A MM style class where your minions spawn confused

[gabrilend]

They just arrived, they don't know who to fight. But if there's no enemies remaining, they realize whose team they're supposed to be on and lose their confused status. In addition, if you take them to low hp and then target someone else, they'll join your team.

 

Call it... the "rebel" - give it summons of common enemy types who might have reason to be swayed to work with a hero/villain. Then we can roleplay as champions of a part of a particular faction, gang, category of monster, whatever. A faction that might decide to rebel from their masters and join (heroes or villains)?

 

Could add a new tutorial type that's only available for that class, one for each powerset. Then it could give a very simple and generic story about how the super-hero/villain came to be.

[CrusaderDroid]

I don't know what mechanical purpose this would serve. It looks inferior to pretty much every other choice since you don't have full control, and since confused enemies can deduct earned exp, there's a serious reason not to use this.

 

About the best you can do with this idea is a Mastermind whose powers recruit enemies permanently, but the coding behind that might break when switching zones, and you're at a huge disadvantage each time you get wiped, so the added possible versatility isn't really offset by the painful hospital visits and having to pick up and escort favored minions.

 

Roleplay and flavor are all well and good, but City of Heroes is still a game. If you can't nail the mechanics well enough to make it stand out as a proper set, it's likely to critically underperform even in roleplay and flavor.

[gabrilend]

Mechanically it'd act as a Mastermind style class that increases damage taken by allies. Sorta like a "reverse leadership" buff.

 

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... and since confused enemies can deduct earned exp, there's a serious reason not to use this.

 

That's not a reason at all - confusion deducts EXP in proportion to the amount of damage dealt by the confused unit. Therefore nothing is lost when you confuse an enemy, and in fact confusing an enemy will take one out of the fight for a moment which is valuable CC!

 

However with this idea you wouldn't necessarily be confusing foes, but instead your own minions. Who then might attack your allies until you "tame" them.

 

To balance this correctly, you need to find a mechanical way to differentiate them from Mastermind pets. Perhaps they are much stronger, but regenerate END slower, causing you to need to re-summon them during longer fights? Thus resetting the confuse status. Or perhaps something else that I haven't thought of because I'm not exactly the best at balancing a game for all different playstyles (that I don't play) -> though I'm pretty decent at balancing for *my* playstyle, I always must keep in mind that *my* playstyle is remarkably... strange, I find, when compared to the others of this game.

 

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... About the best you can do with this idea is a Mastermind whose powers recruit enemies permanently ...

 

hehe I disagree, that sounds like a nice idea but it's far from the best possible one. Heck I haven't even thought of the best one! It's out there, lying undisturbed, in the idea-space that none have yet plumbed and charted. Or perhaps not, perhaps it was dreamed up by a 12 year old playing this game with her eldest brother in 2009, and consequently forgotten moments or days later. What a tragedy, what a shame, that such beauty would go unmade! Alas...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Introducing the Ringmastermind!

summon tons of clowns that behave randomly

this is your circus

and these are your monkeys

(ringmastermind does not summon monkeys) 😂

[CrusaderDroid]

48 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

However with this idea you wouldn't necessarily be confusing foes, but instead your own minions. Who then might attack your allies until you "tame" them.

Regardless of anything else, this is a complete non-starter. The pain points of both inexperienced players and dedicated trolls using their powersets to wipe their team are an insurmountable obstacle. It's especially bad in a game where the only other possible trolling power is Teleport Target, and it is otherwise bereft of powers that can even injure your own team, let alone inconvenience them.

 

Just for fun though, let's assume that somehow the basic premise of "my pets can hurt my own team" isn't a dealbreaker.

 

It's still not a functional set.

 

1. You need at least two powers from your own primary - one to summon your wild pet, and one to tame the pet. Since you can only take one power at character creation, you don't really function at 1st level. Yes, you can Brawl your way to 2nd solo, but...
2. You're now stuck with a very heavy set that requires you to be spending time targeting your own pets just to get them to work properly. Most other Masterminds don't have to opt into their damage powers, so they can freely drop those for secondary or pool powers.
3. Since you're targeting your own pets to tame them, every time you summon them you stop being useful for however long it takes to wrangle them. Until they're tamed, at best you are only progressing the end of a fight by accident, and at worst you are damaging your own team.
4. Since you need to tame them every time, losing any pet puts you at a severe disadvantage when it comes to replacing them. Other Masterminds can quickly replenish their pets if they fall.
5. The logistical headache from the above points means that there's no good balance number for their stats. If they're normal MM tier, this is a waste of time, but if they're too strong, the confusion can take out an ally before you can wrangle them.
6. Taming has no good answers. Either you deal damage to your own pet, which makes them much more susceptible to getting taken out by the enemy, or you don't deal damage to your own pet, which means you added a second step to summoning a pet for no real gain.

This isn't going to work as an idea. The mechanics aren't fun and slow you down to the point of being bottom tier.

1 hour ago, gabrilend said:

Heck I haven't even thought of the best one! It's out there, lying undisturbed, in the idea-space that none have yet plumbed and charted. Or perhaps not, perhaps it was dreamed up by a 12 year old playing this game with her eldest brother in 2009, and consequently forgotten moments or days later. What a tragedy, what a shame, that such beauty would go unmade! Alas...

No, sometimes ideas just happen to be bad for a game because they contradict the design philosophy of that game, and there is no possible way to implement it. Not every game needs or can benefit from every possible idea or mechanic.

[gabrilend]

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You need at least two powers from your own primary - one to summon your wild pet, and one to tame the pet. Since you can only take one power at character creation, you don't really function at 1st level. Yes, you can Brawl your way to 2nd solo, but...

 

Hi, I think there's been a misunderstanding. You don't need an extra power to tame your pets, all you need to do is deal enough damage to them that they're "low hp" and then start targetting someone else. Could be implemented like this:

 

upon reaching 30% hp (or whatever feels right) they get a buff that does nothing but renew itself every time it's master deals damage to it. However it expires in 3-5 seconds, and if it does the pet then becomes friendly and non-confused.

 

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Since you're targeting your own pets to tame them, every time you summon them you stop being useful for however long it takes to wrangle them. Until they're tamed, at best you are only progressing the end of a fight by accident, and at worst you are damaging your own team.

 

This is just as much a problem with Mastermind, and in fact they have training powers which increase the amount of time spent "not contributing to the fight" - however, Masterminds are still useful, even if they don't have 100% uptime.

 

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This isn't going to work as an idea. The mechanics aren't fun and slow you down to the point of being bottom tier.

 

Ah, alas, the critical strike. Well if the idea is that bad then it shouldn't be implemented. Not all ideas are good, and it's up to the discussion to decide whether or not they hold merit. If people like them, they could be prototyped by the devs, who then test it out and decide "yeah this sucks" or "wow this is actually kinda fun", at which point they'd ask the community "hey do you want us to add this thing? We tried it and it's actually pretty fun" and then the community says "NO DON'T CHANGE OUR GAME" and ah, well, save it for the sequel I guess.

[Rudra]

I personally have no idea why anyone would make a mastermind character with no control over their henchmen. I mean, that is what makes masterminds... masterminds. They have control over large groups of followers and resources. So calling in followers that immediately start attacking their boss and their boss' allies who are already embroiled in a fight makes no sense.

 

What you are proposing is interesting as a concept, but most definitely is not a mastermind.

[gabrilend]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I personally have no idea why anyone would make a mastermind character with no control over their henchmen. I mean, that is what makes masterminds... masterminds. They have control over large groups of followers and resources. So calling in followers that immediately start attacking their boss and their boss' allies who are already embroiled in a fight makes no sense.

 

What you are proposing is interesting as a concept, but most definitely is not a mastermind.

 

Hence why I suggested a new archetype that is not a Mastermind, but uses Mastermind style minions. : )

[Rudra]

Just now, gabrilend said:

 

Hence why I suggested a new archetype that is not a Mastermind, but uses Mastermind style minions. : )

I missed that part. Apologies. What you are describing is a trope of summoners, where they summon creatures to do their bidding, but must force the summoned beings into submission to get them to serve. However, a "typical" summoner can call upon a wide variety of creatures to do their bidding. So I'm not sure how it would work. And if you retain the force into submission part, then you can fail at it, which means you just summoned more enemies to you. So there is that little problem as well.

[gabrilend]

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I missed that part. Apologies. What you are describing is a trope of summoners, where they summon creatures to do their bidding, but must force the summoned beings into submission to get them to serve. However, a "typical" summoner can call upon a wide variety of creatures to do their bidding. So I'm not sure how it would work. And if you retain the force into submission part, then you can fail at it, which means you just summoned more enemies to you. So there is that little problem as well.

 

Yes exactly! You get it. 🥰

[CrusaderDroid]

I mean, if you've got like a list of 9 powers for a powerset, I'd love to see it. Don't need exact numbers or anything, just brief two or three sentence summaries on what things do.

 

When it's this nebulous "behold, A THING!" kind of post, it's much harder to engage. You've clearly got some ideas for some of those powers, so seeing the total set would be interesting and help head off some of the confusing bits like "do you need to shoot your own pets or just one click tame" that I got tripped up on.

[Lockely]

31 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

Hi, I think there's been a misunderstanding. You don't need an extra power to tame your pets, all you need to do is deal enough damage to them that they're "low hp" and then start targetting someone else. Could be implemented like this:

 

upon reaching 30% hp (or whatever feels right) they get a buff that does nothing but renew itself every time it's master deals damage to it. However it expires in 3-5 seconds, and if it does the pet then becomes friendly and non-confused.

 

What is there to stop someone from summoning a series of minions and then simply-- not beating them into submission? It's a set that basically put up unlimited ability to troll your team.

[gabrilend]

7 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

I mean, if you've got like a list of 9 powers for a powerset, I'd love to see it. Don't need exact numbers or anything, just brief two or three sentence summaries on what things do.

 

When it's this nebulous "behold, A THING!" kind of post, it's much harder to engage. You've clearly got some ideas for some of those powers, so seeing the total set would be interesting and help head off some of the confusing bits like "do you need to shoot your own pets or just one click tame" that I got tripped up on.

 

Good point! I don't have specific powerset ideas because the theming depends on which type of monsters you'd like. Though I am partial to the Devouring Earth and Coralax Hybrid factions. If you want it to fit thematically, make them entities that could theoretically spawn anywhere - there's no reason a Hellion would suddenly show up in the hideout of a bunch of Skulls, but maybe that office desk turns into a treant when animated with powerful magic or scientific technology.

 

Here's a skeletal structure of what the archetype would look like. This is a first draft:

 

1 -> light melee

2 -> heavy melee

3 -> summon 1 minion

4 -> utility

5 -> summon 2 minions

6 -> crowd control

7 -> short-range aura

8 -> summon 3 minions

9 -> unique power

 

This class would be melee both to contrast with the mastermind, but also to encourage the placement of the player character next to the minions they are attempting to subdue. This will provide a subtle context clue to other players that they shouldn't kill that particular minion. There are no AoE powers, to emphasis the role of the player in focusing down their minions one by one.

 

The summons would be reversed in quantity when compared to Masterminds, such that the tier 2 power summons 1 minion, the tier 5 power summons 2, and the tier 8 power summons 3 minions. This is to ensure the Mastermind can address their new "foes" as competently as possible - a low level hero is likely to possess fewer attacks which could be used against multiple targets, while a higher level one is likely to have more tools in their toolbox for it. The power-per-quantity value should remain the same as Masterminds.

 

You'll notice there are no training powers, and that's by design. The focus is a bit less on the pets, and more on the positioning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but confused targets will attack the nearest target, whether or not it's friend or foe, yes? If so, then the "Rebel" would be encouraged to place their minions on the opposite side of the fight, "behind enemy lines", if you will, such that their minions will either attack the Rebel, or the backside of the enemy units.

 

For secondary powersets, I think the best option would probably be a defensive set (tuned like a Stalker, with the abilities of a Scrapper secondary). This would give the Rebel a bit of survivability when in tough situations. However this does mean the defensive design space gets a bit more crowded, and with the Sentinel (love that class) there's already been an archetype added with defensive powers. In addition, having a more "personal" secondary powerset when compared to the Mastermind will help differentiate them more.

[gabrilend]

13 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

What is there to stop someone from summoning a series of minions and then simply-- not beating them into submission? It's a set that basically put up unlimited ability to troll your team.

 

True - maybe the summon powers have a short range, so their first target is likely to be the Rebel? Or perhaps these summoned foes run away if nobody attacks them for ~5-10 seconds, because "Hey I just got here and I don't know what this is about but there's a lot of fighting going on so I'm gonna run away"

[Lockely]

1 minute ago, gabrilend said:

 

True - maybe the summon powers have a short range, so their first target is likely to be the Rebel? Or perhaps these summoned foes run away if nobody attacks them for ~5-10 seconds, because "Hey I just got here and I don't know what this is about but there's a lot of fighting going on so I'm gonna run away"

 

Their *only* target has to be the player or other enemies for this to work. A player set *cannot* be the active factor in killing another player outside of PvP zones.

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

What is there to stop someone from summoning a series of minions and then simply-- not beating them into submission? It's a set that basically put up unlimited ability to troll your team.

Make the summoned beings worth exactly 0 xp/inf' like BP summoned zombies are.

 

2 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

Their *only* target has to be the player or other enemies for this to work. A player set *cannot* be the active factor in killing another player outside of PvP zones.

This and the lack of ability to keep your pets from just killing you for starting out as enemies (confused summons) are my main problems with the proposal.

[gabrilend]

Just now, Lockely said:

 

Their *only* target has to be the player or other enemies for this to work. A player set *cannot* be the active factor in killing another player outside of PvP zones.

 

If that is a requirement, then perhaps it could work with the design. I see no reason why not, aside from the added technical complexity beyond just throwing a "confused" state on them and calling it a day. If they can program that kind of functionality then it could work, though I'm picturing a scenario where a Rebel summons some minions and dashes away, leaving them to fight the enemies alone with no chance of getting hurt themselves.

 

... though now that I think about it, maybe that's not such a bad thing. If the EXP is proportionally reduced compared to the amount of damage they deal, then they won't be contributing any rewards to the fight if the Rebel doesn't stick around to subdue them.

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

11 minutes ago, Lockely said:

 

Their *only* target has to be the player or other enemies for this to work. A player set *cannot* be the active factor in killing another player outside of PvP zones.

 

If that is a requirement, then perhaps it could work with the design. I see no reason why not, aside from the added technical complexity beyond just throwing a "confused" state on them and calling it a day. If they can program that kind of functionality then it could work, though I'm picturing a scenario where a Rebel summons some minions and dashes away, leaving them to fight the enemies alone with no chance of getting hurt themselves.

The thing @Lockely is trying to explain, is that if a player can summon hostile units that rely on the player to then use a tame ability that only works for them on their summoned units, then someone could take their level 50 Rebel or whatever the AT was called, stand in Atlas Park, and summon a horde of level 48+ enemies to obliterate the other characters in the area.

[gabrilend]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The thing @Lockely is trying to explain, is that if a player can summon hostile units that rely on the player to then use a tame ability that only works for them on their summoned units, then someone could take their level 50 Rebel or whatever the AT was called, stand in Atlas Park, and summon a horde of level 48+ enemies to obliterate the other characters in the area.

 

That makes sense to me! Such a scenario should be made impossible. The suggested idea was to make it so the Rebel's minions can only target enemy units and the player character, however another possible design would be that they can only target members of the player's team. That way if someone's being a goofball and summoning a bunch of units right next to the low-health allied characters, the team can say "hey don't do that" or even "we don't want to play with you anymore" which honestly cuts pretty deep. They'd learn, eventually, not to step on other people's toes, I think.

 

... though I'm not sure if something like that is technically feasible, as we don't have any examples of powers that only target teammates (or do we?).

[megaericzero]

The idea sounds completely counterintuitive for multiple reasons.

 

Trolling/griefing was already addressed.

 

Henchmen are already notorious for dying, especially at higher levels; now they're not even fighting for you until they are low on HP.

 

Your summon powers mean you have less attacks (and your main attacks are melee, given the provided template) making it even harder to damage your own henchmen.

 

If you lose even a couple of henchmen in combat, your options are retreat or actively give the enemy reinforcements when you're already in a pinch.

 

Add on top of that the fact that the player themself has to actively be their own hindrance in all of this - they have to summon things that try to kill them, they have to bring their own henchmen to low HP - and the whole thing reads as just "Masterminds but we punish you for playing the game."

[Lunar Ronin]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The thing @Lockely is trying to explain, is that if a player can summon hostile units that rely on the player to then use a tame ability that only works for them on their summoned units, then someone could take their level 50 Rebel or whatever the AT was called, stand in Atlas Park, and summon a horde of level 48+ enemies to obliterate the other characters in the area.

 

... Now I want this. .

[Player2]

This seems like a bad idea all around.

 

Mechanically:  confused units may either damage enemies and hurt team XP or allies and needing to devote extra buffing/healing to protect against an ally's attack.  This seems like the equivalent of asking for a new blaster that can deal even more damage with their AOE attacks at the cost of them also affecting allies.  The AT can be called Idjit and its inherent power is called Friendly Fire.

 

Thematically:  you summon pet/minions as helpers to deal with hostile threats... and it's bad enough that you then have to buff them with upgrade powers and occasional secondary boosts in the middle of combat after you lose a number of your initially summoned pets.  What hero or villain is going to be insane enough to think, "Things are grim, I'd better summon more things that might also turn on and attack me until I tame them!"??

 

Dev. Labor:  what exactly is the benefit of this proposed AT and why would anyone want the precious resource of time spent by developers used to work on this over other content?  What exactly is the benefit of this AT that would make it worth investing time trying to not only make this idea work despite it being actively detrimental to play, but then also to add unique content in the form of exclusive tutorials for each power set.

 

Potential for Abuse:  trolling/griefing, as pointed out above.  Even if you don't see it... or even if you think there are ways to defeat it... there will be someone who finds a way.

 

So I have to say hard pass on this one, and I can only hope everyone else agrees.

[Luminara]

So... this is an archetype which summons... henches which con as enemies... and attack you instead of what you're fighting... unless you whup their asses and make them obey...

 

OH MY GOD, IT'S THE DRAMA QUEEN ARCHETYPE!

[gabrilend]

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So... this is an archetype which summons... henches which con as enemies... and attack you instead of what you're fighting... unless you whup their asses and make them obey...

 

OH MY GOD, IT'S THE DRAMA QUEEN ARCHETYPE!

 

hehe I mostly play villains, if you couldn't tell xD xD

 

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This seems like a bad idea all around.

...

So I have to say hard pass on this one, and I can only hope everyone else agrees.

 

The wind does seem to be blowing in that direction, so I think you have nothing to fear. There are quite a few challenges to the implementation of this archetype, and perhaps they are insurmountable. Alas. Thank you for discussing it everyone, unless anyone has any positive solutions to the presented issues I don't think there's much hope for the idea as suggested. Oh well : )

[Monos King]

I have to agree with all of the criticisms here. They're pretty much objectively correct. 

 

But what if we added it anyway? +1 OP shine on you crazy diamond