Bring Underperforming Sets Up to Par

[BlueDragoon]

I'm saying this almost entirely from a PvP point of view. There are MANY underwhelming powersets in the game, some of them have absolutely no place in PvP which severely hurts the variety of potential builds and the enjoyment of buildcrafting in general. I'm talking about things like how for Blaster, only Ice (especially Ice), Psi and Dark Blast are considered strong primaries, and then even worse, Tactical Arrow and Plant are seen as the only truly strong secondaries.

 

This is even worse on other classes, although I haven't prepared a comprehensive list.

 

There's MANY balance problems that bother me. Too many power picks feel forced if you don't want to cripple your build, and others which should feel useful aren't. Take Aid Self - on paper a great skill for a Blaster with no heal. But there's two problems with it which make it truly awful. First, it consumes endurance before even attempting a cast (AS doesn't do that, you can spam it until the cast begins), if you hit the button a lot (which you often need to do due to the sensitivity of being interrupted), you'll end up totally drained. Another problem is that a mere DoT tick is enough to interrupt the cast. In the end what we are left with is a truly horrible and almost worthless heal. By the time you pop this heal off, IF you even manage it, you'll be dust unless you're having a 1v1 with a low damage AT.

 

Other things bother me, such as the lack of some classes ability to deal with high incoming burst damage. My Spider for example, is a melee toon just like a Stalker - with less damage output. And NO heal, NO godmode access. It's extremely tight to try build this AT, and Widows are even more pathetic.

 

Or look at the prevalence of Phase Shift and Hibernate. There's no dodge in this game, so unless you have a t9 godmode how can you survive focused burst? You NEED to take phase at the very least. But this only further limits builds.

 

Personally, I would like if it every AT was inherently given "Dodge" as a power, an instant cast skill that gives you a second of immunity to damage. You get two charges and each takes 15 seconds to recharge. This would keep Phase Shift a strong option without making it feel so mandatory.

 

I also think in general many sets need looked at, some need damage increases but some could use stronger secondary effects. For example why take Electrical Blast? Just to take off tiny smidgens of endurance from one player? The -end should be through the roof with mediocre damage to give it a viable niche.

 

Just some general ideas on how I'd finetune things.

[pattycake]

This post needs more attention, I am having a hard time gripping half what you are suggesting, could you explain more about PvP aspects regarding the current balances, what you think if was intended or downright broken. More interested in Primaries and Secondaries, but beggars can’t be choosers.

[SwitchFade]

I'm saying this almost entirely from a PvP point of view. There are MANY underwhelming powersets in the game, some of them have absolutely no place in PvP which severely hurts the variety of potential builds and the enjoyment of buildcrafting in general. I'm talking about things like how for Blaster, only Ice (especially Ice), Psi and Dark Blast are considered strong primaries, and then even worse, Tactical Arrow and Plant are seen as the only truly strong secondaries.

 

This is even worse on other classes, although I haven't prepared a comprehensive list.

 

There's MANY balance problems that bother me. Too many power picks feel forced if you don't want to cripple your build, and others which should feel useful aren't. Take Aid Self - on paper a great skill for a Blaster with no heal. But there's two problems with it which make it truly awful. First, it consumes endurance before even attempting a cast (AS doesn't do that, you can spam it until the cast begins), if you hit the button a lot (which you often need to do due to the sensitivity of being interrupted), you'll end up totally drained. Another problem is that a mere DoT tick is enough to interrupt the cast. In the end what we are left with is a truly horrible and almost worthless heal. By the time you pop this heal off, IF you even manage it, you'll be dust unless you're having a 1v1 with a low damage AT.

 

Other things bother me, such as the lack of some classes ability to deal with high incoming burst damage. My Spider for example, is a melee toon just like a Stalker - with less damage output. And NO heal, NO godmode access. It's extremely tight to try build this AT, and Widows are even more pathetic.

 

Or look at the prevalence of Phase Shift and Hibernate. There's no dodge in this game, so unless you have a t9 godmode how can you survive focused burst? You NEED to take phase at the very least. But this only further limits builds.

 

Personally, I would like if it every AT was inherently given "Dodge" as a power, an instant cast skill that gives you a second of immunity to damage. You get two charges and each takes 15 seconds to recharge. This would keep Phase Shift a strong option without making it feel so mandatory.

 

I also think in general many sets need looked at, some need damage increases but some could use stronger secondary effects. For example why take Electrical Blast? Just to take off tiny smidgens of endurance from one player? The -end should be through the roof with mediocre damage to give it a viable niche.

 

Just some general ideas on how I'd finetune things.

 

Ah, you lost me at PvP. Honestly, PvP is one of the main reasons the original devs ruined things, in that name of balance. Anybpvp change should be done completely separate from over, and the two should never intertwine.

[HelenCarnate]

The exact same complaints are what got us I13.

[Rockfall]

PvP balance has no place in a PvE game. Too many games have been ruined trying to find that balance. Let it go.

[Xaeon]

The technology exists to give powers and enhancements different stats in PvP and PvE. There is absolutely no need for how powers and enhancements function in one to affect the other.

[Solvernia]

Reminder that PVP and PVE in City of Heroes have fundamentally different mechanics (see: instant heals converted to regen, mez prot converted to mez resist, etc). Changes made to PVP stats in CoH can be made to not affect PVE, and vice versa.

 

Also reminder that people do PVP in this game, and these are valid concerns. Especially about spiders -- I've PVPed as a spider and they really are just lackluster stalkers.

[Kaika]

As someone who used to pvp but stopped when I13 rolled around, yes these are they type of suggestions that got us into that mess, but they are extremely valid suggestions. The devs just went the worst possible route into addressing the issue as they did not seem to understand what made the pvp in the game fun.

 

Back on topic I support this suggestion as pvp has been in need of some re-balancing as many sets, and even whole ATs just are, never have been viable. Which is a pretty big turn off for those looking to get into pvp when they find out their main will just get steamrolled no matter what they do for making the wrong choice at character creation. I only ever got into PVP because I was running Ice/Dev back in the day and that happened to be decent in pvp zones. If I was running AR or something else that wasn't really good at the time, I probably would have never touched it or even have been against its inclusion like a lot of people were.

 

PS: PvP, like other have said, runs on a completely different system then PvE, power can have different property's there while not effecting anything in PvE, its been like that since I13. So changes in PvP wont effect anything else.

[Rockfall]

To fix the AT problems you'd have to have powers do radically different things in PvE vs PvP. That doesn't strike me as a winning combination. Powers behaving different in PvE vs PvP is damage to the game design, IMO.

 

Also, there's the whole "toxic pvp community" problem.

[PaxArcana]

PvP balance has no place in a PvE game. Too many games have been ruined trying to find that balance. Let it go.

 

+100 INF.

[Galaxy Brain]

PvP balance has no place in a PvE game. Too many games have been ruined trying to find that balance. Let it go.

 

+100 INF.

 

It has no place unless PVP stats / environment is different than PVE. This is already the case in CoX.

[BlueDragoon]

PvP balance has no place in a PvE game. Too many games have been ruined trying to find that balance. Let it go.

 

+100 INF.

 

It has no place unless PVP stats / environment is different than PVE. This is already the case in CoX.

 

Sad how intolerant people are isn't it? We already have the capability to make this have no effect on PvE. There's also the fact that bringing weaker powersets up to scratch would be a benefit in PvE too, in some cases.

 

PvE doesn't rely on finetuned balance because it's not really very difficult or demanding compared to PvP fights. The game doesn't really have many ways of making mechanics interesting other than just "debuff then hit this guy really hard".

 

Not saying PvE isn't important, I just think it's a bit funny to say PvP changes would ruin PvE changes (and this is in a hypothetical world without PvP skill splits) when the game mode is so utterly brain dead.

[ranevan]

I don't get why people are mad about suggestions to improve an aspect of the game.  If the change only affects PVP, then why complain about it?  Why yuck someone else's yum?

[Galaxy Brain]

No need to call out PvE play. The issue is that many people have been burned by games that do huge changes to PvE for the sake of PvP, especially if it was not in there from the start.

 

It is almost alien to think about that in modern games since they have PvP as an intended system and it's already different than the standard gameplay.

[marcussmythe]

You are fighting the perception (true or false) among a segment of the player base that CoH suffered some painful balance changes (set wrecking, retire the character balance changes) due to the implementation of PvP.

 

These changes may not actually have been DUE to PvP (the developers of the era said they were not.  Ask a former Regen player about the candor, competence, and character of the developers of the era), but the impression, as a larger number of those balance changes rolled out around the time or soon after PvP hit, is and will remain that PvP balance was the cause.

[_NOPE_]

Bring Underperforming Sets Up to Par

 

I'm saying this almost entirely from a PvP point of view.

 

[SwitchFade]

Unfortunately, the OP has not delineated that any changes suggested should be exclusive to PvP.

 

Unfortunately, in the past, PvP changes very negatively affected pve.

 

Fortunately, PvP and pve are separate and under no circumstances should any balance changes consider them together.

 

If "balance changes" to PvP require that things are so far changed that PvP and pve are in effect completely different, good. PvP can be a completely different game and must never affect pve.

 

Lastly, where priorities are concerned, PvP changes rank at the absolute dead last, bottom tier priority spot, to me. Any Dev time should be spent on any other improvements before PvP.

 

I vote, all PvP changes to be placed at bottom slot for priority permanently.

[srmalloy]

Ah, you lost me at PvP. Honestly, PvP is one of the main reasons the original devs ruined things, in that name of balance. Anybpvp change should be done completely separate from over, and the two should never intertwine.

 

One of the things that attracted me to CoH back in 2004 was that it didn't have PvP. Then the devs introduced the Arena, and later CoV. And from there came Movement Suppression, and all the other changes. I watched the devs go from "We won't make PvE changes for PvP reasons" to "We won't make PvE changes exclusively for PvP reasons" to "We'll try not to make PvE changes for PvP reasons" to a deep silence on whether any given PvE change was driven by some PvP problem.

[Kaika]

The sheer hostility in this thread twords the simple idea of "make pvp more balanced" or even "do something with pvp" is baffling. I see so much "PvP is bad and I don't want it ruining the game" in this thread which is completely missing the issue. Its been stated many times in this thread, but I understand people have been away for a while and probably did their best to not see any thing done to pvp in the last 11 or so years but let me reiterate just so we are clear

 

PVP CHANGES HAVE NO EFFECT ON PVE ANYMORE IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE ISSUE 13

 

Open the info on a power and there is a little button there that says "Show pvp effects" or something along those line. These are already rather different in most case in terms of damage and are adjusted without changing anything with the PvE effect. If changes are made assuming you don't look at the "PvP" section of the update you wouldn't even know without stepping into pvp.

 

On the note of "I don't like pvp so the devs shouldn't spend time on it" while I agree it should be on a lower priority due to less players, bringing this argument here is silly. It's like if I went into a thread asking for tank changes and saying "I don't play tank so the devs shouldn't spend time on them" that's just silly. Sure less people play pvp then people who play tanks but it does not really make the point valid.

 

I feel like alot of people just saw the words PvP after opening this thread and decided to use it as a place to vent their decade old gripes with pvp.

[pattycake]

The sheer hostility in this thread twords the simple idea of "make pvp more balanced" or even "do something with pvp" is baffling.

 

No hostility, challenging maybe, but you learn more from others who disagree most arguments can bring light to some perspectives than people who just agree, its nice though knowing others share the same interest and you may exchange even more ideas without mentioning how it can effect other areas in the game.

 

 

PVP CHANGES HAVE NO EFFECT ON PVE ANYMORE IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE ISSUE 13

 

This is true, and it is mentioned multiple times from multiple people, sometimes people jump the gun and paraphrase and it becomes broken telephoned. I know my first post I suggested adding a feature, and people kept referring the feature as a removal of another feature they hold dear to, but my advice to you from what I just learned about forum-Etiquette is ignore the NSS comments people make and concentrate on the people who actually point out things about the subject.. Like how it can spoil things for others, or loop-holes IDK, anything logical, those people are great to talk to.

 

 

[@Fiercefield]

Personally, I'd rather see the devs disable PVP altogether and repurpose the PVP zones into containing new story arcs and content for level 50 players.

 

Disadvantage: A minority who like to PVP no longer can.

 

Advantage: The majority who don't like to PVP get new content with the devs not needing to create entirely new zones, only new story arcs and mission interiors.

[Hyperstrike]

Sad how intolerant people are isn't it?

 

Could we please stop using politically loaded terms in passive-aggressive swipes at our fellow players?

 

We already have the capability to make this have no effect on PvE. There's also the fact that bringing weaker powersets up to scratch would be a benefit in PvE too, in some cases.

 

 

PVP CHANGES HAVE NO EFFECT ON PVE ANYMORE IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE ISSUE 13

 

 

 

Unless you've seen the code, not just an in-game info screen, you cannot say this with any sort of actual authority.

 

#StandardCodeRant

 

 

[Kaika]

Snip

Yeah I'm usually more reserved then that when discussing, guess this thread opened some old wounds I forgot I had.

 

Back on topic, though I don't pvp these days this has always been an issue with many sets simply not being up to the challenge. Sets like AR immediately come to mind with its lack luster single target damage, lack of aim for burst, and a heavily resisted damage type, though this isn't limited to pvp and more a issue to the set itself. I would give suggestion for ideas on how to fix sets like this, but I'm not up to date with the current pvp meta. All I know is this has been a extremely prevalent issue since pvp was introduced.

 

I sort of like the idea behind the "Dodge" power however adding a inherit power kinda break the rule of PvE players not having to even see anything dealing with PvP. Though I like the idea behind a global long cooldown, short duration "Avoid spike" as its was always really easy to fall to burst damage even if you see it coming a mile away. Powers that avoid this either not easily available to all classes or require quite a bit of investment.

[Kaika]

 

Unless you've seen the code, not just an in-game info screen, you cannot say this with any sort of actual authority.

 

#StandardCodeRant

You got me I haven't, but bold assumption to make a in a day and age when its publicly available.

 

Either way pvp runs on a entirely different system then pve, It's well known, and you can read about it here https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Player_vs_Player

 

I don't really need to look at the code because several power already have entirely different effects in pvp. Many powers that normally do short burst of small healing apply regen instead so it does not ramp up the healing DR making it so you can't heal when needed. This was a problem during the I13 beta and the solution they came to was to switch it to regen, this change had no effect on PvE. Powers already have vastly differing damage number in pvp compared to in pve usually based of their animation times. This was basicaly the entire point of the PvP changes in I13, it was so that they didn't have to dance around PvE when trying to balance pvp and its been adjusted several times since with no effect on pve.

[BlueDragoon]

Sad how intolerant people are isn't it?

 

Could we please stop using politically loaded terms in passive-aggressive swipes at our fellow players?

 

There's nothing politically loaded about the word "intolerant", the very definition of the word is "not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behaviour that differ from one's own" which is the VERY thing the PvE players have done to the PvP players in this topic. Look at this charming fellow for example, doesn't like PvP, doesn't want to know about it, and he even wants it removed at the expense of PvP players.

 

Personally, I'd rather see the devs disable PVP altogether and repurpose the PVP zones into containing new story arcs and content for level 50 players.

 

Disadvantage: A minority who like to PVP no longer can.

 

Advantage: The majority who don't like to PVP get new content with the devs not needing to create entirely new zones, only new story arcs and mission interiors.