Recluses Victory 2.0

[Ston]

Introduction:
As a player who enjoys PvP, I would love to see an expansion to our current PvP zones that drives more players to participate in them.

Problem:
There are A LOT of factors that are currently driving players away from PvP. Some of the most impactful are:

1. Lack of meaningful rewards
2. Lack of participation
3. Builds performing vastly different in PvP and PvE content
4. The large gap in skill/knowledge between veteran PvP players and newcomers

Proposed Solution:

My proposed idea to address some of the mentioned problems is a large revamp to the lvl 50 PvP zone, Recluse's Victory. Currently, the zone is mostly populated by experienced PvP players who play against each other with the goal of securing kills. Players will largely ignore the zone objectives. My thought is that you can encourage players to participate in the zone mechanics by increasing rewards and updating the zone objectives.

 

Taking a look at the problems I mentioned above, updating the zone could address them in the following ways:

1. Add a new currency that is rewarded by participating in and securing zone objectives.
   1. There needs to be rewards for players that devote their time to PvP gameplay. Currently, the rewards granted by defeating players and the handful of badges are not worth the time unless you value bragging rights.
   2. We would want to limit exploiting this system, but still allow players to farm it if they choose to do so. The goal would be to limit the reward rate to about the same as the reward rate for AE farming
2. Update the zone mechanics so that larger team sizes are encouraged to complete the objectives. Currently, players can easily solo the zone pillboxes by killing all of the turrets and clicking the middle glowie.
3. Add more PvE elements to objective so that all builds can meaningfully contribute to objective completion.
   1. As more waves of enemies are added to zone objectives, AoE and CC powers become increasingly valuable. Currently, there is little to no reason to use most AoE powers in PvP.
   2. Traditional ST DPS PvP builds would struggle to capture objectives without help from teammates.
4. Limit rewards that would be granted for the current PvP meta (straight up deathmatch gameplay).
   1. Adding a short cooldown to rewards granted for defeating an enemy player would limit multibox farming concerns

 

Solution Details:

There would be a lot of work that needs to be done to deliver this new experience for the zone. Here is a detailed breakdown of my ideas for each of those points.

• New PvP Currency — PvP Merits
  • A new currency that can be spent at PvP Merit Vendors that would be located in each of the zone bases.
  • Vendors will exchange the currency for special salvage and ATO rolls that are found in super packs (XP Boosters, Tailor Sessions, Special Inspirations, Temporary Powers, etc)

    • Special Salvage Roll	100 PvP Merits
      Temporary Power Roll	250 PvP Merits
      ATO Roll	1000 PvP Merits

       

• Updated Zone Mechanics
  • Update all turrets to be lvl 54 Elite Bosses (neutral turrets default to Arachnos NPCs)
  • Add Arachnos / Longbow ambushes to turrets that spawn at 75%, 50%, 25%, and 0% HP
    • Ambush defaults to lvl 54 and a team size of 8
  • Add a random signature Hero / Villain to the final ambush on the final turret for all pillboxes.
  • The zone is "won" by capturing 5 out of the 6 pillboxes
• Rewards

  • Defeating Enemy Player	10 PvP Merits
    Destroying a Turret + All Ambushes	25 PvP Merits
    Defeating Signature Hero / Villain	25 PvP Merits
    Capturing Pillbox	50 PvP Merits
    Winning the Zone	125 PvP Merits

  • Capturing a pillbox would result in 175 PvP Merits
    • Requires defeating a total of 16 waves of enemies, 4 turrets, and 1 signature Hero / Villain
    • Capturing 5 pillboxes and winning the zone would result in 1000 PvP merits, enough to purchase a random ATO roll

  • Rewards will be given to all players evenly on a team as long as a player on that team is interacting with the zone objectives

  • 60 second cooldown will be put on rewards granted by defeating an enemy player

  • Bonuses would be added to rewards based on hero/villain population, number of pillboxes captured, and other factors.
     

Final Thoughts:

I think this game has serious potential for very fun PvP content, and I think that is accomplished by combining traditional PvP gameplay with PvE elements so that anyone can contribute in some way. Toxicity would be unavoidable and there would obviously be some bad apples, but the goal would be for any player to be able to step in, participate in PvP, and get some rewards. On top of all the new mechanics and rewards, there would be the spirit of competition, the thrill of defeating your opponents and the frustration when they get the better of you.  

 

Rewards would obviously need to be dialed-in to make sure it isn't more rewarding than regular PvE content, but can still be farmed to get meaningful rewards if players want to spend their time doing PvP content.

 

Something to remember is this would all follow the current PvP zone rules of diminishing returns, Alpha-only for Incarnate powers, limited temporary powers, etc.

Any feedback would be much appreciated! Thanks for taking a look!

[Rudra]

21 minutes ago, Ston said:

Update all turrets to be lvl 54 Elite Bosses (neutral turrets default to Arachnos NPCs)

The regular turrets are level 54 bosses. If the captured pillbox turrets are all level 54 EBs, they will probably eat the signature characters sent to retake the pillbox as a challenge for the players.

[Ston]

The idea is there would only be 1 turret remaining on the pillbox when the AV/Hero spawns. And the AV/Hero would spawn as an ally of the turret to try to help "save" their pillbox.

 

Also, did a quick check:

Captured turrets are lvl 50 bosses.

Uncaptured turr ets are lvl 54 bosses.

 

 

 

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Ston said:

Also, did a quick check:

Captured turrets are lvl 50 bosses.

Uncaptured turr ets are lvl 54 bosses.

Yeah, the regular turrets are level 54 bosses. However, the turrets on captured pillboxes are not all level 50 bosses. Only 2 of them are. The other 2 are level 50 lieutenants. (Or minions? It's been a while.) If the captured pillboxes got their four turrets as all level 54 EBs, then at least some of the signature characters are probably going to die when they attack the pillbox to take it away.

 

Edit: Just did a re-read of the start of the quoted post. I'm not following. Are you saying you want the way the pillboxes work to spawn a signature character to help defend it?

Edited March 7 by Rudra

[Ston]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Yeah, the regular turrets are level 54 bosses. However, the turrets on captured pillboxes are not all level 50 bosses. Only 2 of them are. The other 2 are level 50 lieutenants. (Or minions? It's been a while.) If the captured pillboxes got their four turrets as all level 54 EBs, then at least some of the signature characters are probably going to die when they attack the pillbox to take it away.

 

Edit: Just did a re-read of the start of the quoted post. I'm not following. Are you saying you want the way the pillboxes work to spawn a signature character to help defend it?

 

Right. The idea is they'd be the final "reinforcement" sent to defend the pillbox.

Ex: Team of Heroes are capturing a neutral/villain pillbox. They defeat 3 turrets. When they start attacking the 4th, Lord Recluse spawns along with a wave of enemies in an effort to stop the pillbox from being captured by heroes.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

Right. The idea is they'd be the final "reinforcement" sent to defend the pillbox.

Ex: Team of Heroes are capturing a neutral/villain pillbox. They defeat 3 turrets. When they start attacking the 4th, Lord Recluse spawns along with a wave of enemies in an effort to stop the pillbox from being captured by heroes.

Well, that would definitely make it easier for me to get the Signature Heroes/Villains badges, so I guess no complaints here....

[Glacier Peak]

No feedback, but I'm supportive. 

[golstat2003]

Seems fine, but ai don’t pvp anymore. So might need some folks who currently use the zone to see if they have any issues with this.

[Monos King]

I like it. Maybe the PvP merits can also be converted to something else to make them even more appealing. Get enough and they can become aether, or something. Will the signatures sent to protect the pillbox be made necessary to take it over @Ston? Also:

 

@RudraWhile the Signature characters sent to the Pillbox might linger (assuming the answer to my above question is no), 4 Level 54 EBs are gonna get slayed by a 54 AV/Hero. So luckily there's no concern there, the gap between AV and EB is massive. Take it from someone whose spent ungodly hours making NPCs fight each other.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Monos King said:

@RudraWhile the Signature characters sent to the Pillbox might linger (assuming the answer to my above question is no), 4 Level 54 EBs are gonna get slayed by a 54 AV/Hero. So luckily there's no concern there, the gap between AV and EB is massive. Take it from someone whose spent ungodly hours making NPCs fight each other.

I'll take your word for it, but I'm viewing this from the lens of the number of times I've seen lower level lieutenants and minions stomp an EB. (Or the times I've watched a full fledged boss I'm escorting in a mission get separated from me, and when I get back to said boss, he was almost dead from just a single spawn on the map.)

 

Edit: In the end, it doesn't really matter to me since the listed AV would be there to save the last turret, not fight 4 new level 54 EB turrets. So that gives me 7 chances to get the AV(s) I need to get those badges. I can just take each pillbox down to 1 turret, check what AV responds, and either defeat said AV or move on to the next pillbox to try again.

Edited March 8 by Rudra

[Monos King]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'll take your word for it, but I'm viewing this from the lens of the number of times I've seen lower level lieutenants and minions stomp an EB. (Or the times I've watched a full fledged boss I'm escorting in a mission get separated from me, and when I get back to said boss, he was almost dead from just a single spawn on the map.)

For reference, 54 EBs have 5416 health, and aside from wonky cases like Olympian Guards and demoted AVs, have pretty standard powers.

54 AVs have 30 thousand health, hit just about twice as hard as EBs, and have exotic and powerful abilities that tend to also just hit harder base, on top of their roughly 2x dmg scale.

 

The tremendous stat difference plus the much better powers make it usually take at least 10 same level EBs to even bring a standard AV to half health. Signature's like Positron and Liberty that have actual toggles and T9s? It's a massacre, and it's lovely to behold. Bosses and EBs can be relative to each other but AVs and GMs are craaaazy.

Edited March 8 by Monos King

[MJABBAR88]

I like this

[beelzebub]

Huge yes! Thanks for taking the time to draw this up. 

[Greycat]

On 3/7/2024 at 2:54 PM, Ston said:

My proposed idea to address some of the mentioned problems is a large revamp to the lvl 50 PvP zone, Recluse's Victory. Currently, the zone is mostly populated by experienced PvP players who play against each other with the goal of securing kills. Players will largely ignore the zone objectives.

 

... really?

 

My experience has been the exact opposite, not just in RV but all the zones. An absolute *lack* of PVP, while people hop in to grab Shivans/Nukes/Heavies, badges, time-in-zone, etc.  I can think of *one* time in the last two years I've actually had anyone interested in PVP (in BB, of all things, and it was fun 'til someone hauled in a ringer.) I think I've found someone else in zone - any of them - that I didn't bring with me perhaps three times.

 

I think some of these changes suggested would negatively impact people going in there to ... do the objective, on a non PVP build or lower damage/survivability build. (Granted, you can grab heavies to help, but still.)

 

And honestly... the zone's already rewarding you (with the heavy at the end) for participating in zone mechanics. I really, *really* don't think we need a new currency.

 

Or... let me rephrase that.

 

If we're revamping *anything,* PVP-rewards-wise... start with Siren's Call. Because the rewards there *suck.* They weren't great on live - the temp stealth you get for doing the "hit all the call boxes" there is worth more. You fight, and fight, and ... get an SO or an inspiration? Blecch. And then any bounty (only zone that uses it) you acquire vanishes if you leave the zone - *including going into one of the zone missions to buff your side/debuff the other.*

 

Mind you, pre-broke-pvp-revamp on live, pre-"get powers +5 to your levels when exemped, even in zone," I think Siren's was my favourite zone. You had gotten a good suite of powers, but it wasn't a T9-off. It led to some of my favourite (solo and group) fights in the game.

 

Also, the PVE aspect there is just ... slow, boring and broken. THAT's a zone with no real reason to participate. Try to bait the sides into fighting and, several minutes later... 100 rep, if your side wins? Then rinse, repeat... boring. (Since, you know, nobody's there to fight most of the time.)

 

I'd revamp Siren's - the PVE, the PVP reward table for the zone, the works.

 

As part of *that,* I'd revamp bounty. You want another currency for PVP? Use bounty. It's the quicker picker upper. Plus it already exists - you just have to make it "sticky." Have it able to be turned in for some decent, low to mid tier rewards. Have it awarded for doing the zone-affecting missions (bomb/rescue/etc.) Have it have a *reasonable* accumulation - and the rewards should be worth you spending some of it *now* vs building it up. Obviously player kills, multiple player kills before takedown, etc. would give more than doing PVE - but both would still build up, so if nobody's around and you're working on (say) your Man in Black badge, getting some nukes in Warburg, whatever, you're still building it up.

 

Once *that's* high enough, if you keep it, then yeah... ATOs, PVP recipes, etc. Specific numbers? *shrug* no idea.

 

*That* can be kept and earned across the other zones as well. With the side effect that, if you're high enough bounty, a warning *will* go out to someone on the other side if they're there about a "high value target" or whatnot. And you being at (say) 10k bounty/pvp merits/whatever means *defeating* you (with some time limit) is worth more. (No, you don't lose your merits.)

 

Specific mechanics, farming curbs, etc. - well, others can discuss those, but that's where I'd start, honestly. I don't think RV needs the revamp, but SC does, and can lead to that merit revamp across all the PVP zones.

[America's Angel]

Looks good, Ston.

Edited March 12 by America's Angel

[macskull]

I said it on Discord, but unique enhancements that can only be obtained through PvP merits or bought/traded on the AH might be another good incentive to earn PvP merits - think things like universal debuff sets. People will, naturally, complain that they have to go into a PvP zone to get them, but... they don't have to if I can sell them my drops. I'd be more than happy to have someone else pay me to PvP.

[A.I.D.A.]

PvP in this game is bad, even by the standards of people who enjoy PvP. Lack of exclusive rewards is certainly not the reason people don't do much PvP in City of Heroes.

[America's Angel]

10 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

PvP in this game is bad, even by the standards of people who enjoy PvP. Lack of exclusive rewards is certainly not the reason people don't do much PvP in City of Heroes.

Nah it's good.

[Ukase]

I've said this somewhere before. I used to do PvP back on live. I was on an ice blaster, and if I was any good, it was because of the ice, not any kind of player skill. 

But, #3 on the OP's list - that part about builds being different in pvp vs pve...that's the problem as I see it. 

For those that don't farm, we spend (It used to be maybe 10X the time) about 30 hours, a little more for some, a little less for others getting to 50. 
We know our characters. We're probably aware that this power won't be ready to fire a second time until we fire this power. Attack chain stuff. 

Then, we get into pvp land...and suddenly, my tank which I labored to get to 90% resist in s/l/e/n is now barely over 50% resist. 
My defense which was 44% is now a lot less. 
The inspirations to boost these values do next to nothing, if they do anything at all. 
The only inspirations really worth pvping with are accuracies and break frees. 

If you want people (well, me) to pvp, you need to have my build work the same as it does in pve. I know what my character can do, but then I get to RV and suddenly I can't do what I used to do. It doesn't inspire me with confidence. And of course, lacking the skill without the best build doesn't help - but maybe remove travel suppression from pve, and we can talk again.