A possible solution to the kheldian revamp

[Koopak]

5 hours ago, Laucianna said:

Feel like maybe the point is diverting from the Original post 😅

 

That's fair, in the context of the discussion my point is that the times on that sheet are more reflective of endgame performance than people often give credit.

 

The EXACT build @Clam Leader used for what is still the best PeaceBringer pylon time documented is the one they use in all normal play and routinely leave other players in the dust in clear speed while being able to briefly off tank in our 4 star runs.

 

Changling IS powerful and it IS game changing. But it also can't hold a candle to top end dps ATs, which is why I feel any fears of it being OP are unfounded. Now arguments about it being significantly stronger than non changling play are understandable as it necessitates a certain playstyle to get the most out of the AT, one many may find unacceptable. However I don't personally see that as appreciably different from the fact that to minmax a scrapper you have to take Hasten and optimize proc and rotation sets and in many sets case play Simon says with the set mechanics.

 

If you don't want to do that, then don't, because if you aren't willing to setup some binds and macros which have evolved to be nearly fool proof to use now to play optimally, you probably weren't willing to lock down 99% of your power and slot picks for optimal dps either and THATS OKAY.

What id love to see is someone spend some time optimizing both changling and non changling versions of both AT's triforms so we can stop spitballing about how powerful things are or arent and have some hard data beyond proof that even changling cant scratch dedicated dps ATs

Edited February 25 by Koopak

[Doomrider]

3 hours ago, Koopak said:

Changling IS powerful and it IS game changing. But it also can't hold a candle to top end dps ATs, which is why I feel any fears of it being OP are unfounded. Now arguments about it being significantly stronger than non changling play are understandable as it necessitates a certain playstyle to get the most out of the AT, one many may find unacceptable.

This isn't quite anecdotal, not quite precise data, but I ran some tests recently using my own PB builds to get a rough idea how much each component of the changeling build was contributing to my dps. I then ran another couple tests to see how it stood up to, what I consider the best non-changeling chain, both with procs and without to see the damage difference. No enflame shinanigans btw.

Build more or less stayed the same, with the same % of global recharge, ST damage powers slotting changed to test the differences of proc'd out versus minimal procs.
These tests are not super precise, but the important controls were in place (ie. the driver, the build and same incarnates used).

My 80 second average for full Changeling build is not quite as high as moogs, despite running very similar builds, but I'd say it's at least in the same wheelhouse as top end dps builds, just not the bleeding edge Illusion Dom, Bio Scrapper range we've being seeing lately.
That said, it is miles ahead of where the AT would be with minimal procs but still using -res procs and the optimal human chain. 

[FlammeFatale]

To come back to my original post, what I find nice with changeling is not the damage. As I said, I only use it for the warshade double-mire and the PB dwarf heal. Okay, I use it also to proc Warp perception, but this is a rare situational use. Kheldians, warshades in particular, do not need more damage. They have plenty already. If anything, what my warshade lacks the most is endurance. The boss combo I dislike the most is two mu guardians.

 

What I like with changeling is how it makes the combat flow feel smoother, more fluid. Else, I find the kheldian playstyle can be a be jagged and very clicky. 

I would not care about changeling removal, without any compensating buff to Kheldians, provided the devs find a way to make the gameplay smoother, with ideally less clicks. 

Perhaps something like triggering the form change automatically when using a power from a different form.

 

BTW, animation cancels works on some other ATs too. But I cannot find any discussion about it elsewhere than in the Kheldian section. 

 

 

Edited February 26 by FlammeFatale
edit: 2 mu guardians and 0 endurance left is not really a problem. I can always pop nebulous form + recovery serum. But I do not like using temp powers. My point here is that I really do not see what to buff in the AT. But smoother power flow is needed.

[Tiresias]

I feel like the problem with Kheldians isn't Changeling, it's the modularity of the class making decisions you make for one form worthless for the other forms.

 

Consider, if you will, the Druid class from WoW, which is similarly modular. The difference is that in WoW, you can build a single form of a Druid to do everything it needs to do for viability in a primary role: you can build a Bear Druid to tank, and it will tank as well as any other tank, and you can largely ignore the other forms except for utility.

 

You don't really get to do this with Kheldians. Sure, I've seen Human-only builds that function "fine", but we all know that tri-form is optimal, and the optimal way to play tri-form is via the "Changeling" build. Getting upset at people for doing what is optimal is both unreasonable and unfair.

 

The better solution is to make the "forms" extensions of the baseline Human form and NOT have all of the benefits of Human form "shut off" in the other forms. "Changeling" exists SPECIFICALLY to allow Human form to use its abilities alongside the other two forms -- all at once. The problem arises from the fact that this is NOT how the class was designed.

 

There needs to be a reason to change forms and STAY in that form for at least 15 to 30 seconds so that the form shift is MEANINGFUL. I don't have any specific ideas, but I DO feel like Human-form toggles should stay active in the other forms so that those forms can feel like they are fully-fledged characters in their own rights, but that are lacking critical elements that making staying in any one form permanently sub-optimal (but still viable!).

 

Honestly, the easiest way to stop the whole "Changeling" problem is likely to give Human form a short cooldown like the other two forms; in other words, you can't shift back to Human for 2 to 4 seconds after transforming.

[Greyhame]

I'd like to see: 

 

1. Mez protection in all forms
2. An inherent that is useful whether teamed or solo
3. All powers usable in all forms, but with significant form modifiers applied (i.e. Nova has high ranged damage and lowered melee damage and resist modifiers, Dwarf high melee and resist, low ranged, and Human more in-between)

Edited March 2 by Greyhame

[Clam Leader]

Whatever changes may come. There are 2 primairy things nessecery for the continued functionality of the ATs 

 

Number adjustments. At the moment Kheldians suck, this isn't a debatable statement. Our numbers are so bad that even with extensive animation canceling we are barely competetive in terms of dps. Our 'tank form' is too squishy to tank any content that is actually hard. Our dps form damage caps way to easily and lacks any heavy hitting blast that a blaster might use. Any rework has to address this issue or it will be a failure from the moment you say go.

 

And second we need a reason to want to use our forms, and this is where the inherant could come in. It could be as simple as micro defiance for nova and some sort of regen/taunt aura for dwarf. Just something to make you want the forms (human included) beyond 'I want to click dwarf mire'

[nicoliy]

I was trying to think of what I'd want in a revamp and outside of dream scenarios that are unrealistic, from a performance standpoint it's this (some are same/similar to others):

• I want to keep being Tri-form and play even harder into that
  • Individual forms to feel good, but absolutely great if using all and actively switching (kind of like how mires in WS enhance all forms).
  • I don't want to penalize someone for wanting to be x form only, but I'm not smart enough to solve having it both ways. To me forms swapping is a core design feature
  • I also feel like the sell of the class is for one to have the skill to master the dance
• Damage increase to be competitive, even if it requires some ramp up time to get there. I like the concept of mires and such, for example, but even with double mire you are still not as competitive as I think we need to be.
  • This is where I think maybe the inherent is reworked to give bonuses as you form swap. Entice me to think about how often I swap. Like human gives something like end/health recovery that lasts 5 seconds, squid dam/to hit, lobster mez protection/hp or resists. You maybe have to use a power in the form to trigger it though, or stay in for a couple seconds. The mastery of swapping through would then give you all the bonuses for being efficient at it, but individual forms are still buffed for what they do like now.
• For WS
  • Front load things like eclipse so that when I'm dragging out in a AV fight I can get better value.
  • If there's no bodies for things like extraction, let me sacrifice hp, even it it's like 50%. Really this goes back to the drawn out fights, normally not an issue. Same with the blow up the corpse move. If no body let me blow up my own and then stygian return or something.
• Mez protection - I want something here. With what it takes to form dance and wanting to lean into that, I don't want to feel like I have to live in tank form for mez. I am fine with it still being a risk, but it feels too defeating right now. I'm not as hard on this area though, we do need some weaknesses post revamp.

[Greyhame]

2 hours ago, nicoliy said:

For WS

• Front load things like eclipse so that when I'm dragging out in a AV fight I can get better value.
• If there's no bodies for things like extraction, let me sacrifice hp, even it it's like 50%. Really this goes back to the drawn out fights, normally not an issue.

 

 

These are both excellent QoL suggestions.  

[Psiphon]

As someone that struggles to play Khelds, I would simply remove the knock back.

I mainly pug and don't want to be the bad guy, disrupting the flow of the team by blasting the mobs all over the place. 

Obviously a kb to kd in the attacks would resolve this but that impacts the sets that I want to use. 

Simplistic and way below the discussion level that's going on I'm sure but it would get me playing them. 

[GM Crumpet]

11 hours ago, Psiphon said:

As someone that struggles to play Khelds, I would simply remove the knock back.

I mainly pug and don't want to be the bad guy, disrupting the flow of the team by blasting the mobs all over the place. 

Obviously a kb to kd in the attacks would resolve this but that impacts the sets that I want to use. 

Simplistic and way below the discussion level that's going on I'm sure but it would get me playing them. 

It's not a stupid suggestion. Sometimes even a basic change like you suggest makes for a very different playstyle and slotting. So many powers have a KB to KD proc that could be used for something else. I'm somewhat lost at the high end conversation myself, I can get behind a sensible suggestion I understand 🙂 

[CaptainMarvelous]

As someone who has been leveling a PB and trying out some builds, I'm thoroughly...whelmed. 

 

I think the core problem comes down to a few things:

• Kheldians are slot hungry yet slot starved, not to mention how many powers need or greatly benefit from a KB -> KD conversion
• Kheldians don't actually have that many useful abilities  to do rotations, necessitating outside propping up via Power Pools (Cross Punch my hated enemy)
• Kheldians are propped up by a handful of REALLY GOOD ABILITIES conversely (Light/Umbral Form, for example.)
• One form usually gets left in the dust due to cosmic balance for PBs unless you have a truly balanced team comp. 
• Kheldians need a lot of meta knowledge and focus to do what other classes can do minimally.

But I think if we gotta nail one thing: It's that the reward for a fully built kheldian isn't as high as it should be. Due to the triform, the requirements for perma-light/umbral form, the gameplay knowledge and skill to play one effectively, your reward is...a decent to slightly above average character. Which sucks. If I am putting in all this effort to learn PB/WS, fighting for my life, dumping millions to get enhancements, why am I still one of the worst ATs int he game? Worse yet, why is it that the tanker who is going full UNGA in gameplay mashing buttons without rhyme or reason is still getting better results?

 

There's a few possible non-buff solutions you can do, but I can think of a few ideas. Note that I'm not a balance expert so these are just cool ideas:

• Make the Kheldian form shifting bonus from the enhancement set inherent: This I think could really help hammer home the AT's strength as a stance-swapper. If you're encouraged at a baseline to swap forms? That'd be great and make there be more value in constantly swapping forms. As for the enhancement, you could buff it further and/or give it an additional benefit for swapping.
• Bonus Enhance Slots for forms only: Say every...~10 levels or so, you get an extra 5 slots. But these slots can ONLY be used for your transformations. Roughly this means by lvl 50 you essentially get an extra 25 slots but the key is they only go into your forms. Considering forms come with a handful of abilities, you'll have to pick-and-choose what gets upgraded. If it's too strong, you can also negate normal slots from going there. 
• A potential transformation "power": Currently when you transform, you just become the thing you're transforming into. What could potentially serve as a cool "power" is that when you turn into one form, you perform some kind of effect. Maybe Dwarf gains a surge of absorption, maybe Squid gets an explosive burst of "get off me". It'd need a longer CD to compensate but it'd feel a bit better in transforming. 
• Human Ability replaces Form ability if Stronger: Might be a coding nightmare, but if I've 6-slotted maxed out my eye beam, why am I using my squid's piddly baby form eye-beam? 
• Enhancement AT Sets for Kheldian Forms?: Would further make them an expensive AT to kit out, but it would be cool if there was a set specific to Dwarf/Nova form that functioned like a PVP set where you get minor bonuses when you slot them, but a huge bonus when you're -in- that respective form.
• Enable some Pool usage in forms?: Though I listed my disdain for it above, it's weird that I completely forget how to throw a haymaker when I turn into a dwarf or how I can no longer lead my team when I turn into nova form.

 

Anyways, I think Kheldians have a really interesting niche as a transforming AT but currently it feels like the reward for doing so isn't really worth the time, effort and IP sink to make them competitive. Not to mention it feels like many of the best benefits of the AT are not from the kit itself but by using 50% of your kit and supplementing the other 50% with outside sources. I'm sure not all the above suggestions are GREAT or perhaps even good, but I feel there's real value into digging deeper than just a flat bonus to kheldian abilities and removing KB from them. 

Edited March 22 by CaptainMarvelous

[tidge]

The above post has my sympathies on a couple of points, but I tend to think of these as features and not bugs:

 

6 hours ago, CaptainMarvelous said:

I think the core problem comes down to a few things:

• Kheldians are slot hungry yet slot starved, not to mention how many powers need or greatly benefit from a KB -> KD conversion
• Kheldians don't actually have that many useful abilities  to do rotations, necessitating outside propping up via Power Pools (Cross Punch my hated enemy)

 

Knockback really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Warshades get Shadow Slip, and on my recently leveled WS the only KB->KD piece I have slotted in is Quasar... because that's the power that is most likely to send dead bodies everywhere, and the WS needs corpses. Knockback is a soft control, and with a flying form that has KB, Kheldians are the perfect AT to learn how to vector KB. There is a learning/appreciation curve.

 

Re: Slots... I feel ya, but my current opinion is this: In the Nova and Dwarf forms, the point of diminishing returns hits really early... assuming you aren't investing a KB->KD piece in every one of them. Of course more slots helps a build get to more/better enhancement set bonuses, but I've made a tri-form build that has many of the attacks only 3-slotted. That build didn't take a pool power until level 38, and the last five power picks are all Enhancement mules with no extra slots invested in them.

 

I can't directly speak to the second point, except that by leveraging primarily the Human and Dwarf(*1) forms, my WS has more than enough useful abilities! I am noodling a "Human Only" build where I will try to use pool powers to supplement the Human-only attacks, but I don't imagine that concept is going to have more than one pool... and I'm not entirely sure it will play superior to my tri-form(*1). I'm thinking Force of Will as my one power pool pick, because it will give me a human-form fast travel power in Mighty Leap, a debuff that needs few slots (Weaken Resolve), a sweet AoE cone perfect for %damage (Wall of Force), and Unleashed Potential.

 

(*1) The Dwarf form's mezz protection is golden, and Black Dwarf Mire is simply too good a power to not slot. I'd be taking the Dwarf form as a mule anyway, so I can't imagine never using it. When using Dwarf form for Mezz protection, I absolutely want to use the melee attacks!

 

[Laucianna]

9 hours ago, CaptainMarvelous said:

As someone who has been leveling a PB and trying out some builds, I'm thoroughly...whelmed. 

 

I think the core problem comes down to a few things:

• Kheldians are slot hungry yet slot starved, not to mention how many powers need or greatly benefit from a KB -> KD conversion
• Kheldians don't actually have that many useful abilities  to do rotations, necessitating outside propping up via Power Pools (Cross Punch my hated enemy)
• Kheldians are propped up by a handful of REALLY GOOD ABILITIES conversely (Light/Umbral Form, for example.)
• One form usually gets left in the dust due to cosmic balance for PBs unless you have a truly balanced team comp. 
• Kheldians need a lot of meta knowledge and focus to do what other classes can do minimally.

But I think if we gotta nail one thing: It's that the reward for a fully built kheldian isn't as high as it should be. Due to the triform, the requirements for perma-light/umbral form, the gameplay knowledge and skill to play one effectively, your reward is...a decent to slightly above average character. Which sucks. If I am putting in all this effort to learn PB/WS, fighting for my life, dumping millions to get enhancements, why am I still one of the worst ATs int he game? Worse yet, why is it that the tanker who is going full UNGA in gameplay mashing buttons without rhyme or reason is still getting better results?

 

There's a few possible non-buff solutions you can do, but I can think of a few ideas. Note that I'm not a balance expert so these are just cool ideas:

• Make the Kheldian form shifting bonus from the enhancement set inherent: This I think could really help hammer home the AT's strength as a stance-swapper. If you're encouraged at a baseline to swap forms? That'd be great and make there be more value in constantly swapping forms. As for the enhancement, you could buff it further and/or give it an additional benefit for swapping.
• Bonus Enhance Slots for forms only: Say every...~10 levels or so, you get an extra 5 slots. But these slots can ONLY be used for your transformations. Roughly this means by lvl 50 you essentially get an extra 25 slots but the key is they only go into your forms. Considering forms come with a handful of abilities, you'll have to pick-and-choose what gets upgraded. If it's too strong, you can also negate normal slots from going there. 
• A potential transformation "power": Currently when you transform, you just become the thing you're transforming into. What could potentially serve as a cool "power" is that when you turn into one form, you perform some kind of effect. Maybe Dwarf gains a surge of absorption, maybe Squid gets an explosive burst of "get off me". It'd need a longer CD to compensate but it'd feel a bit better in transforming. 
• Human Ability replaces Form ability if Stronger: Might be a coding nightmare, but if I've 6-slotted maxed out my eye beam, why am I using my squid's piddly baby form eye-beam? 
• Enhancement AT Sets for Kheldian Forms?: Would further make them an expensive AT to kit out, but it would be cool if there was a set specific to Dwarf/Nova form that functioned like a PVP set where you get minor bonuses when you slot them, but a huge bonus when you're -in- that respective form.
• Enable some Pool usage in forms?: Though I listed my disdain for it above, it's weird that I completely forget how to throw a haymaker when I turn into a dwarf or how I can no longer lead my team when I turn into nova form.

 

Anyways, I think Kheldians have a really interesting niche as a transforming AT but currently it feels like the reward for doing so isn't really worth the time, effort and IP sink to make them competitive. Not to mention it feels like many of the best benefits of the AT are not from the kit itself but by using 50% of your kit and supplementing the other 50% with outside sources. I'm sure not all the above suggestions are GREAT or perhaps even good, but I feel there's real value into digging deeper than just a flat bonus to kheldian abilities and removing KB from them. 

I will say that with Kheldians it is more about slotting smartly then other ATs, to the point I wouldn't say it's a huge issue that needs to be addressed as you are meant to be playing a Kheldian with some knowledge on how to play etc.
Not sure if you mean human only here? As Tri form get a ton and if you don't pick up the forms then yeah you will have less powers 🙂 

I agree with the handful of useful abilities but I feel like (From when I used to play other ATs) that is a case for most power pools where you get your awesome powers, then your okay ones.

Not sure how cosmic balance is affecting your forms? I would treat our (in my opinion rubbish) inherent as a bonus more then something to rely on.

I do feel like the pay off for learning a Kheldian should be a higher, but I would say we are above the minimum of others lol 😄 

And with your suggestions I 100% agree our inherent should represent our form shifting not the team we are with ❤️

25 slots is HUGE, most I would see them adding is 1 slot ever 10 levels for an extra 5 at 50 (Which is still a big buff)
So you mean an activation power? That honestly sounds awesome and would encourage form shifting if say Nova had a free Inner light fire off when switching into it, and dwarf had a free aoe taunt as you switch into it! Honestly REALLY love that idea!

The eye beam thing is how it works, you slot one eye beam and it is basically just more powerful in Nova form ❤️ 

I don't see them making an enhancement set just for Kheldians beyond the ATOs sadly

And yeah I agree with using power pools in the forms, would add a sense of unity with the AT imo ❤️ 

 

 - Lauci x

Edited March 22 by Laucianna

[FlammeFatale]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I can't directly speak to the second point, except that by leveraging primarily the Human and Dwarf(*1) forms, my WS has more than enough useful abilities!

 

 

This is why my WS is bi-form.

 

I do not need the squid:

- quasar/ion/unchain clears the spawn

- my human ST attack chain finishes the bosses, and it has stronger ST damage than the dark nova.

 

This way I have more slots available.

Beside hasten, I use only 4 pool powers and they are all LOTG mules. This leaves even more slots for the archetype powers.

[CaptainMarvelous]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

<Stuff. Minimized for sake of post length>

 

So the problem with KB isn't necessarily that it's bad for you, but it makes doing team content with a kheldian a pain in the fucking ass. Say you're a tanker who just got everyone nice and grouped up or a dominator who placed the perfect CC puddle. Then Mr. Kheldian comes in and uses his big nuke and everyone goes into different planets. That sucks. It feels bad. Is KB conversion needed? No. But it makes them far more viable as teammates as opposed to being forced to stick around.

And a lot of what you list is exactly my point: You point to one-hit-wonder power pools that serve as mules more than anything else. In truth, only a handful of PB/WS skills are really great. But you use them all the time because...well, you don't have better options. So you focus more on pools to supplement all the missing pieces in the rotation.

 

48 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

 

Squished down for post size.

 

 - Lauci x

I'm referring specifically to tri-form, not so much human-only. While I know people like the playstyle I personally feel it's antithetical to the "spirit" of PB/WS. I know I'll get hate for it but yeah, it's like playing a minionless MM: Doable, maybe even good, but...why not just play a different class then save flavor? As for cosmic balance I just feel it's a passive that pushes you into other forms. More tanks? More damage. Why pick lobster when you got like +50% DPS.

 

You also highlight some other stuff which...well, I didn't -realize- that's how that worked. So I probably missed out on some stuff.

Enhancement slot criticism is fair, agreed.

Nova/Dwarf transform "abilities" would be stuff like that yeah. You can workshop specifically what would be correct but IMO it doing something with a slightly longer CD would make forms a bit more viable/powerful while also nerfing the changeling exploit.

[tidge]

I team with a lot of players who use KB, and while there are moments when it is a little crazy... It isn't something that upsets me, no matter what I am playing.

 

I want to note: there are quite a few low-level AOE immobilizes that negate KB. Some feel differently, but I think complaining about KB is from a different era of the game. Those attacks with KB get access to a number of different %procs too!

[Laucianna]

53 minutes ago, CaptainMarvelous said:

I'm referring specifically to tri-form, not so much human-only. While I know people like the playstyle I personally feel it's antithetical to the "spirit" of PB/WS. I know I'll get hate for it but yeah, it's like playing a minionless MM: Doable, maybe even good, but...why not just play a different class then save flavor? As for cosmic balance I just feel it's a passive that pushes you into other forms. More tanks? More damage. Why pick lobster when you got like +50% DPS.

Just do double check you mean human only is like minionless MM right? 😄 Personally I am not too worried if they enjoy it, but I wouldn't want a rework for Kheldians to have human only in mind as that isn't what a Kheldian is meant to be. Cosmic balance also becomes useless once you get perma eclipse/lightform for resist, and damage on leagues is easily capped.

[GM Crumpet]

10 hours ago, CaptainMarvelous said:

So the problem with KB isn't necessarily that it's bad for you, but it makes doing team content with a kheldian a pain in the fucking ass. Say you're a tanker who just got everyone nice and grouped up or a dominator who placed the perfect CC puddle. Then Mr. Kheldian comes in and uses his big nuke and everyone goes into different planets. That sucks. It feels bad. Is KB conversion needed? No. But it makes them far more viable as teammates as opposed to being forced to stick around.

And a lot of what you list is exactly my point: You point to one-hit-wonder power pools that serve as mules more than anything else. In truth, only a handful of PB/WS skills are really great. But you use them all the time because...well, you don't have better options. So you focus more on pools to supplement all the missing pieces in the rotation.

 

I'm referring specifically to tri-form, not so much human-only. While I know people like the playstyle I personally feel it's antithetical to the "spirit" of PB/WS. I know I'll get hate for it but yeah, it's like playing a minionless MM: Doable, maybe even good, but...why not just play a different class then save flavor? As for cosmic balance I just feel it's a passive that pushes you into other forms. More tanks? More damage. Why pick lobster when you got like +50% DPS.

 

You also highlight some other stuff which...well, I didn't -realize- that's how that worked. So I probably missed out on some stuff.

Enhancement slot criticism is fair, agreed.

Nova/Dwarf transform "abilities" would be stuff like that yeah. You can workshop specifically what would be correct but IMO it doing something with a slightly longer CD would make forms a bit more viable/powerful while also nerfing the changeling exploit.

I have to agree. I'll farm occasionally and always open the farm to other players, and sometimes have to threaten to coat the kheld in batter and deep fry them if they don't stop "helping". I'm herding all the enemies into  nice tight bunch then Mister unslotted squid comes along and scatters them to the four winds just before my nuke goes off. Or my AoE. It's so annoying 🙂 

[Whitest Light]

The KB to KD suggestion is probably my #1 "simplest-but-most-effective" change I'd make to Khelds.

 

If we want to go hog-wild on ideas (this is from a PB perspective):

#1a. Make both Nova and Dwarf forms inherent at 4 and 20, respectively. That means every Kheldian is Tri-Form now and you can balance around it. It also saves 2 power picks.

#1b. All duplicate powers (or near-duplicates) share a single slotting between Human and shapeshifted forms. Gleaming/Nova Bolt, Proton/Nova Scatter, Luminous/Nova Detonation, Gleaming/Nova Blast, Radiant/Dwarf Strike, Incandescent/Dwarf Smite. That saves a ton of slots and makes it so the powers/forms never get "left behind" because you can't afford to slot them. If you don't pick up, say, Proton Scatter in Human form you don't get the power just because Nova Form has it but if you do pick it up, you don't have to slot Nova form. 

#2. The Human Shields need to add incomplete Mez protection of some kind. Shining might offer knockback and immobilization. Thermal offers hold, sleep. Quantum adds stun, terrorize, etc. If you get all three, you get full protection, though maybe only Mag 3 like Light Form. The point being, you shouldn't have to rely on Dwarf for mez protection nor have to wait until Light Form. 

#4. Inner Light and Light Form (maybe Essence Boost?) should be accessible from all forms. I'm ok with toggles and other click powers staying Human-only but these click powers are Kheldian-specific and carry over anyway so dropping to Human just to click them feels unnecessary.

#5. Make Photon Seekers "true" albeit short-lived pets. For 55 out of 60 seconds, they are non-suicidal light balls that shoot Gleaming Bolts. In the last 5 seconds, they operate as current (death-seeking grenades). The player can manually activate their suicidal approach by setting them to Aggressive. 

#6. Replace Glinting Eye for the equivalent of Barrage from Energy Melee. The choice between melee and ranged at the beginning communicates that the PB is not a ranged AT. Second, the single-target chain for PBs in melee is lacking a "light" attack filler between Radiant Strike and I Strike. This Barrage-like ability could replace the current "Dwarf Bolt" attack. The loser in this exchange is Nova, where Glinting Eye was actually pretty strong but it has two ST blasts as it is and if 1b occurs, its Nova Bolt might be slotted.

#7. Pulsar needs help. Redesign, make it available in Nova form (?), I don't know. I know I've never used it and I can't recall seeing anyone else use it either.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Whitest Light

[Arganas]

I remember making posts like this back in the official forums...pie in the sky wishes...always got crapped on for wanting more when everyone just "knew" that PB's were "supposed to suck"...ahh the good ol' days.

 

I always wished the Shields were defense focused rather than resistance.  We have so many sources of resistance in the kit, and with toggles dropping when form shifting it made toggles pretty useless.  Toggles dropping when form shifting not being an issue anymore is a huge step forward, but yeah, so many sources of resistance but no mez protection just leaves them lackluster still.  Minor mez resists and swapping them from damage type resistances to damage type defenses on them would be nice, and makes them a more valuable power pick later in a build since its a layered defense if/when you build out Light form.

 

I think inherent form shifts is a good idea, its two more power choices we can put towards other things, which gives us wiggle room in builds for things like power pools, or shield toggles, or things that otherwise tend to be first on the chopping block.  That said, I also feel like click buffs/heals should be usable in all forms, but not part of the forms kits...if Dwarf becomes Inherent, Dwarf Sublimation/Drain goes away and we can drop Reform Essence/Essence Drain over/down to level 20 in the defense trees...might have to do some power juggling for WS since they don't get an essence boost, instead they get stygian circle and having essence drain and it basically one after the other might be awkward.. And PB's would get some "Paladin"y flavor if they can glowing touch regardless of what form they're in..might make it a more valuable power option that way too.

 

Inherent Knockback to knockdown...that really should just be a basic toggle everyone can flip on or off at will...make the enhancements do something else.

 

Pulsar should just plain have a higher magnitude disorient on it, and toss on a heavy accuracy debuff...you literally flashbang people.  Why isnt that big flash of light actually blinding enemies?

 

I also like the idea of photon seekers being annoying little buzzing bees that flit around spewing weak energy bolts at everything before self destructing...

 

BUT...I feel any true change to Kheldians is gonna have to come to grips with their base Inherent abilities...useless when solo, and often "gilding the lily" unless you're in a thought out premade and specifically balanced team.  I feel the inherent would be better served as a boost to the kheldian when solo, that as you add party members, shifts into providing buffs for their team instead (Personal Buff is 80% at 1 teammate, 60% at 2, 40% at 3, 20% at 4, and gone 5-8, team buff would grow 10-20-30-40-55-70-85-100% respectively).  Now what those self boons and team buffs could be?  Eh, id say PB's would best be served with personal damage shifting to team defense, and Warshade personal defense shifting to team damage.  Or whatever variation folks would prefer...I don't know...I feel thematically PB's solo burn bright, but when in a team would be more focused on defending their allies, and alone a WS would care more about their own survival and when in a team would then cut loose since they don't have to watch their backs.  That's just me though, and I'm biased since I only really played PB's.

 

 

But yeah, pie in the sky rebalancing wishes?  Specific numbers or effects aside (Since I suck at math), those would be what I'd like to see.

 

[The Trouble]

Dwarf forms need some layer of defense.  Both Kheldian types can cap their resistances with just SO's in human form, even if temporarily.   It makes one of the key selling points of Dwarf redundant.

 

So how about "form charging"?  Take form-thematic buffs into the other forms.  Make those buffs last equal (or proportional) to the time you spent in that form.

 

Spending up to X seconds in Nova grants a Damage and ToHit buff once you shift.

Spending up to X seconds in Dwarf grants Mez resistance and +Defense once you shift.

 

This encourages shifting without punishing human-only types.  Not perfect ideas, but I'd like to put them in the pile regardless.

 

 

[Videra]

The major rub with Kheldians at this point is, simply, not changeling. Changeling isn't an issue - it's not broken, or overpowered.

PB and WS both barely break the mid-tier scrapper benchmark with Changeling and a good build. Tri-form, Human Only, Dwarf and Nova are all painfully under-tuned. Hell, Warshade has exactly two human form powers that have a DPA higher than boxing. Without Changeling? Our ability to do damage - at our miniscule damage cap and fully proc'd - is comparable to a Fire Blast defender with minimal procs and no debuffs.

We literally just need a BIG 'Number Go Up' pass, not a huge revamp, not an overhaul, alongside some QoL. Examples include:

1) Nova inheriting travel powers. EX: Energy Flight, Shadow Slip.
2) Seamless form switching. EX: You press white dwarf smite, you transform and execute - so on, so forth. Doable with macros, but it should be baked in.
3) An inherent that actually matters - in a group setting becoming stronger based on your team composition isn't useful. You're already going to be at damage cap with any level of co-ordination,  res capped, HP capped, among other things. It's a cool idea, just not useful, realistically.

However, I'd like to see some major changes later, obviously - I'd prefer Khelds be made playable without an exploit first, though. Forms being expanded on, for example: being able to cast Quasar or Dawnstrike in Nova, more attacks in dwarf, and a complete redux of dud powers like Pulsar, GEF, Gravimetric Snare and others. Do something cool with Gravimetric Snare, maybe have it be a draw-in like axe cyclone, stuff like that.

But that's the big one for me. Just give us a numbers pass so we can perform similar to maximum effort changeling with good ol' tri-form. I'd rather see a good balance pass happen for us first and a rework of our *really* bad powers second. Sometimes just making numerical tweaks is good.

Edited May 29 by Videra

[ScarySai]

Simple buffs could fix it easily enough, though I think something like what Rebirth did with a few differences would also work fairly well. My main gripes there were shared cds on mires/both emanations, but everything else was basically rock solid.

 

And I think there's nothing the HC power's team would hate more than the idea that rebirth absolutely schooled them on khelds.

[arkieboy72472]

On 3/21/2024 at 10:38 PM, CaptainMarvelous said:

As someone who has been leveling a PB and trying out some builds, I'm thoroughly...whelmed. 

 

I think the core problem comes down to a few things:

• Kheldians are slot hungry yet slot starved, not to mention how many powers need or greatly benefit from a KB -> KD conversion
• Kheldians don't actually have that many useful abilities  to do rotations, necessitating outside propping up via Power Pools (Cross Punch my hated enemy)
• Kheldians are propped up by a handful of REALLY GOOD ABILITIES conversely (Light/Umbral Form, for example.)
• One form usually gets left in the dust due to cosmic balance for PBs unless you have a truly balanced team comp. 
• Kheldians need a lot of meta knowledge and focus to do what other classes can do minimally.

But I think if we gotta nail one thing: It's that the reward for a fully built kheldian isn't as high as it should be. Due to the triform, the requirements for perma-light/umbral form, the gameplay knowledge and skill to play one effectively, your reward is...a decent to slightly above average character. Which sucks. If I am putting in all this effort to learn PB/WS, fighting for my life, dumping millions to get enhancements, why am I still one of the worst ATs int he game? Worse yet, why is it that the tanker who is going full UNGA in gameplay mashing buttons without rhyme or reason is still getting better results?

 

There's a few possible non-buff solutions you can do, but I can think of a few ideas. Note that I'm not a balance expert so these are just cool ideas:

• Make the Kheldian form shifting bonus from the enhancement set inherent: This I think could really help hammer home the AT's strength as a stance-swapper. If you're encouraged at a baseline to swap forms? That'd be great and make there be more value in constantly swapping forms. As for the enhancement, you could buff it further and/or give it an additional benefit for swapping.
• Bonus Enhance Slots for forms only: Say every...~10 levels or so, you get an extra 5 slots. But these slots can ONLY be used for your transformations. Roughly this means by lvl 50 you essentially get an extra 25 slots but the key is they only go into your forms. Considering forms come with a handful of abilities, you'll have to pick-and-choose what gets upgraded. If it's too strong, you can also negate normal slots from going there. 
• A potential transformation "power": Currently when you transform, you just become the thing you're transforming into. What could potentially serve as a cool "power" is that when you turn into one form, you perform some kind of effect. Maybe Dwarf gains a surge of absorption, maybe Squid gets an explosive burst of "get off me". It'd need a longer CD to compensate but it'd feel a bit better in transforming. 
• Human Ability replaces Form ability if Stronger: Might be a coding nightmare, but if I've 6-slotted maxed out my eye beam, why am I using my squid's piddly baby form eye-beam? 
• Enhancement AT Sets for Kheldian Forms?: Would further make them an expensive AT to kit out, but it would be cool if there was a set specific to Dwarf/Nova form that functioned like a PVP set where you get minor bonuses when you slot them, but a huge bonus when you're -in- that respective form.
• Enable some Pool usage in forms?: Though I listed my disdain for it above, it's weird that I completely forget how to throw a haymaker when I turn into a dwarf or how I can no longer lead my team when I turn into nova form.

 

Anyways, I think Kheldians have a really interesting niche as a transforming AT but currently it feels like the reward for doing so isn't really worth the time, effort and IP sink to make them competitive. Not to mention it feels like many of the best benefits of the AT are not from the kit itself but by using 50% of your kit and supplementing the other 50% with outside sources. I'm sure not all the above suggestions are GREAT or perhaps even good, but I feel there's real value into digging deeper than just a flat bonus to kheldian abilities and removing KB from them. 

Thank you for saying this, especially the first point. I can't tell you how many times I have been told I am doing wrong or "if I built it the right way" (from other kheldians) I wouldn't have these issues.

[Laucianna]

9 hours ago, arkieboy72472 said:

Thank you for saying this, especially the first point. I can't tell you how many times I have been told I am doing wrong or "if I built it the right way" (from other kheldians) I wouldn't have these issues.

To me I am sure all powersets want more slots, especially energy based attacks if you are talking for the kb/kd conversion. But Kheldians and VEATs are based around be harder to learn/build due to initially needing to be level 50 for them, and why when creating one it says not to for a first time experience.

Personally I do not want all the difficulty of playing/building a Kheldian taken away from it as that is part of the charm of the AT, learning and mastering it to an extent where things that initially stumped you, you have overcome, using slots wisely is a huge part of that and it makes each build more interesting in my opinion as each player should value each slot they are given.

So for me personally I would not want a rework to have a heavy focus on slots as that isn't what makes us weak, but simply a hurdle we learn to overcome and come out the other end stronger and more knowledgeable ❤️