Blasts are too weak

[Hjarki]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

irradiate has a long base recharge time (20s) making it a prime candidate for proc, can put two -res procs in it and then others as required

Because almost no build has enough AE to create a 'rotation', recharge normally isn't relevant for AE powers. Indeed, proc'd out Irradiate would do a lot more damage if it had a 10s or 8s recharge. The proc chance on any individual attack would be lower, but you'd have more attacks over time.

 

Where recharge can matter on an AE attack is when the AF is so low it's used as a single target attack (which is not the case with Irradiate). PBAoE powers also have 3 damage procs, a purple proc and a -res proc, so it really doesn't matter all that much what procs their secondary effects grant.

[schrodingercat]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:58 PM, Diantane said:

When I made a defender I have to train the first attack, but after using it in DFB for a half down levels, Its's removed from the toolbar and I concentrate on my primaries.

 

I have a 50 pain/rad defender. Its best blast with 3-SO damage enhancements does 3 x 30 (big deal! ). The only defender I have that does any real damage is a kin/beam 50. All the other ones are very weak damage. A defender's blast are a secondary power and they don't crit.

 

I tried dual pistols on a Sentinel and it took me almost two minutes to kill anything during Frostfire. I can't imagine training DP on a defender - lol.

if you click powers->combat attributes-> expand the top most selection, you'll notice that each person in your group debuffs your damage. If you solo, your damage will be on par with corrupters, including scourge. Your trick is you do more buffs and debuffs than any other class in the game, which makes your team kill things quickly, safely, and most importantly, while you get experience.

 

Rad is a weaker damage set on all AT's, defender included. It shines at making things with very high defense easier to hit. Irradiate, snipe, cosmic burst, and your final attack are likely all you will really need, but pew-pewing with your tiny first or second attack will make the things you attack easier to hit for your entire team (and you). I use the weak rad initial blasts to soften the defense on a target and follow it up with a bigger, heavier hitting attack.

[CFIndustries]

Defenders blast well on small teams, not on large teams. Adapt playstyle accordingly. Sometimes ya blast, sometimes ya "defend" (debuff, etc.).

 

And some combos allow for pretty good damage even on a full team. When my Poison/Dark defender (Cute Little Stinker) goes Blackstar after a couple of seconds to let Venemous Gas to do it's thing…she hits hard. Her other attacks are "meh" except for Moonbeam but…no one has ever accused her of not contributing to damage. 🙂

 

Oh, and Venemous Gas is a great way for a little defender to take-apart Malta Gunslingers even with "meh" damage…sweet revenge.

 

 

Edited March 15 by CFIndustries

[Zect]

Sounds like you need to try a proper procbombing build. Say, /DP where every attack except your first can fit 6 damage procs. 
 

in general, fender dps comes from procs. Fenders should trade-out their superior buff mods, higher values on defensive toggles and greater slot-efficiency for more aggressive proccing. 

[Haijinx]

"Proper procbombing build" SMDH its come to that, has it?

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

"Proper procbombing build" SMDH its come to that, has it?

 

 

Well I might experiment in an alt build but in general it is not a trade off I'm willing to make on my Empaths.  Too much given up for me to due extra damage when the team could be doing so through my buffs.  I'm quite satisfied to let loose with a Spirit Drain boosted Atomic Blast which if it doesn't kill stuff outright leaves them all running their version of a hold animation while quickly getting picked off by Fortitude and Assault buffed teammates at minimal risk of return fire.

[Videra]

On 3/16/2024 at 9:59 AM, Haijinx said:

"Proper procbombing build" SMDH its come to that, has it?

 

 

Wow I forgot how clueless these forums are. It has been extremely standard practice to proc bomb defenders - they have Tanker Resistance and Defense modifiers, and most buffs don't need to be slotted very much. Defenders realistically do more damage than Corrs while solo when properly built, and in teams, the gap only really becomes noticeable on hard targets where Scourge isn't just overkill.

[Haijinx]

I get the concept.  It was the adjective and the resulting implications which dismayed me.  

 

Sorry to not be as clueless as advertised.  I'll try harder.

[Zect]

On 3/16/2024 at 9:59 PM, Haijinx said:

"Proper procbombing build" SMDH its come to that, has it?

 

You don't even say what these insinuations are and why they upset you, so I'll have to do it for you. You misinterpret my statement as saying that the proper way to play a defender is to procbomb. You likely don't procbomb (or don't do so extensively) and like most forumites you tend to be defensive when you perceive that your skill or the effectiveness of your builds/methods are called into question. You then make a passive-aggressive statement to express your displeasure and hopefully attract validation from others, while avoiding any concrete statements that could be disputed, to avoid a debate.

 

On to the subject: there are plenty of ways fenders can be effective without procbombing depending on build goals, target content and powersets (some sets are just not highly proccable but are valuable for other reasons, eg /sonic). Then you can also make an informed choice not to procbomb based on concept, personal reasons or playfeel even if it's not meta or optimal. Nobody should have an issue with that, as long as you don't go around claiming that it is. I am skeptical of people who harp too much on the "proper" way to play something anyway, and I think it is usually an appeal to authority used to mask their inability to defend their argument for why their playstyle is more optimal. Things like tankers saying the proper way to play one is to turtle, thus over-focusing on survivability to mask their poor gameplay and inefficient build design. Any tanker is easily made nigh indestructible, why do they have to devote the entire build to get to that point?

 

But in this case, the OP is complaining about personal damage. Not the debuff/2ndary effects of the blasts, but the amount of dps they deal. So if one feels that is lacking, then answer is to boost dps with procs (or I guess just play fire). In this context a proper procbombing build is just one that heavily exploits the mechanic to achieve high personal dps. Kin/DP. Join the dark side. @Diantane

Edited March 23 by Zect

[Haijinx]

Not really what I meant but good points.

[Haijinx]

Well except for me not proc bombing or forums mates defending me or whatever, that's just some kinda weird imagineering. 

[Haijinx]

The adjective, which I assumed was being used in the Brittish sense, is one that says to me that while they may have tried a Proc bombing build, they didn't try a well designed one. 

 

Proper in the American sense would be more like the "this is the correct way to build"

 

The implications are more relevant to game design.  It says the Homecoming effort to rebalance procs is too little, too late and that, like SS rage, this is the way things will remain.

 

Which suggests the two variations on the term Proper will merge in the future.  Evidenced by the post where I am called a clueless  forums dweller.  And of course the one where I need the forums cartel to come and save me.  And so SMDH.  

 

 

[skoryy]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The implications are more relevant to game design.  It says the Homecoming effort to rebalance procs is too little, too late and that, like SS rage, this is the way things will remain.

 

I'm sorry that proc-bombing is the way things are and will be.  Thoughts and prayers.

[Ringo]

On 3/14/2024 at 1:04 PM, Luminara said:

 

Nothing wrong with being an optimist.  Keep it up.  👍

Counterpoint:  Being an optimist will definitely lead to disaster

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Ringo said:

Counterpoint:  Being an optimist will definitely lead to disaster

It's darkest before dawn 😉

[tidge]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:24 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

I am so sick of the fact that absolutely no conversation can be had about damage without someone chiming in "HeRe's wHY yoU NeEd tO PrOC ouT yoUR ENtiRe bUIld." I'm really going to enjoy it when the Homecoming devs finally nerf the carp outta procs so that damage discussions can focus on damage and not "Proc proc proc proc, PROOC!!"

 

Not trying to pick on you Hjarki. It's not you, it's the game mechanics.

 

This is me, but substitute "softcap" for "proc".

 

Do I look forward to the day when the devs finally raise the base ToHit of all enemy critters do defense discussions can focus on alternate play styles and not "Softcap softcap softcap SOFTCAP!!"?... mmmm... get back to me on that one.

[Doomguide2005]

@tidge

I giggle because they have done this twice in a general sense.  First time well we call it the Incarnate cap.  Second time is a stepwise approach we call either Hardmode or Advanced Mode which involves other things getting buffed as well.  

[tidge]

48 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@tidge

I giggle because they have done this twice in a general sense.  First time well we call it the Incarnate cap.  Second time is a stepwise approach we call either Hardmode or Advanced Mode which involves other things getting buffed as well.  

 

I giggle for the same reason. I feel like there is a common set of reductionist thinking when it comes to both "procs" and "softcap"... and it seems weird that there can be such polarization about %damage... often declaring it a crime against game balance... yet there is so little vocalization about things like critter ToHit chances.

 

I think @PeregrineFalcon had it right: There can be a strong current of evangelization for %damage that I think a lot of the subtleties of how to use them is lost, and also has triggered a sort of iconoclastic reaction in some people patiently waiting for them to be destroyed. Personally, I think %damage is in a good place because it has the possibility (if used, %damage is a build choice, just like trying to get to a "45% defense" ) that makes the rewards-per-unit-time across ATs more even than it would be otherwise. The current game is in a surprisingly pleasant island of stability such that I see no reason to evacuate it for a variety of decades old notions of "how the game should be".

[MoonSheep]

19 hours ago, tidge said:

 

This is me, but substitute "softcap" for "proc".

 

Do I look forward to the day when the devs finally raise the base ToHit of all enemy critters do defense discussions can focus on alternate play styles and not "Softcap softcap softcap SOFTCAP!!"?... mmmm... get back to me on that one.

 

“hey guys, i have literally no idea how to get the best out of both this primary and secondary set i’ve chosen, along with having little experience with the archetype i’ve chosen.. anyways can someone make me a softcap build that completely bluntens all aspects of my powersets and AT?

 

oh, and which way am i meant to face when playing? thx”

[MoonSheep]

19 hours ago, tidge said:

 

This is me, but substitute "softcap" for "proc".

 

Do I look forward to the day when the devs finally raise the base ToHit of all enemy critters do defense discussions can focus on alternate play styles and not "Softcap softcap softcap SOFTCAP!!"?... mmmm... get back to me on that one.

 

also - this is why i like running my TFs on surprise enemies buffed mode 😛

[Zect]

The whole softcap (and now, resistance hardcap) meta has been incredibly limiting to the game. However, as funny as a global increase to critter tohit (and the resulting tears) would be, it still would not resolve the problem nor encourage any alternate playstyles. It would just result in more build resources being required to cap, or worse, some AT's (i.e. tankers) being able to cap while others would not.

 

The problem lies in the current tohit formula where hit% = base tohit + tohit mods - def mods (then modified by acc). This linear formula results in accelerating, not diminishing, returns which goes against every sensible game design principle. It makes breakpoints far too obvious, makes it much harder to balance dps vs player defenses, and results in potential wild swings in performance when playing close to the cap.

 

This is already a well-known problem in d20 where AC starts to become exponentially more valuable if you can get enough of it so that your enemies only hit you on a nat 20, except in d20, there are far more ways around AC than there are against def in coh. Even D&D online, which was originally based on 3.5e, soon recognized this issue and reworked AC to a nonlinear formula - though I'm no longer familiar with the details of their system. Coh is only of very few outliers I can think of.

 

My greatest hope is that at some point Homecoming team completely reworks the tohit formula into a nonlinear function with each additional point of defense further reducing hit chance with diminishing returns. The day I can stop saying "well, you only need X% defense..." with great certainty is one I look forward to eagerly.

Edited April 6 by Zect

[Tiresias]

Just like anything else, it depends on how you build you Defender. My Rad/Dark/Soul Defender is some of the most fun I have in this game, permanently running Accelerate Metabolism and Hasten to spam out abilities while flooring enemy to-hit, defense, damage, and resistances. If you consider that everyone on my team is benefiting from being permanently AM'ed while nuking down a target suffering from Enervating Field's -30% Resistance while I also run the best Leadership buffs in the game... Well I consider all of that extra damage to be MINE because it wouldn't be there without me.

 

I've always considered buff/debuff Defenders to be the way to go, because most people build in so much personal defense and sustain through IO sets. I believe my best group contribution is in uplifting team damage and accuracy while spoiling enemy defense and resistance. My blasts are there to provide secondary effects, and I tend to prefer Dark because I love all the additional conical control effects the set provides that allows me to help shape the battlefield.

 

If I wanted to stand in one place and blast out big numbers via a damage rotation, I'd be playing a Blaster.