Is the in-game economy weird and broken?

[Yomo Kimyata]

54 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Yomo may not toot his own horn every time -- so I'll do it for him. He is, to my knowledge, the first confirmed Trillionaire in Homecoming.

 

Toot-toot mother-[AIR HORN BLOWS]

 

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 2/5/2024 at 1:46 PM, Perfidy said:

I suspect Yomo may even be close to 1 trillion by now, depending on how active he's been.  

 

 

[MonteCarla]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

There's at least one other server out there that's changed TO/DO/SO leveling scales so that these enhancements work over a wider range of levels than just +/- 3 to your character. Maybe that's something worth investigating.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of this.

I tend to use SO's up to the mid 20s and then start swapping them out with sets.

My enhancements never go off because of that handy-dandy new Upgrade button - if I see them drop below my level I just press it, lose a million or so maybe (which is dream money to a new player) and sidestep the "everything you own is now worthless" moment.

 

Why should that be the privilege of the rich?

 

The market itself works wonderfully, by the way. Homecoming's converter-based economy is fantastic - anyone can get rich by doing content and a few light market tricks if they know how. Or get mega-rich by helping out their fellow supers and crafting enhancements and listing them. 

 

It's the low-end, new-player experience that's a problem.

[Duckbutler]

Yeah, I feel like the economy here is way better than it was on the original servers, too. Even just as a poor, non-farming alt-aholic. As long as I'm selling what I *do* get via consignment and trading with other players, I'll get enough to make myself a cheap set of level 25 common enhancements for every character when they get to that point. I may need to loan money from one character to another but I can usually return it. Back on the live servers I remember trying to survive off that same level of enhancement because they were supposed to be cheap. Runs on salvage could push the cost of low level salvage up to where level 25 accuracy enhancements cost as much to make as level 50 enhancements. I often used SOs all the way to 50 because they were available on demand and cheaper short term solutions. Now, with all the salvage being interchangeable, that problem is completely eliminated.

[Azari]

Make 3 accounts and 3 bio/rad tanks.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

It's the low-end, new-player experience that's a problem.

Part and parcel of that is the misconception that you should have or are entitled to have all your enhancement slots filled with enhancements granting the maximum possible benefit.  Get out of that notion, and you've solved the problem.  If you don't like that, read and follow one of the numerous guides on how to generate wealth in-game.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Why should that be the privilege of the rich?

 

The market itself works wonderfully, by the way. Homecoming's converter-based economy is fantastic - anyone can get rich by doing content and a few light market tricks if they know how. Or get mega-rich by helping out their fellow supers and crafting enhancements and listing them. 

 

Is it privilege if anyone can do it?

[MonteCarla]

Not everyone can do it because not everyone knows how to do it, Yomo. So yeah, its the privilege of experience and education.

 

I'm not saying that a new player should be able to stuff all their slots with SO's straight away, Biostem. Just that they shouldn't work hard with their limited resources and knowledge to afford a few SO's, and then have them all suddenly become worthless when they level up (which is meant to be a mini-celebration). That is a really horrible experience, and may well drive people away.

 

Imagine if TO/DO/SO's didn't go off with level.  A new player can slot up on TO's, and then maybe afford a couple of DO's at some point with their meagre earnings from just fighting crime and being a superhero/villain. Maybe they have big end problems, and save up for a End Mod SO in Stamina. Ahh, relief! Maybe they save up for a couple of Damage SO's in their favourite attack and really feel the punch it gives. At some point they're flush enough to have everything slotted with SO's, maybe from a nice drop they get and sell. That sounds like a rewarding levelling curve to me.

 

Zombra's initial post is that she doesn't enjoy being told to go play the market with a whole bunch of what to a new player are weird instructions. I can get that.

 

I don't think the new player experience should be "stop playing, go read some guides on a forum, or we'll take your hard-earned toys away!" And it currently kind of is that when normal enhancements expire.

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, MonteCarla said:

Not everyone can do it because not everyone knows how to do it, Yomo. So yeah, its the privilege of experience and education.

 

I figured out how to buy converters from a merit vendor, convert set IOs and make inf* selling them on the market.  I didn't read a guide, didn't ask any questions, and I had no experience using converters prior to that.

 

Wealth is not a "privilege" on the HC servers.  This isn't the real world, no-one has to be born into it or trained extensively to attain it.  All it takes is being smarter than a doorknob.

[Duckbutler]

As things are, I think new players should be directed at common IOs and steered away from SOs entirely. Maybe call attention to the level 25 breakpoint and that they don't necessarily need anything higher level than that. Market tricks and everything else can wait until people are ready to discover those for themselves or become invested enough to go looking for guides. Even if people make themselves IOs that are below level 25, those still won't ever go bad and will be incredibly cheap long term. That buys them time to learn and do better on the next character or eventually save up and replace their early 10/15/20 slots with 25s.

 

Playing countless new alts over the last month, I can kit a new character out with a complete set of self-built level 25 IOs for about 2 million at level 22. On average I'm halfway there just on selling rare salvage the character has earned. On my first character, where I didn't find the XP booster that also turns off influence gains, I was well in excess of that... or I would have been had I not messed with the SOs at all.

 

Sets, builds, market tricks, etc can all wait. I think the best advice I found was in the brute forum where someone said, "You don't need a build, you need a strategy." You don't need any of these market tricks if you aren't trying to build an expensive character right off the bat.

Edited February 7 by Duckbutler

[Ironblade]

9 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Not everyone can do it because not everyone knows how to do it, Yomo. So yeah, its the privilege of experience and education.

No, Yomo is correct.  Everyone literally CAN do it.

If it's privilege in any way at all, it's the privilege of having more experience with the game.

 

It seems to me this is common to all games: you start out not being very good at it.  You don't know how to make money.  You don't know the enemy powers.  You don't know the mechanics of the game engine.  You don't know the enemy AI.  Out of all the activities in the game, you don't even know which you enjoy or if you will enjoy any of it.  Play and discover.

[Ironblade]

2 hours ago, Duckbutler said:

As things are, I think new players should be directed at common IOs and steered away from SOs entirely. Maybe call attention to the level 25 breakpoint and that they don't necessarily need anything higher level than that.

Good news!  One of the new features for the 'New Player Experience' is that you will automatically be introduced to the contact for the invention tutorial when you hit level 10.  This was prompted by the influx of new players and is currently on the test server so it should go live within a couple weeks.  The tutorial is decent and I recommend everyone run it once to learn the ropes.

 

Actual text from the patch notes:

"When training to level 10, a pop-up will inform you how to begin the Invention tutorial (this pop-up will also automatically unlock the Invention tutorial contact relevant to your faction)."

[tidge]

The Homecoming game makes it very easy to slot powers with very useful Enhancements (including IOs) for next to no effort... It still requires effort however.

[Duckbutler]

21 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Good news!  One of the new features for the 'New Player Experience' is that you will automatically be introduced to the contact for the invention tutorial when you hit level 10.  This was prompted by the influx of new players and is currently on the test server so it should go live within a couple weeks.  The tutorial is decent and I recommend everyone run it once to learn the ropes.

 

Actual text from the patch notes:

"When training to level 10, a pop-up will inform you how to begin the Invention tutorial (this pop-up will also automatically unlock the Invention tutorial contact relevant to your faction)."

That IS good news! I had a few bumps picking the game up again last month. Knowing that you need to trade with other players is super basic MMO stuff, and once I figured out that you need to do just one DFB for the tohit buff and then pick up enhancements when that wears off at... guess what? 22! That fixed most of the issue.

[Ironblade]

6 minutes ago, Duckbutler said:

That IS good news! I had a few bumps picking the game up again last month. Knowing that you need to trade with other players is super basic MMO stuff, and once I figured out that you need to do just one DFB for the tohit buff and then pick up enhancements when that wears off at... guess what? 22! That fixed most of the issue.

 

Here's something else that's not as widely known.  There is a second trial, like Death From Below, called Drowning In Blood.  It's for level 15+ and it ALSO gives buffs at the end that last for one week of in-game time or until you hit level 30.  Run DFB for the buff, then run DIB before you hit 22 and you're set for a while.  I hardly ever see people looking for members for the DIB trial, though.

[Duckbutler]

Yeah, I think the more common path is to run DFB, then either go into the Posi 1 & 2 task forces you eventually need to do for Task Force Commander anyway or find a radio team. Both options have you sailing into the mid to late 20's pretty effortlessly. The task forces are more fun, personally. I'm not relying on whatever motivates a level 50 with incarnates to invite a bunch of new lowbie characters to tag along.

[DarkSavior]

Your post reads more like how do I gear up? than if the economy is broken.   I was wondering the same, as I just came back to CoH recently upon hearing the news about them getting the license.  Here is the information I found to be the most legitimately helpful.  

Don't sweat enhancements until you reach level 22.  At that point, sell off your orange and yellow salvage/recipes.  Barring incredibly bad luck, you will by that point have enough to get 1 or 2 million influence.  Now go to the University, and craft level 25 IOs for all your powers.  These match the value of SO's and do not diminish as you level.  This strategy can last you all the way to level 50.  Once you hit 50, you should have alot more salvage and recipes to sell, do so, and replace all your 25 IOs with level 50 IOs, and you are well positioned to start working on getting sets and Incarnates.  All pretty easy to do with just IOs.  

If you are more into using AE instead, then when you run those missions get AE tickets instead of regular rewards, and every 540 tickets, you can buy orange salvage, this is 300-350k per on the AH, and can easily fund your IOs as well.  Good luck. 

Edited February 9 by DarkSavior

[Skyhawke]

10 minutes ago, DarkSavior said:

Your post reads more like how do I gear up? than if the economy is broken.   I was wondering the same, as I just came back to CoH recently upon hearing the news about them getting the license.  Here is the information I found to be the most legitimately helpful.  

Don't sweat enhancements until you reach level 22.  At that point, sell off your orange and yellow salvage/recipes.  Barring incredibly bad luck, you will by that point have enough to get 1 or 2 million influence.  Now go to the University, and craft level 25 IOs for all your powers.  These match the value of SO's and do not diminish as you level.  This strategy can last you all the way to level 50.  Once you hit 50, you should have alot more salvage and recipes to sell, do so, and replace all your 25 IOs with level 50 IOs, and you are well positioned to start working on getting sets and Incarnates.  All pretty easy to do with just IOs.  

If you are more into using AE instead, then when you run those missions get AE tickets instead of regular rewards, and every 540 tickets, you can buy orange salvage, this is 300-350k per on the AH, and can easily fund your IOs as well.  Good luck. 

 

Add in the merit rewards to enhancement boosters flip and you've learned well, Grasshopper! 👍

[WuTang]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:28 AM, Riverdusk said:

Honestly even a brand new character can do alright with doing nothing but selling their salvage and recipe drops on the auction house.  Not really more convoluted than that.  Biggest issue I usually see for new characters/players is them not realizing how much orange salvage is worth or thinking for some reason they should horde it, or I guess them not knowing the auction house exists at all.  Those would be the bigger barriers.

Yup! I was worried about inf at first like we all are (only a month in myself), and being I've always worked the market in past games, that was my first instinct here too, but this AH is a different beast. But after some great advice, here on these forums, and a few lucky drops of that aether stuff (3mil a pop), some orange salvage (400k a pop), and some recipes that only required yellow salvage that I then crafted and sold (5-6 mil each) I'm not so worried about cash flow. Also my only advice to my fellow newbs, don't blow your inf on vendor purchased enhancements. Even the common crafted, non-set enhancements (still don't know the jargen), are way better as they do not diminish as you level. I'm just leveling, playing, and having fun now...and straight up just sell what drops and am doing fine. I ain't no billionaire but I don't think ya have to be.

Be stress free it's soooooo much more fun.

[Lockely]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:49 AM, Luminara said:

 

I figured out how to buy converters from a merit vendor, convert set IOs and make inf* selling them on the market.  I didn't read a guide, didn't ask any questions, and I had no experience using converters prior to that.

 

Wealth is not a "privilege" on the HC servers.  This isn't the real world, no-one has to be born into it or trained extensively to attain it.  All it takes is being smarter than a doorknob.

 

You have to take into account that the new blood Homecoming needs to be directing their efforts to are the subset of people who 1) still play MMOs in 2024, and 2) aren't already used to CoH's archaic systems. 

I've tried getting friends into this game. Some have been successful. Most got to level 10-20, said the game felt clunky and the enhancement systems overly complex with poor in-game info on them, and that they kept running out of money without being able to fill up their powers, and uninstalled it.

Thre's a reason I've been so active in the NPE threads both on beta and around here, and it's because I'm literally watching people try and immediately leave this game. We can't support it forever on the lineage of old players. We need new blood to pick it up, and if that means making some of the pain points easier, then we should. None of those pain points are going to matter once you get your first 50 and start doing end-game content anyway, so why make it harder than it needs to be in the interim?

[Luminara]

14 minutes ago, Lockely said:

You have to take into account that the new blood Homecoming needs to be directing their efforts to are the subset of people who 1) still play MMOs in 2024, and 2) aren't already used to CoH's archaic systems.

 

It took me 15 minutes of poking and prodding to figure out how to make inf*.  I'd never spent a merit before, nor used a converter, and after 8 years of not playing, I didn't even have a memory to refresh when it came to using the AH.  15 minutes.  So no, having experience playing Co* doesn't equate to privileged access to wealth.

 

As for your other point, if they're not interested in playing an MMORPG, how the hell is privilege even relevant?  Disinterest isn't disadvantage, it's personal preference.

[Lockely]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

It took me 15 minutes of poking and prodding to figure out how to make inf*.  I'd never spent a merit before, nor used a converter, and after 8 years of not playing, I didn't even have a memory to refresh when it came to using the AH.  15 minutes.  So no, having experience playing Co* doesn't equate to privileged access to wealth.

 

As for your other point, if they're not interested in playing an MMORPG, how the hell is privilege even relevant?  Disinterest isn't disadvantage, it's personal preference.

 

They play other MMOs, plenty of them. FFXIV, WoW, GW2. Those games save the complex systems, money sinks, and grinds for end-game content. Here they're upfront and when you get to end-game it actually gets easier. We have the whole thing backwards.

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Lockely said:

They play other MMOs, plenty of them. FFXIV, WoW, GW2. Those games save the complex systems, money sinks, and grinds for end-game content. Here they're upfront and when you get to end-game it actually gets easier. We have the whole thing backwards.

 

Play game.  Acquire merits.  Notice merit vendor.  Click merit vendor.  See stuff.  Spend merits on stuff.  Use stuff to make inf* from AH.

No PhD required.

[Clave Dark 5]

13 hours ago, Lockely said:

 

You have to take into account that the new blood Homecoming needs to be directing their efforts to are the subset of people who 1) still play MMOs in 2024, and 2) aren't already used to CoH's archaic systems. 

I've tried getting friends into this game. Some have been successful. Most got to level 10-20, said the game felt clunky and the enhancement systems overly complex with poor in-game info on them, and that they kept running out of money without being able to fill up their powers, and uninstalled it.

Thre's a reason I've been so active in the NPE threads both on beta and around here, and it's because I'm literally watching people try and immediately leave this game. We can't support it forever on the lineage of old players. We need new blood to pick it up, and if that means making some of the pain points easier, then we should. None of those pain points are going to matter once you get your first 50 and start doing end-game content anyway, so why make it harder than it needs to be in the interim?

I applaud your aims and efforts, but this really sounds like someone given their first oyster to eat and they gave up as soon as they saw the shell (and level 10- to 20, that's like what, an hour or two?).  Maybe they were under the erroneous assumption that they should be pimped out by level 6?  My first few toons when HC came back still had unslotted gaps in their build by the time I hit 50 and I was still playing well enough. 

 

Seems like a "you can lead a horse to water" situation.  Not everyone's going to understand the appeal.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I applaud your aims and efforts, but this really sounds like someone given their first oyster to eat and they gave up as soon as they saw the shell (and level 10- to 20, that's like what, an hour or two?).  Maybe they were under the erroneous assumption that they should be pimped out by level 6?

 

The MMORPGs given as examples are all gear treadmills, with the game giving the player leveling gear each time they complete quests, with gear constantly being replaced, so having to purchase all of one's gear (enhancements) or get "lucky" drops does present a hurdle for players accustomed to that model of progression.  The "problem" is that we don't have a gear treadmill, and acquiring "best-in-slot" gear, set IOs, requires the player to interact with the market or spend merits.  They come into the game expecting to be given what they need to progress, rather than being given the option to acquire what they want to progress.  And there is no solution which doesn't have game-wide ramifications.

 

If the game is changed to automatically grant all of the enhancements, even if it's just SOs, that a character needs while leveling, the sub-25 content is unbalanced.  Most of that content was designed around the expectation that players wouldn't be fully slotted, and what they had slotted wouldn't be at maximal efficiency.

 

If the game is changed to guarantee players all of the inf*/merits they need to be fully slotted, the same balance conundrum is present and the player-driven economy is horse-fucked.

 

And even if there were a way to make Co* more accessible to players accustomed to gear treadmill progression, without alienating the existing player base, it wouldn't be satisfactory because we don't have an end game.  A player can have a full end-game build within 5 minutes of hitting 50, by purchasing purples and Superiors from the AH and /respec.  We have unlimited content in the form of scanner/newspaper missions, tips, Ouroboros, *Fs, Trials, PUGs, GM hunting and other activities which don't grant material rewards, but the end-game grind people have come to expect from playing other MMORPGs isn't present here, so they don't see anything to work toward.

 

That's the real impediment to bringing players from other MMORPGs here.  They're accustomed to a straight path that leads to a mountain which takes a long time to climb.  Co* gives players a path that meanders through hilly terrain.  It's not a matter of in-game finances, but of expectation and personal preference.