Redside... Best side? Right??

[Vic Raiden]

I, for one, don't mind the general run-down oppressive style of the Rogue Isles. It kinda suits the place's history as a colonial outlaw haven which eventually became the seat of power for the world's premier nebulous evil organization... that said, Cap au Diable and St. Martial could both use some redesigning because they simply don't feel that much like what they're supposed to be.

 

I do also mind just how few zones there are, with few contacts to do missions for. Could make for a pretty repetitive experience if you roll multiple villains.

 

Furthermore, like a lot of people in this thread, I too am frustrated by how the game always treats the player as a lackey for hire who doesn't have a personality beyond what the contacts need of them, as well as how little actual villainy you get to do - it's all either petty and small in scope, or fighting the more established villain factions like a hero except with edgy "evil" reasons slapped on it. There's just so few moments where I could really feel like I'm my own villain running my own evil plans...

 

Regarding what could be done to increase the appeal, I'd just second the suggestions of adding more non-cooperative SFs and - in a much longer term - setting up longer story arcs where a player could actually realize their own evil agenda, even if to a limited extent.

[Rudra]

Maybe more arcs like Vincent Ross' or Diviner Maros? In both cases, yes, you are the one doing all the work, but also in both cases, they expressly point out that they are helping you rather than the other way around. Diviner Maros even makes a point of telling you that you are beyond his means of fighting. So while you are doing the tasks they give you, which is unavoidable with how the game works, in both cases it is basically your op, just with their support.

[Britannic]

Actual lack of fighting heroes maybe? I often end up beating up *checks notes* villain groups. I feel more like the HR department for Arachnos than an actual supervillain. Time to break out (and expand the roster of) the Paragon Heroes and start sticking them in more CoV content.

[EmperorSteele]

I'm just gonna throw something out here, which hopefully won't be too controversial.

 

The contact system for redside SUCKS. You have to do paper missions to be intro'd to new contacts. If you don't, you're screwed. Some contacts you can just walk right up to, but most will be like "I don't know you, why are you talking to me", and that's assuming you can even find them on your own.

 

Just recently, I did Vincent Ross's arc for the first time in years, and it kept mentioning talking to different contacts or factions. WHAT different contacts or factions?! I was never introduced to anyone! I found Ross by accident! And it felt really shitty to see those unusable radios at the start of most of the missions, knowing I was missing out on something.

 

There's the Find Contact button, but it just keeps pointing me at Night Ward content. It barely points me at any mainline content (unless it came after issue 22 or so, it seems).

 

Also, I'm playing a Soldier of Arachnos for the first time, and the "kill a boss" mission every five levels is... REALLY underwhelming. There's barely any story there, and the contact has the personality of a coardboard box.

 

So, if anything, fix contacts being locked behind paper missions, and make them ALL appear on the contact finder, and that'll be an improvement in my book.

Edited January 22 by EmperorSteele

[Frozen Burn]

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The ability to kill civilians in Mayhem missions (the only villainous thing you can do) was only added to the game after The Snap.

 

Love your post and agree with everything.  However, FYI, the ability to kill civies in mayhems was a part of Live as I clearly remember spending a lot of time getting the Terminator badge for killing 1000 citizens back then, and then having to do grind and do again here for Homecoming.  

[Tatterhood]

19 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

One of the things that always go me was when you rob a bank/casino/etc there is no large inf bonus.

C'mon man I just robbed a bank and got 20 inf for disintegrating a guard.

Presumably this kind of thing is why the currency is "influence" or "infamy" in the first place. It's not supposed to be money. The auction house definitely muddies the waters a bit though...

[PancakeGnome]

1 hour ago, Tatterhood said:

Presumably this kind of thing is why the currency is "influence" or "infamy" in the first place. It's not supposed to be money. The auction house definitely muddies the waters a bit though...

They should just switch it to money.... so we can have the Tony Stark and Batman billionairs. 

Money really is a super power, even in CoH.... being able to afford the finest of choppahs and work tables and stuff.

[Tatterhood]

Just now, PancakeGnome said:

They should just switch it to money.... so we can have the Tony Stark and Batman billionairs.

Well I think this is also part of the point. You can make your Batman knockoff who is super rich as a backstory without the game itself contradicting you and saying you have no money to start.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, PancakeGnome said:

They should just switch it to money.... so we can have the Tony Stark and Batman billionairs. 

Money really is a super power, even in CoH.... being able to afford the finest of choppahs and work tables and stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Tatterhood said:

Well I think this is also part of the point. You can make your Batman knockoff who is super rich as a backstory without the game itself contradicting you and saying you have no money to start.

This is actually pointed out in the Hammers of Justice arc from Sgt. Schorr in St. Martial. Network tells you that he checked your finances and you are loaded. Lots of cash from all your previous missions/arcs. Yes, we actually buy things with influence/infamy/information, but money is mentioned in the game. (It is actually mentioned in multiple arcs, but only Network that I know of actually checks how much cash you have.) It is just presumed we are spending it on ourselves, our homes, our whatevers, but that it doesn't really come into play in our heroic or villainous lives except as background.

 

Edit: It also shows up in various super hero cartoons and comics. Where the hero/villain needs some item to improve or use their abilities, but cash isn't accepted. Whether because they are dealing with a multi-dimensional dealer, and interplanetary merchant, an eccentric inventor, or whatever. They have to trade some arcane item they traded for previously, some hidden secret, some rare technology, or other things to get the components they need.

Edited January 22 by Rudra

[Jiro Ito]

Heroes are largely reactive in going about their business, so going to contacts and getting work makes sense.

 

Print and screen villains, however, are proactive in their business.  They're the ones coming up with the plots, executing them, and largely getting foiled by heroes reacting to them.  This is difficult to realize in a video game though.  Most of what we're doing in CoV is helping other villains realize their plots, rather than furthering our own.  It would be difficult to do this as the game is designed, but the newer arcs like Dr Graves are a step in the right direction.  For the most part though, we're the lackeys working for the real villains. 

 

Mercy Island is also a nightmare to get around, especially compared to Atlas Park.

[Cybersbe]

16 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

I, for one, don't mind the general run-down oppressive style of the Rogue Isles. It kinda suits the place's history as a colonial outlaw haven which eventually became the seat of power for the world's premier nebulous evil organization... that said, Cap au Diable and St. Martial could both use some redesigning because they simply don't feel that much like what they're supposed to be.

 

I do also mind just how few zones there are, with few contacts to do missions for. Could make for a pretty repetitive experience if you roll multiple villains.

 

Furthermore, like a lot of people in this thread, I too am frustrated by how the game always treats the player as a lackey for hire who doesn't have a personality beyond what the contacts need of them, as well as how little actual villainy you get to do - it's all either petty and small in scope, or fighting the more established villain factions like a hero except with edgy "evil" reasons slapped on it. There's just so few moments where I could really feel like I'm my own villain running my own evil plans...

 

Regarding what could be done to increase the appeal, I'd just second the suggestions of adding more non-cooperative SFs and - in a much longer term - setting up longer story arcs where a player could actually realize their own evil agenda, even if to a limited extent.

More or less my thoughts. There simply isn’t as much villain-exclusive content as there is hero-exclusive content.

 

To name a good example, let’s take a look at the trial zone page on the wiki: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Trial_Zone

 

The ONLY Villain-Exclusive Trial Zone is Monster Island. Everything else is either hero-exclusive or co-op. (Although the page lists the Abyss as a villain zone, the page for the Abyss notes that it’s a co-op zone.)

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

I barely skimmed the other responses, so pardon me if this has already been said.

 

I am a comic book nerd.  I grew up reading them and loving them and still have dozens of boxes of comics.

 

Growing up I frequently imagined myself as a super hero - fighting crime, helping people, etc.  I never imagined myself as Dr. Doom, Luthor, Red Skull, or Venom.  I think maybe a lot of other players had similar fantasies.  So when this game came out I was in love from my first few minutes in Atlas.

 

I didn't mind playing redside too much because it wasn't much different that blueside in that I had super powers and beat up bad guys.  But it was new ATs and some new powers and a lot of new missions and places to visit.  Sometimes they were the same bad guys, sometimes they were different bad guys.  And as stated above, very few stories actually make the player feel like a villain.

 

The only things that make me play redside more is an occasional desire to do something different, switching over for a quick TF, and the rare planned theme group of players.

[Reiska]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:25 PM, Lunar Ronin said:

In one of the City of Heroes AMA on Reddit after shutdown, one of the Paragon Studios developers (I forget which), said that prior to sunset, the City of Heroes population was roughly split 80% heroes, and 20% villains.  On Homecoming, the split is roughly 90% heroes, and 10% villains.

Not to nitpick, but this isn't quite accurate; the split is still much closer to 80/20 on Homecoming.  (For instance, at the time of this post across all shards, there are 2672 heroes and 569 villains in game, a total of 3241 characters, of which 17.55% are villains.

 

As for substantive points, everything I thought of has already been said by other people.

Edited January 23 by Reiska
Added a bit more substance

[DrBasics]

I think a mediocre to decent idea would be giving the villain path that follows the "relatable" or "noble" villain. Some examples of this would be:

 

• The Vulture from Spider-Man: Homecoming.
  • Just some guy who's hand was forced by heroes to turn him into the villain.
• MCU Thanos
  • Misguided powerful guy who has a demented altruistic goal.
• Red Skull
  • Crazy evil jerk who thinks he is creating utopia once his "work" is finished.

There are many more, just some examples. Villains have a million reasons for being a villain, not just "herp-derp, get money". The game should reflect that.

[Mallador]

I've always loved Red side, but the reasons I personally think that the Hero side is more popular is because...

 

The Hero side has been out longer and it was what the game initially started out with, so because of this there's a lot more content--tons of zones, Contacts, more exploration badges, and so forth (more to do).  Additionally, since it's been out longer, people would have become more accustomed to certain parts of the Hero side to use as a hub (or hubs), which happens in any mmo rpg type of game.

 

Furthermore, who wouldn't want to be a Hero?  I think that a good chunk of people simply like being a Hero, so they've only ever been Heroes--for those who are playing now that have been playing since live.  The Villain side of the other hand wasn't released with Heroes, but it was released a few years later--implying less content, people are used to Heroes more already... the stuff I already mentioned.  The Villain side is also thematically different of course, so if people became used to the Hero side and how everything looks, they might want to stick with that, rather than the gloomier side of the Rogue Isles.  Plus, some people might not want to play on the Villain side if they don't know where any of the contacts are for the different story arcs, TFs, etc.  This, on top of being able to start as a Hero, even if your AT is that of a Villain, would create for Hero players (though you can always swap again whenever).

 

Whenever I look at what people are looking for in the LFG chat, it's always Hero side TFs, PI radio, or something else.  I can't really remember the last time someone actively called out in the LFG channel for Villain side TFs, possibly because not many people know where they're at (lol).  It could also be because people have been hooked into a routine on the Hero side, so it'd be a hassle for them to try and learn the Villain side, and since there's not many Villain players as there is, it just snowballs toward the Hero side all the more (makes life easier for a chunk of people basically).

 

 

To fix this issue I'm not entirely sure what would have to be added or changed, but... 

 

Having people simply go over to the Villain side to learn more about the different story arcs and contacts available for TFs (etc.), which a lot of people might not know about, could help interest some people.  You could lure people into the Villain side with some x2 XP or Influence, or both for a time, x2 just being an example (could do x1.2, x1.5, etc. as someone above me mentioned).

 

More maps would also be nice, so that it doesn't feel as stuffy as it does compared to the Hero side.  What I mean by this is that since the Hero side has a lot of maps, there's more possibilities that people will find a map they really like to level up on, whether it be due to how the map looks or due to the contacts there--since this isn't the case with the Villain side though, you'd either like the few maps given or you won't, which can impact people's favor factor.

 

One minor thing that impacts me personally, is that on the Hero side it feels like I'm actually registered a Hero that can work with the PPD, Longbow, etc. on the different maps--even when I'm just going out and about.  On the Villain side however, there's basically nothing like that--which I understand, as there's the different factions each having their own Arachnos troops and so forth, but you do end up working for or with Arachnos at some point as a powerhouse for them, yet all of them are hostile to you (lol).  So for me, I can never get the same feeling on the Villain side where I'm helping to fight against the Heroes or other enemies of Arachnos while going through the few different maps.

 

These are just some of my random thoughts :V  I'd love to see the Villain side became a little more popular though and expand content-wise, not just with end game stuff--though the new Villain side TFs/Arcs have been a cool addition.

Edited January 25 by Mallador

[Hedgefund]

I just found this thread and skimmed, not perused other comments.

 

My main problem is a lack of 30-35 SF.  No, Morty Kal doesn't count.  I can live without a Posi analog but this 30-35 gap won't do.

 

Ultimately I have to question if this is a problem worth solving.  So many players have it ingrained "I don't want to be the bad guy" that I don't think you can overcome that, not within the context of this game.  If 20% of play goes on red side, that sounds consistent with how it's been since I joined, right after CoV came out.  By now you have to acknowledge "it is what it is" and throw bones to those 20% occasionally (like a lvl 30-35 sf).

[CraterLabs]

I think redside is better because the game devs had a better idea of what the players of CoH wanted when they were making the Rogue Isles content.

 

As for why more players don't go there: honestly, I think the slum-like environment can be a bit of a bummer sometimes. Beyond that, as much as I absolutely love Redside, sometimes it's no fun to fight Longbow one out of every three missions (but at least they're more fun than fighting the Legacy Chain.)

 

I think if the various redside zones made it more common to come across enemy groups who were flashier or brought more variety, people might get more invested.

 

Also, let the Mooks finally win the gang war in Port Oakes, they deserve it. Viva Verandi!

[Vic Raiden]

I've taken the time to browse the wiki, and found that there's a few villain arcs which do put enough emphasis on the player to make them feel actually in charge of the operation... except a good few of those then pull the rug from under you just before anything seriously status quo-shattering can happen, with the most the player gets in the end being a consolation prize of sorts. Not much of an incentive to play, if you ask me. However, were some of the achievements to provide some, I don't know, temporary powers... Take Bane Spider Ruben's arc, for example. You end it in possession of a mind control device, and only get to use it during a single multiple-choice-but-still-scripted speech. Why not make a temporary mass-Confuse power out of it? Or anything, really, so long as one can actually feel like they're gaining something from doing all that work.

 

Another thing, a more far-fetched one, could be expanding the Rogue Isles archipelago. The official parchment map includes a couple landmasses to the south, why not make some use of them? That way, redside players could gain at least some more variety, with more places and contacts to find at a given level range.

Edited January 26 by Vic Raiden

[Paradox Fate]

Do miss me more Port Oakes stuff to do, since Cap and Sharkhead got enough going on.

 

Otherwise, being able to play various types of villains isn't so easy on CoV, since you do not always need to perform various acts of violence to be one.

But since applying violence is 95+% of the gameplay, there isn't much you can branch out with ideas and concepts of your villain(s).

 

Now, this reminds me of the Summer Blockbuster : Heist - You perform a robbery with nearly no combat other than in the safehouse, and that type of gameply feels like which CoV is missing.

[SupaFreak]

Can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it’s about the population there and the infrequency of teams.

I am an action junkie, barely ever delving into the story of it all so that’s not a factor for me.

 

I actually prefer the atmosphere over there because I am personally gritty and abrasive so it matches my personality  - plus the heavy metal type music in most areas -  but yea, I enjoy teams so it boils down to where the teams are for me.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Vic Raiden said:

I've taken the time to browse the wiki, and found that there's a few villain arcs which do put enough emphasis on the player to make them feel actually in charge of the operation... except a good few of those then pull the rug from under you just before anything seriously status quo-shattering can happen, with the most the player gets in the end being a consolation prize of sorts. Not much of an incentive to play, if you ask me. However, were some of the achievements to provide some, I don't know, temporary powers... Take Bane Spider Ruben's arc, for example. You end it in possession of a mind control device, and only get to use it during a single multiple-choice-but-still-scripted speech. Why not make a temporary mass-Confuse power out of it? Or anything, really, so long as one can actually feel like they're gaining something from doing all that work.

 

Another thing, a more far-fetched one, could be expanding the Rogue Isles archipelago. The official parchment map includes a couple landmasses to the south, why not make some use of them? That way, redside players could gain at least some more variety, with more places and contacts to find at a given level range.

In Bane Spider Ruben's case, you have the projector, but not the power source. Arachnos has the power source, but not the projector if you go that route. (They have both if you don't.) (Also, it isn't a mind control device, it is a powerful suggestion/persuasion device. The Suggestion Engine. As Ruben points out, no one affected by it exhibits any signs of mind control or other mental domination.)

 

Edit: And while yes, there is still some power left in the projector at the end of the arc, it is not a mind control/confusion effect. So while you could feasibly use it to turn someone to your side, the moment you attack them or harm them in any way, they will immediately try to kill you. And since it is a persuasion/suggestion effect, you can't realistically use it against someone you are in combat with.

Edited January 26 by Rudra

[Vic Raiden]

OK, maybe that wasn't the best example, but you get the point. I just wanted to say gaining actual, tangible in-game benefits from completing certain arcs could be neat.

[Wavicle]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:12 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Chaotic Fix         =  Create an ongoing red side event called "sovereignty" red siders can do quest chains to take over blue side hazard zones (not pvp) Red side gains incremental buffs  the more zones they own. Hazard zones reset weekly. Blue side can defend the zone with their own quests but all they gain is the power of friendship (lol)

 

Do it.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:48 PM, Dev Unitas said:

Hello everyone! I wanted to field some community discussion on a topic that is near and dear to many of our hearts- the wonderful, picturesque Rogue Isles!

 

As we all know, player interest is lower overall in City of Villains content, with populations being consistently lower than heroes by a significant margin. I'd simply like to ask why people personally think this is, beyond the clear recursive chicken-and-egg situation (ie. less players leads to less players). It's intriguing, because I've seen a decently common sentiment that Redside has higher quality content overall. I've also seen the atmosphere of the zones as a reason why people don't play there.

 

As a follow-up question, what would you think is a good solution to increasing general interest in the Rogue Isles?

 

Also, Praetoria is not a part of this specific conversation- it's a whole kettle of fish on its own, and perhaps worthy of independent discussion in a future thread.

 

Quick Disclaimer: This is a question purely being asked by me, not the development team. I'm simply curious what people think, and this is absolutely not indicative of anything in future being planned. Please take on the post at face value and refrain from speculation within the thread.

 

Make all of CoV co-op zone.

 

 

Edited January 26 by UltraAlt

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Make all of CoV co-op zone.

 

 

How would that help? And wouldn't that kill red side's identity?