayhem mission every once in a while.

 

It isn't the "red" side. It is the villain side.

It isn't the "blue" side it is the hero side.

 

The villains want it to be called red and blue in order to confuse the fact that it is heroes and villains.

Yeah, yeah, fall back on the background for heroes is blue and the background for villains is red, but that is just an excuse to "muddy the waters". 

 

The mythology of comics had always been about the stark differentiation of good versus evil through the end of the Comics Code Authority era.

When it was removed and deconstructionist writers moved into the comic book they started tearing apart the mythology and destroying the strict good versus evil divide.

It pulled comic books down from mythology into dystopian reality. (Praetoria is a dystopian reality.)

 

I'm not sure where I can draw the line here, but I don't think we should be forcing anyone or intentionally luring anyone to the "dark side"/villain side.

 

I don't think the villain side content is any better than the hero side. I played it to level 50. I didn't enjoy it. I felt that I had to play it because I bought it for the perks for the hero side.

I don't like the Twinshot or Matthew Habashy arcs (these were added for "funneling" players into arcs that more people might take). I didn't like the removal of Galaxy City (also, apparently, for "funneling" purposes). I think they are both bad compared to the Origin contacts. Best to outlevel them or go with an Origin arc.

 

Many of the players that seem to be always cheering how great the "red" side is seem have bought City of Villains or want to play villains.

The majority of players are here to play superheroes.

 

Players are back because Homecoming made a deal with NCSoft to be able run City of Heroes.

"We’d like to thank you all for your patience over the past few years, and we’re incredibly thrilled to announce that it’s paid off: NCSOFT® has officially granted Homecoming a license to host City of Heroes™." - NCSOFT & Homecoming License Announcement

 

"Redside... Best side? Right??" obviously not.

I'll give the villain-content this, it has more players that Praetoria (they don't even get listed on the https://forums.homecomingservers.com/status/ listings until they turn hero or villain)

 

How is it said?

"Let players play the game the way that they want to play it and respect their choice", is that correct?

 

 

Edited February 1 by UltraAlt

[PancakeGnome]

2 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Characters "can" go to all zone simply by being a vigilante or a rogue.

 

The whole point of City of Heroes is to play a superhero.

It isn't about playing a supervillain.

 

Lex Luther doesn't live in a different part of the city where Superman can't get to.... and if Superman goes over to Lex's building, he didn't do it by becoming a "rogue". 

This idea that if you walk into the wrong part of town you are "actually a villain of some sort" isn't how it should work. Sure those more shady parts of the city should have different sorts of jobs / task forces / missions..... but just going there because you have a reason to shouldn't be gated behind needing to compromise your hero character.

The ONLY REASON it works this way is because of economics. City of Villains was released as an expansion (and one not everyone had access to, you have to buy it). So they had to treat it like its own separate game. 

But now on homecoming we can just have a single super powered game. Where YOU get to decide what kind of character you are and where you go. And again, there is no reason going into the bad part of town should require your hero to "fall from grace".

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

Lex Luther doesn't live in a different part of the city where Superman can't get to.... and if Superman goes over to Lex's building, he didn't do it by becoming a "rogue". 

This idea that if you walk into the wrong part of town you are "actually a villain of some sort" isn't how it should work. Sure those more shady parts of the city should have different sorts of jobs / task forces / missions..... but just going there because you have a reason to shouldn't be gated behind needing to compromise your hero character.

The ONLY REASON it works this way is because of economics. City of Villains was released as an expansion (and one not everyone had access to, you have to buy it). So they had to treat it like its own separate game. 

But now on homecoming we can just have a single super powered game. Where YOU get to decide what kind of character you are and where you go. And again, there is no reason going into the bad part of town should require your hero to "fall from grace".

Not really, no. City of Villains exists for several reasons. One of the reasons that got mentioned when it was launched was because of PvP. Heroes and villains fight each other (and always have in the game since CoV was launched). And the devs didn't want the fledgling villain community to start the game and then quit because they were getting clobbered by the vast multitude of already established player heroes smacking them for trying to commit crimes in their city. While I don't believe that was a major reason, it was a dev stated reason for the separated zones. Another reason was to give villains a place that felt more villainous than the bright and cheery Paragon City, with access to new factions and new areas to explore that heroes did not have. Remember, when City of Villains launched, there were no rogues or vigilantes. You were a hero or a villain. (Also remember that PvP did not function differently than PvE like it does now. PvP functioned exactly like PvE for how powers worked, so if the zones had been combined, we were looking at PvP in all of the zones with no Siren's Call, Bloody Bay, or Warburg coming into existence.)

 

Making the Rogue Isles meant:

Villain characters could run around their zones and accomplish their tasks without hero characters hunting them down before the villain character can get developed.

New factions could be introduced to the game without needing to displace existing factions.

New zones could be available for players to explore.

New ATs could be introduced without stepping on the existing ATs. (At the time. Proliferation ended that.)

New content could be added without having to de-conflict with existing lore for more evil characters to do.

A hidden faction (Arachnos) could be further explored. (Ernesto Hess blue side used to give out an Arachnos pin to the heroes that did his TF as thanks for helping Arachnos before CoV.)

 

[PancakeGnome]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Not really, no. City of Villains exists for several reasons. One of the reasons that got mentioned when it was launched was because of PvP. Heroes and villains fight each other (and always have in the game since CoV was launched). 

 

Eh, that is EXTREMELY unlikely. Open PVP in an MMO at the time CoH (and CoV) was already a thing devs knew about ..... Everquest had different races, light and dark, and just didn't let people open PVP except on a special PVP server. A dev might have said that, but it was likely just covering for the "need for an expansion as a 2nd game that you can't access as a hero unless you pay for the expansion". 

 

Quote

Another reason was to give villains a place that felt more villainous than the bright and cheery Paragon City, with access to new factions and new areas to explore that heroes did not have.

This is another thing MMOs already were doing and had. You can have different zones that different factions use more often than not. Villains could have been encouraged to stick towards their areas more very easily..... but, again, saying these excuses is a good way to get players onboard with buying another expansion and explaining why it can't be one game that all players can access without opening their wallets... lol

Everything you list they could have just done, made villains start there, and just allowed cross over (or designed in a gameplay where there were guards against heroes in villain areas or something, so you COULD go there but it would be more hostile). 

And, again, all of this was already being done in MMOs. It was already figured out. The excuse is they just didn't know how to do these things and that having a paid expansion that only those who paid get access to was the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY is just silly. 

[Rudra]

36 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

Eh, that is EXTREMELY unlikely. Open PVP in an MMO at the time CoH (and CoV) was already a thing devs knew about ..... Everquest had different races, light and dark, and just didn't let people open PVP except on a special PVP server. A dev might have said that, but it was likely just covering for the "need for an expansion as a 2nd game that you can't access as a hero unless you pay for the expansion". 

Oh? So you know what the dev actually meant? So you were the dev in question?

 

36 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

Quote

Another reason was to give villains a place that felt more villainous than the bright and cheery Paragon City, with access to new factions and new areas to explore that heroes did not have.

This is another thing MMOs already were doing and had. You can have different zones that different factions use more often than not. Villains could have been encouraged to stick towards their areas more very easily..... but, again, saying these excuses is a good way to get players onboard with buying another expansion and explaining why it can't be one game that all players can access without opening their wallets... lol

So you are saying... that the devs should have made new zones, which they did. And again, you obviously must have been the dev since you obviously know what the dev meant better than the dev that was explaining the City of Villains expansion to the rest of us.

 

(Edit: So I guess the Live devs were lying to us too when they introduced the arenas to the game and told us it was going to be a taste of what City of Villains would be like too while giving them an opportunity to see if there were any issues with the PvP system?)

Edited February 1 by Rudra

[Clave Dark 5]

On 1/31/2024 at 2:58 PM, SaxyGuitar said:

Another one is bank heist giving good inf. I just rob a bank in a city FILLED with heroes that want to stop me. Lore wise this doesn't successfully happen every day. My name should get a big boost from that.

In principle I like this idea, as it's one thing unique to redside.  In practice, this means that people will farm banks like they do already for the Invader badge, then swap right back (see also: Aeon). 

 

 

I'm beginning to think the ease of swapping might be part of the problem...

[Earth Dragon]

Redside is the best side.

 

That's how I felt when it launched and that's what I still feel.

 

The only things I would have done differently are more due to hindsight or disagreeing with things the Beta testers pushed (like getting rid of Ice Brutes).

 

The worst Strike Forces are comparable to the better Task Forces.  The first ones you do are some of the best versus some of the worst.  At least for those players that are doing them organically a they are leveling and not just 30 min blitzing through them at level 50.

 

But big contributor is, I feel clearly, that even logging in it's now all City of Heroes.  That's what is in your face all the time.  That's been all the press.  That is much of the streaming content.

 

Regardless of preferences, if that is all you are seeing, that's what you'll come in and play.  Not positive it will make a huge difference, but it is hiding it's existence.

 

I also don't feel like many of the people who like Villain side care that they are on the lesser populated side.  So for many of those folks, you wouldn't actually be improving anything by letting heroes freely travel all over the place.  It would likely just drive some of the handful that are there anyway away.  At some stage you have to consider EVERY layer of the new player experience.  Someone playing this game for the first time after universal travel could easily become confused by the shifting tones of what they are doing.  And they would be dragged around by vet players who are just recruiting teams to get whatever reward from whatever activity they were doing and not present a very cohesive experience.

 

They already tried to make Mercy more like Atlas, but talking to the few people I came back with, we all like the original Mercy better (some of us roughly remember the change from before but forgot about it since it was less impressionable).  Spamming travel powers on the new players and changing the transports into a RL coordination nightmare to ease access to all the zones has already really impacted that feel of your character battling for position and progressing through the zones in a dangerous manner.  I'm sure the blueside players will disagree, but guess what: they are blueside players and aren't making the switch.

Edited February 2 by Earth Dragon

[Rudra]

I have to disagree that (new) players go blue side because they are not aware of red side. It may say "City of Heroes Freedom" and "City of Heroes Going Rogue" on the initial page where you select your origin, but also says quite clearly on that same page that players can be a hero or a villain. Then when they go to finish character creation if they choose to skip the tutorial, it flat out asks them if they are playing a hero or a villain. And if they choose to go into any of the tutorials, it quite plainly says which tutorial is for heroes, which is for villains, and which is neither (but lets them choose what they want to be in it). So there is ample notice that (new) players can play as villains. And experienced players (either returning to the game or already playing it) already know they can make a villain.

 

So it isn't a lack of awareness that I can tell. I do have to agree with the statements previously made by others that it most likely is because players come to play as superheroes and have a dislike for supervillains. After all, not many people want to play as a character that per (child friendly) comics and cartoons exist solely to be beat up by the heroes and lose over and over again. (Edit: Or kick puppies for fun. Or beat up little, old grannies before tossing them on the street in front of oncoming traffic. Or blow up buildings that their friends may have been inside. So on and so forth. It isn't like a fantasy game where players are typically willing to play either side. In fantasy, these days those evil orcs are often portrayed as honorable but misunderstood beings fighting for a purpose, sometimes imposed upon them. Or other reasons. Heck, 2nd edition D&D created a means of players playing drow by having a kind/benevolent offshoot that explain to non-drow players that the drow remember when they lived on the surface and were good, and they want to go back to that, but Lolth prevents it. An 'evil' side in fantasy has already been explored in surprising detail for good and evil in fantasy not being black and white like it used to be, even casting "evil races" as being forced to be evil but with a desire to be good. [Edit again: Even current versions of D&D, Pathfinder, and other fantasy games often portray evil races as not evil per se, but evil in general as enemies with good ones being around to help the players or be player characters themselves. So they are less evil and more different and typically hostile when encountered.] Superheroes and supervillains however? Especially when you know the content red side is all about conquest, greed, destruction, or other traits many people don't want associated with them? Supervillains are "evil" and there is a mental block in getting people to accept that may not necessarily be so, especially when the content reinforces it. Note however, I am not asking for red side to change.)

 

Edit yet again: TLDR: My best guess is players prefer blue side because they don't like being evil. It works for fantasy but not so much for supers. You can have a good aligned mind flayer, but you can't have a good aligned villain. Doesn't matter if you play your good aligned mind flayer paladin or your superhero as a genocidal murderer, as long as on 'paper' they are good people.

 

Edited February 2 by Rudra
Edited to add missing quotation mark.

[tidge]

I like the red side content a LOT more than blue side:

• Contacts keep you in the same zone, generally
• Unlockable contacts are somewhat natural
• Writing is better
• The zones are more creative

(I'm not going to revisit claims involving players feeling like they lack agency, done that elsewhere)

 

But I play more blue side, because PUG.

 

The things about Red Side that irk me:

• In-zone travel is more difficult

This is a direct outcome of the clever zones, but it is annoying to (effectively) require a flight power for several of the zones (Mercy, Grandville).

• Several arcs (or ideas) just sort of dead-end or are side-stepped or are otherwise difficult to understand what is going on in the lore.

For example... All these years later and I have no idea what is going on in Nerva, and I feel like Sharkhead has more secrets.

• I miss not having a nonAbyss Hazard Zone.

I recognize that Blue HZ are generally seen as failures, yet I feel like and under-the-mountain zone had potential.

[UltraAlt]

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

Lex Luther doesn't live in a different part of the city where Superman can't get to.... and if Superman goes over to Lex's building, he didn't do it by becoming a "rogue". 

 

City of Heroes isn't DCUO online.

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

This idea that if you walk into the wrong part of town you are "actually a villain of some sort" isn't how it should work.

 

It is exactly how it works in City of Heroes.

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

The ONLY REASON it works this way is because of economics

 

The main reason was PVP and to increase demographic reach by allowing people to play evil characters. (see: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Good_Versus_Evil_Edition)

Originally, the main interaction between heroes and villains would be in PVP zones where they could fight one another.

 

4

"Colosseum"

Introduced player versus player (PvP) content in the form of an arena, and also added costume options such as finer tuning of body and face scale.

May 4, 2005

 

6

"Along Came a Spider"

Updated the game client's graphics engine, and added support for dual-core CPUs and 3D sound; it also introduced three shared PvP zones, and the ability for Super Groups to build bases.

October 27, 2005

 

City of Villains

6: Along Came a Spider

October 2005

Villain player archetypes, villain character tutorial and villain player zones (Level 1–50), player vs. player zones, player-created superbase system.

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

City of Villains was released as an expansion (and one not everyone had access to, you have to buy it). So they had to treat it like its own separate game. 

 

Yes, it was a seperate game to draw in the people that wanted to play villains rather than heroes.

You didn't even have to buy City of Heroes to get a base if you only wanted to be a villain, but you HAD to get City of Villains to have a base in City of Heroes.

 

"...Bases were introduced with the release of City of Villains, and were initially restricted to those who had purchased the expansion. Individuals who did not own CoV received a message stating that a City of Villains purchase was required to enter when they tried to enter a base..." - https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Supergroup_Base

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

But now on homecoming we can just have a single super powered game.

 

Nope. At all.

And that is why you are in this thread labeled "Redside... Best side? Right??", where Villains get together to try to contrive some way to increase the number of players playing Evil characters rather than Heroes. Not Rogues that can go to either zone. Certainly not vigilantes, but far to the opposite side of the alignment scale from the side of Good. Not my terms, but the DEVs terms. (see: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Good_Versus_Evil_Edition)

 

 

I was against the alignment system and the influence/infamy/information merger. I can live with that.

Completely taking down the walls when there is a method of "changing" sides is not what City of Heroes is about.

 

Be as much of a villain as you want, but City of Heroes should be City of heroes and not City of Murky-grey Ethics.

I play City of Heroes to be in that Good versus Evil context and not the "real world". (see: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Good_Versus_Evil_Edition)

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

Where YOU get to decide what kind of character you are and where you go.

 

Rogues and Vigilantes that can do that as I stated - and not change the game that the majority of players are here to play.

You get to decide if you want to change alignements to go to the Hero side.

 

19 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

And again, there is no reason going into the bad part of town should require your hero to "fall from grace".

 

Yes, there is.

That's historically how comics work.

 

I don't expect you to understand it.

But I would think you would realize that if someone feels like they have to post a thread names "Redside... Best side? Right??" to try to get more players to play villains, that a majority of the players aren't playing City of Heroes to play villains.

 

Generally, there aren't more than 25% of any server that are playing villains at any given time and most of the time it is less than that.

Over 3 times as many players are playing heroes and not villains for a reason, and it isn't because they don't know that there is a villain side because the game tells that they can be a villain every time they make a character.

 

That isn't because the "red" side is "better" or "best".

It's because players have chosen to play heroes rather than villains. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SaxyGuitar]

16 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

In principle I like this idea, as it's one thing unique to redside.  In practice, this means that people will farm banks like they do already for the Invader badge, then swap right back (see also: Aeon). 

 

I'm not sure about this one. If bank heist gave good inf for there level people would start forming paper missions more often, or just run the bank contact over and over. People might be will to stay red if they got popular.

 

And we agree Aeon is good at pulling people over. So a couple more things with a RNG table/reward like Aeon would be nice. It'd just have to be balanced for the level it's at.

[Earth Dragon]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

I have to disagree that (new) players go blue side because they are not aware of red side. It may say "City of Heroes Freedom" and "City of Heroes Going Rogue" on the initial page where you select your origin, but also says quite clearly on that same page that players can be a hero or a villain. Then when they go to finish character creation if they choose to skip the tutorial, it flat out asks them if they are playing a hero or a villain. And if they choose to go into any of the tutorials, it quite plainly says which tutorial is for heroes, which is for villains, and which is neither (but lets them choose what they want to be in it). So there is ample notice that (new) players can play as villains. And experienced players (either returning to the game or already playing it) already know they can make a villain.

 

So it isn't a lack of awareness that I can tell. I do have to agree with the statements previously made by others that it most likely is because players come to play as superheroes and have a dislike for supervillains. After all, not many people want to play as a character that per (child friendly) comics and cartoons exist solely to be beat up by the heroes and lose over and over again. (Edit: Or kick puppies for fun. Or beat up little, old grannies before tossing them on the street in front of oncoming traffic. Or blow up buildings that their friends may have been inside. So on and so forth. It isn't like a fantasy game where players are typically willing to play either side. In fantasy, these days those evil orcs are often portrayed as honorable but misunderstood beings fighting for a purpose, sometimes imposed upon them. Or other reasons. Heck, 2nd edition D&D created a means of players playing drow by having a kind/benevolent offshoot that explain to non-drow players that the drow remember when they lived on the surface and were good, and they want to go back to that, but Lolth prevents it. An 'evil' side in fantasy has already been explored in surprising detail for good and evil in fantasy not being black and white like it used to be, even casting "evil races" as being forced to be evil but with a desire to be good. [Edit again: Even current versions of D&D, Pathfinder, and other fantasy games often portray evil races as not evil per se, but evil in general as enemies with good ones being around to help the players or be player characters themselves. So they are less evil and more different and typically hostile when encountered.] Superheroes and supervillains however? Especially when you know the content red side is all about conquest, greed, destruction, or other traits many people don't want associated with them? Supervillains are "evil" and there is a mental block in getting people to accept that may not necessarily be so, especially when the content reinforces it. Note however, I am not asking for red side to change.)

 

Edit yet again: TLDR: My best guess is players prefer blue side because they don't like being evil. It works for fantasy but not so much for supers. You can have a good aligned mind flayer, but you can't have a good aligned villain. Doesn't matter if you play your good aligned mind flayer paladin or your superhero as a genocidal murderer, as long as on 'paper' they are good people.

 

Grand Theft Auto wouldn't exist if this was completely the case.

 

Salamanders would be the only chapter of Space Marines anyone would play in 40k if it was completely the case.

 

I'll agree unconditionally that people have a derangement to their psyche that as long as something is called "good" all evidence to the contrary is thrown out the window (which we've seen evil people exploit that all throughout time, flocking to whatever is considered good to go undetected).  That's what's caused fights during TTRPGs for decades when players or GMs protest that the chaotic "good" character shouldn't be doing "rapey" things.

 

 

So the fact that Villain side does not feel "evil" or perhaps even "chaotic" or "selfish" enough (as villains aren't universally evil anyway, nor do they choose to be painted as villains even) to many people says there is something lacking from the experience for them in the opposite direction.  Allow heroes to run around the zones without Villains being able to attack them?  You go FURTHER in that direction.

 

Keep in mind, there is nothing stopping you from creating a hero instance of all the villain zones and a villain instance of all the hero zones if you want to explore making more content for both sides.  Just that mixing has a much different impact on both side's potential immersion.  If they had their own instance, the contacts and/or missions offered by those contacts could change anyway if you went that route.

 

And if you only advertise everything as "City of Heroes" it's not that people won't load up that game and see that you can play as a villain.  It's that whatever player out there is looking for the change pace and to play a game that allows them to be the villain when most games have you as a hero, they'll never look into playing the game.  Likely not a huge factor, but a small amount is still more then 0, no matter how small.

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

Salamanders would be the only chapter of Space Marines anyone would play in 40k if it was completely the case.

Warhammer 40K is a science fantasy game. (Not even really sci-fi. It's Warhammer Fantasy with spaceships.) So it doesn't fall under the Superhero/Supervillain bit.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

Grand Theft Auto wouldn't exist if this was completely the case.

Are there superheroes or supervillains in GTA? If there is, then it falls under what I was saying and I sit corrected. If there aren't? Then it doesn't.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

So the fact that Villain side does not feel "evil" or perhaps even "chaotic" or "selfish" enough

That's actually not what I am saying? I am saying that most people that come to play a superhero game do so to play as superheroes, because they prefer to be called good rather than evil.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

as villains aren't universally evil anyway, nor do they choose to be painted as villains even

That gets into the philosophy that most people I know don't want to bother with. It's a game with superheroes and supervillains? Then obviously the supervillains are evil and cruel and ruthless and generally need a good stomping on. That is the view I hear from most people just discussing superheroes and supervillains in general, not just in this game.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

Allow heroes to run around the zones without Villains being able to attack them?  You go FURTHER in that direction.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. However, as I have stated on multiple other threads, keep the PvP out of the PvE zones.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

Keep in mind, there is nothing stopping you from creating a hero instance of all the villain zones and a villain instance of all the hero zones if you want to explore making more content for both sides.  Just that mixing has a much different impact on both side's potential immersion.  If they had their own instance, the contacts and/or missions offered by those contacts could change anyway if you went that route.

There are lots of instances in which heroes go to the Rogue Isles and villains go to Paragon City. They are specific missions on set maps, typically after someone on the other side smuggles you in and gets you to where you need to be so the community of that zone doesn't butcher you.

 

16 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

And if you only advertise everything as "City of Heroes" it's not that people won't load up that game and see that you can play as a villain.  It's that whatever player out there is looking for the change pace and to play a game that allows them to be the villain when most games have you as a hero, they'll never look into playing the game.  Likely not a huge factor, but a small amount is still more then 0, no matter how small.

I actually agree with this statement. I don't see any out of game advertising for the game, but if all people see is the game name, they may not think they can play villains too. Once they get into the character creator though, there are two ways for them to find out they can play as a villain; at the start and at the end of making their character. (Edit: Hence my comment being that even new players to the game are not likely lacking in awareness of there being a playable villain side as it is in their faces twice while making characters.)

Edited February 2 by Rudra

[Earth Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Warhammer 40K is a science fantasy game. (Not even really sci-fi. It's Warhammer Fantasy with spaceships.) So it doesn't fall under the Superhero/Supervillain bit.

 

Are there superheroes or supervillains in GTA? If there is, then it falls under what I was saying and I sit corrected. If there aren't? Then it doesn't.

 

That's actually not what I am saying? I am saying that most people that come to play a superhero game do so to play as superheroes, because they prefer to be called good rather than evil.

 

That gets into the philosophy that most people I know don't want to bother with. It's a game with superheroes and supervillains? Then obviously the supervillains are evil and cruel and ruthless and generally need a good stomping on. That is the view I hear from most people just discussing superheroes and supervillains in general, not just in this game.

 

I'm not sure where you are going with this. However, as I have stated on multiple other threads, keep the PvP out of the PvE zones.

 

There are lots of instances in which heroes go to the Rogue Isles and villains go to Paragon City. They are specific missions on set maps, typically after someone on the other side smuggles you in and gets you to where you need to be so the community of that zone doesn't butcher you.

 

I actually agree with this statement. I don't see any out of game advertising for the game, but if all people see is the game name, they may not think they can play villains too. Once they get into the character creator though, there are two ways for them to find out they can play as a villain; at the start and at the end of making their character.

Rudra, cherry picking and then saying "I don't know why you said that" doesn't do any good because you DO know why I said that because the context is there.

 

It's clear you just like to argue as your comment more muddies the nuance then adds to it so you can disagree

[twozerofoxtrot]

19 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

And if you only advertise everything as "City of Heroes" it's not that people won't load up that game and see that you can play as a villain.  It's that whatever player out there is looking for the change pace and to play a game that allows them to be the villain when most games have you as a hero, they'll never look into playing the game.  Likely not a huge factor, but a small amount is still more then 0, no matter how small.

100% my case.

I never cared about the game City of Heroes. I saw it was being advertised and talked about, but the whole premise bored me and I was too exited about another MMO coming out related to one of my favorite strategy game IPs.

 

But I bought City of Villains as soon as I saw a copy at the store.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

Rudra, cherry picking and then saying "I don't know why you said that" doesn't do any good because you DO know why I said that because the context is there.

 

It's clear you just like to argue as your comment more muddies the nuance then adds to it so you can disagree

No, I don't. Here, let me give the full quote of that statement:

 

27 minutes ago, Earth Dragon said:

So the fact that Villain side does not feel "evil" or perhaps even "chaotic" or "selfish" enough (as villains aren't universally evil anyway, nor do they choose to be painted as villains even) to many people says there is something lacking from the experience for them in the opposite direction.  Allow heroes to run around the zones without Villains being able to attack them?  You go FURTHER in that direction.

I don't know anyone that feels red side is not evil enough, chaotic enough, or selfish enough. I do know several people that aren't happy that you are typically a lackey/go-fer though. And yes, I know many villains are not evil incarnate, but are painted as such because of the extremes they take to accomplish their goals or because their methods clash with what the public is willing to tolerate or because they are simply demonized or any of several other reasons. However, the typical/basic view of anyone that doesn't delve into the philosophies, moralities, and other background information tends to be villain=evil regardless of what may be going on. And there aren't many people that I know of that are willing to jump into playing even a table top game with supers where they are playing the baddies. There are players like that, but most prefer to be the good guys. As for the rest of that quote? No, I have no idea where you are going with it. So precautionary statement: I oppose having PvP added to any PvE zone in any capacity (outside of the arena terminals).

 

Edited February 2 by Rudra
Edited to correct "don't" to "do".

[Earth Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

No, I don't. Here, let me give the full quote of that statement:

 

I don't know anyone that feels red side is not evil enough, chaotic enough, or selfish enough. I do know several people that aren't happy that you are typically a lackey/go-fer though. And yes, I know many villains are not evil incarnate, but are painted as such because of the extremes they take to accomplish their goals or because their methods clash with what the public is willing to tolerate or because they are simply demonized or any of several other reasons. However, the typical/basic view of anyone that doesn't delve into the philosophies, moralities, and other background information tends to be villain=evil regardless of what may be going on. And there aren't many people that I know of that are willing to jump into playing even a table top game with supers where they are playing the baddies. There are players like that, but most prefer to be the good guys. As for the rest of that quote? No, I have no idea where you are going with it. So precautionary statement: I oppose having PvP added to any PvE zone in any capacity (outside of the arena terminals).

 

If you don't know anyone, just read the first page of these comments

 

Now you do

[ranagrande]

Here's what I'd like to see if you really want to get more people playing villains: a huge amount of new content.

 

Specifically, I want a set of mutually exclusive story arcs in the endgame that culminate in your villain becoming the leader of one of the major enemy groups in the game.

 

Then make that actually matter.  Have people comment on it.  Have NPCs of your chosen group no longer be hostile to you.  Have repeatable missions where your minions are begging their boss to save them.

 

It would be a massive amount of work, yes.  But it would be awesome.

[Clave Dark 5]

6 hours ago, SaxyGuitar said:

And we agree Aeon is good at pulling people over.

Pulling over yes.  Staying over, obviously not, or we'd not be having this conversation.