Rework bugged Brute's Fury ATO to also provide +Rech

[Shin Magmus]

     Yes, the ATO is currently *very* bugged and I already made a thread about it: 

 

Here are the videos as well because I know you want all the information in one place:

 

 

 

     The Brute's Fury proc, if it worked correctly, only grants 7 Fury.  7 Fury is only up to 14% dmg, which rapidly degrades, and is subject to the Fury Cap of 100 even before it runs into the damage cap.  By contrast, Dominators get a 14.195% dmg bonus (for 10.25s) proc which does not decay, has no internal limit like the Fury bar, and stacks up to 3 times.

 

     Dominators also have higher dmg scales and no built-in Fury, and we're about to do some math assuming exactly 100% dmg enhanced in powers (Endgame builds with Musculature or Intuition Alphas do often exceed this, making the effects of dmg buffs *even lower* than I'm showing here).  This +14.195% dmg is an effective boost of +~7% for Dominator dmg output in many cases when it goes off... whereas the Brute's Fury +14% dmg would only amount to an effective boost of +~3% for Brute dmg output in statistically common conditions... and I rounded up here, since average damage bonus at 80 Fury is 160% (260% including enhancements).

 

     That's how much worse the Brute's Fury ATO would be if it worked correctly: and it doesn't because it is bugged currently.  Against +3s, the 7 Fury is presumably getting Purple Patched down to 4.55 Fury, meaning that the ATO only boosts your current dmg output by +~1.95% in statistically common conditions.  This ATO is a joke!  Reminder that the Scrapper Crit Strikes ATO boosts their averaged damage output by literally 50% (but only for 2-3 attacks) every single time it goes off, in all contexts.  This is not fair, and I've unslotted the Brute's Fury ATO proc from my builds. 

 

    I don't care if Brutes "feel fine" to you, and I don't care if the devs are using AE Farms existing as an excuse to avoid ever buffing Brutes.  Those are both bad reasons and should not be brought to the table in this discussion.  Brutes *do* need buffs to be relevant in the game outside of AE, and minmaxxers can already prove that Brutes aren't even beating Tankers in AE anyways.  Buff the Brute's Fury ATO.  Fix the bug, and make the Superior proc grant +20% Recharge for 10.25s (+10% Recharge for the regular version).  This fits with the theme of Brutes attacking unrelentingly and thematically matches their other ATO proc making them less prone to exhaustion in a long fight. 

Edited April 18 by ShinMagmus
Even more typos

[CrusaderDroid]

Honestly sounds fine to me. I'd be okay if Fury in general was granting +recharge by itself even without the proc. I think the shift over to more frequent attacks is a good way to establish a unique identity for Brutes so they're not trapped between Scrapper and Tanker as badly as they are now.

20 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

  I don't care if Brutes "feel fine" to you, and I don't care if the devs are using AE Farms existing as an excuse to avoid ever buffing Brutes.  Those are both bad reasons and should not be brought to the table in this discussion.

To follow up on why these are bad reasons: Lots of things can "feel fine" if you either don't run or don't care about certain content. That doesn't make problems go away, and if it "feels fine", then it's going to feel better after the change, most likely. In this case: even if the proc "feels fine", you're still going to appreciate that global recharge bonus way more.

 

Meanwhile, farming is an issue that goes well beyond one specific archetype doing its thing. Kneecapping archetypes and powersets over farming gets into a dangerous cycle where the best farmer is in danger of having their viability for other content nerfed, and inevitably there will always be a new best farmer after the first one is nerfed out of relevance. There are much better solutions available to address farming than targeted nerfs that catch normal play as collateral damage - assuming we can even agree AE farming is bad.

[Shin Magmus]

Thank you for the well-reasoned input.  I'm just passionate about this issue; I'm a little bit miffed that one AT (Brute) has an ATO that is approximately 25x worse than the AT with the most similar stats/scalars and powersets/power order (Scrapper).

Edited April 18 by ShinMagmus
Typo

[Videra]

Signed! I'm a brute enjoyer on a thematic level, clip it and fucking ship it. This should be in a damn hotfix.

[lemming]

I enjoy playing Brutes even with their ATO being crap, but it would be nice to have it mean something.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

I wonder if the Devs have any plans to rework some of the more problematic sets

because this ATO isn't the only case

not gonna name names or derail the thread

just wondering if an IO pass is on their radar in general

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

To follow up on why these are bad reasons: Lots of things can "feel fine" if you either don't run or don't care about certain content. That doesn't make problems go away, and if it "feels fine", then it's going to feel better after the change, most likely. In this case: even if the proc "feels fine", you're still going to appreciate that global recharge bonus way more.

I would still rather not. If players want the Brute ATO improved, I'm not going to complain. However, I will ask that +recharge not be what it goes to. That will throw my END management off as suddenly my attacks are faster and burning through END faster requiring me to go back and reconfigure my END management to keep it under control.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, ShinMagmus said:

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

A chain is developed from the powers you have available based on how quickly they become available. So that chain can change as your powers become available more quickly as you exploit your available powers to accomplish your goals.

Nope, still wrong. 

If the comment is wrong, then prove it, because your response does not. A chain is very much developed the way I said. A chain can be changed as power availability changes, like I said. And I already conceded that you were correct about me being able to simply not change my chain and so go unaffected. So your continued argument against that makes no sense. I can not want more +recharge fit into everything just as much as you can want more +recharge fit into everything. That makes it a question of preferences. You would prefer more +recharge, I would prefer more variety in improvements.

 

Edit: Example: a character has attacks 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. The character runs a chain going 1, 5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 3, 2, 4, 1, 5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 3, 2, 4  and so on. Now those powers become available more frequently. So the player decides to change the chain to just be 1, 5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 5, 3, 2, 4. Power 5 is used more frequently in the chain, so the chain has changed. (Edit again: To remove power 8 since I forgot to put it in the example sequences.)

Edited April 18 by Rudra

[CrusaderDroid]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As power recharge rates change, but their END consumption when used does not, that changes how much END you use as part of your chain.

I'm not exactly an expert in build optimization, but 20% recharge time probably wouldn't push a build over from "END equilibrium" to "oops no END". The other Brute ATO has an endurance discount proc anyways, so it evens that out enough I think.

 

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Make the +Fury component factor better for the Brute than it currently does.

I'm not sure this would be appropriate as part of a proc. Even then, I'm personally of the opinion that +recharge is the best avenue for Brutes to make them unique from the critty Scrappers and the tougher+bigger AoEs Tankers.

 

26 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Make it add a growing mez resistance component.

Given the protection powers on a lot of sets as well as the mez resistance in many IO sets, this isn't the big win we'd want it to be.

 

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Make it add to the character's movement speed.

Kinetics can already slam a big enough movement speed boost on you on top of accidentally making Fury useless to you. I'm not sure this would be useful for anything other than unoptimized runs or mono-Brute teams (but I repeat myself). The issue was never unoptimized/low level content, where Brutes are great in a budget, but how Brutes hit a ceiling due to mechanical limitations and stat caps that keeps them from thriving.

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Make it add to S/L resist or something.

I'm not even good at this game. I'm pretty sure my build on my Battle Axe/Shield Defense is missing something and I need to respec and heavily consider my choices. I've still got S/L maxed anyways. This isn't a valuable stat to be increasing, and it's very easy to max just by slotting full sets and using Tough.

 

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Make it add to the character's ToHit or ACC.

Technically would be useful. +recharge has a more immediate effect, though, and making Fury boost ToHit would most likely get you a case where you drop Acc for Recharge on stuff you weren't using for procs, bringing us full circle.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, CrusaderDroid said:

I'm not exactly an expert in build optimization, but 20% recharge time probably wouldn't push a build over from "END equilibrium" to "oops no END". The other Brute ATO has an endurance discount proc anyways, so it evens that out enough I think.

 

I'm not sure this would be appropriate as part of a proc. Even then, I'm personally of the opinion that +recharge is the best avenue for Brutes to make them unique from the critty Scrappers and the tougher+bigger AoEs Tankers.

 

Given the protection powers on a lot of sets as well as the mez resistance in many IO sets, this isn't the big win we'd want it to be.

 

Kinetics can already slam a big enough movement speed boost on you on top of accidentally making Fury useless to you. I'm not sure this would be useful for anything other than unoptimized runs or mono-Brute teams (but I repeat myself). The issue was never unoptimized/low level content, where Brutes are great in a budget, but how Brutes hit a ceiling due to mechanical limitations and stat caps that keeps them from thriving.

I'm not even good at this game. I'm pretty sure my build on my Battle Axe/Shield Defense is missing something and I need to respec and heavily consider my choices. I've still got S/L maxed anyways. This isn't a valuable stat to be increasing, and it's very easy to max just by slotting full sets and using Tough.

 

Technically would be useful. +recharge has a more immediate effect, though, and making Fury boost ToHit would most likely get you a case where you drop Acc for Recharge on stuff you weren't using for procs, bringing us full circle.

I see your points, but those were just thrown out there to show there are other options beyond yet more +recharge. If the devs decide to improve Brute's ATOs and they go the +recharge route, then at least Brutes finally got some love. It wouldn't be my preferred solution, but at least they finally got some.

[CrusaderDroid]

Yeah, there's other options. They're just appreciably weaker is the thing. More importantly, none of them really help push Brute into a unique niche in a game with four heavily overlapping melee archetypes. +recharge at least helps build the idea that Brute is less a skilled attacker and more a fast attacker that swings a lot to build up Fury, and having that focus in place means a better spot for further work on Brute to distinguish it.

[Vanden]

What if it was just made into a damage proc? Both of the ranged damage-primary classes have a damage proc ATO, but none of the melee damage ATs do. Just keep it simple, you know?

[CrusaderDroid]

36 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What if it was just made into a damage proc? Both of the ranged damage-primary classes have a damage proc ATO, but none of the melee damage ATs do. Just keep it simple, you know?

It could. It would be better than live.

 

I personally don't like it though. Like you said, two other archetypes already have a damage proc ATO. This wouldn't really help define Brute, especially when we can slot in other procs just fine. You'd have to sell why this is better than +recharge, which is a space none of the other archetypes are focusing on.

[FupDup]

Maybe instead of a large upfront bonus, make it like the other Brute ATO (the regen/end discount one) where the recharge bonus can stack multiple times but is a bit smaller per stack? I think that fits the "building power over time" motif a bit more accurately than a single big number. 

Edited April 18 by FupDup

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

What if it was just made into a damage proc? Both of the ranged damage-primary classes have a damage proc ATO, but none of the melee damage ATs do. Just keep it simple, you know?

That's *fine*, but also boring.  It's possible to give Brutes some sort of identity, which they sorely lack in the current version of the game.  A Dmg proc is always going to be good though, and it's certainly an upgrade from a bugged and weak +dmg buff proc on self.  I think Recharge will be something that entices more players to play Brutes though.

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm actually in favor of improving the ATO, so I'm not actually saying "It feels fine to me". What I am saying? Is that if there is to be a change to the proc, I would rather almost anything other than yet more +recharge.

What would you suggest instead of +Recharge hun? Personally I don't play brutes so this is coming from an outside perspective, so excuse any naïve suggestions I make 😄 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

What would you suggest instead of +Recharge hun? Personally I don't play brutes so this is coming from an outside perspective, so excuse any naïve suggestions I make 😄 

I don't know. Maybe a global chance for fear, so Brutes are scarier to enemies than other ATs. Maybe a ToHit or ACC debuff, again because enemies are more scared of the Brute than other ATs. (I think the fear component would work better on Brutes than it does on Soldiers of Arachnos at least.) Hells, maybe a proc that for that power lets the Brute hit a higher damage cap than the Brute currently can. I'm just tired of +recharge being the go to any time someone thinks something needs to be buffed.

 

Edited April 18 by Rudra
Edited to change "it" to "the fear component".

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 hours ago, CrusaderDroid said:

I'd be okay if Fury in general was granting +recharge by itself even without the proc.

 

This has been suggested before by others (and me), and there's usually detractors.

 

But it's hard to argue against it both on the basis of class identity and bringing Brutes into back into line between Scrappers and Tankers. 

 

In fact, contrary to the aforementioned point about "the always Hasten crowd," Brutes having a +Recharge generating ATO proc plus Fury builds Recharge would be a phenomenal way to actually have builds that no longer require Hasten for optimal performance. Drop Speed pool for something else!

[Laucianna]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I don't know. Maybe a global chance for fear, so Brutes are scarier to enemies than other ATs. Maybe a ToHit or ACC debuff, again because enemies are more scared of the Brute than other ATs. (I think the fear component would work better on Brutes than it does on Soldiers of Arachnos at least.) Hells, maybe a proc that for that power lets the Brute hit a higher damage cap than the Brute currently can. I'm just tired of +recharge being the go to any time someone thinks something needs to be buffed.

 

Theme wise I understand, but to me it would take them more to control ways having a fear and not solve the damage issue 😞

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

[ThatGuyCDude]

My own Brute is a Savage Melee that uses no spenders so that Blood Frenzy grants the highest recharge possible, so I can see the appeal in a bonus to recharge.  Still... Brutes are supposed to fill the tank role and they're sometimes MUCH squishier than Tankers, so some kind of crowd control ATO proc like Fear or Knockdown could be called for, or even a +Max HP proc.  It's an area that none of the other archetype enhancements have explored yet.  If it applies rolls to all the Primary powers when slotted, even better to tell Brutes apart from Tankers in a team.

The Fury boost is supposed to be about damage, though.  Hmm....  Some sort of debuff proc that drops the target's Defense or Resistance (or both) could work too, again either as a high probability on the slotted power or a low roll on all powers once slotted.  I suppose that's a bit like the removed Tanker bruising effect, but is that really so terrible a mechanic?

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Laucianna said:

Theme wise I understand, but to me it would take them more to control ways having a fear and not solve the damage issue 😞

Good luck with the damage. I mean, I get the current devs are not the same dev team as back on Live, so maybe they will be on board with addressing it in a manner that isn't a sidegrade middle finger that they call a buff like the Live devs did. (Yeah, I'm still upset about that. Sorry.) At least addressing it from that angle isn't just another more +recharge request.

 

And I understand @CrusaderDroid's goal of getting a unique ID for Brutes rather than hybrid Scrapper-Tanker that isn't either. Maybe tweaking Brute's identity as an AT will help them break out from where they are. And yes, I understand @CrusaderDroid's point about how +recharge can actually do that. I just disagree that +recharge is the only or even the best way to do so. What is the best way? I don't know. I've given my ideas on possible options, even leaving several examples open-ended so others can hopefully come up with better variations or ideas for it, but to say that is unpopular is an understatement. I don't understand the +recharge fixation. Yes, a Brute can be a fast attacker rather than a skilled one, but so can a Scrapper. So where do we go from here?

 

Edited April 18 by Rudra
Edited to correct "attacked" to "attacker".

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ultimately I believe that the best way for the developers to address this would be to fix Fury so that, at its peak, the Brute's damage output is similar to a Scrapper's of the same offensive powerset. It should also be difficult to maintain it at that peak if you're not in the thick of it. I don't have any idea how you'd do that. A combination of incoming and outgoing damage I guess. I don't know. Someone pick up the red phone and see if Arcanaville is still answers.

 

Then have the Brute ATO buff Regen and Endurance Recovery by the Fury value so that, at the peak, the Brute's Regen and End Recovery are noticeable. So not only would a Brute do roughly Scrapper damage, they'd be nearly unkillable as long as they're constantly fighting.

 

Hulk smash indeed.

[Laucianna]

15 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ultimately I believe that the best way for the developers to address this would be to fix Fury so that, at its peak, the Brute's damage output is similar to a Scrapper's of the same offensive powerset. It should also be difficult to maintain it at that peak if you're not in the thick of it. I don't have any idea how you'd do that. A combination of incoming and outgoing damage I guess. I don't know. Someone pick up the red phone and see if Arcanaville is still answers.

 

Then have the Brute ATO buff Regen and Endurance Recovery by the Fury value so that, at the peak, the Brute's Regen and End Recovery are noticeable. So not only would a Brute do roughly Scrapper damage, they'd be nearly unkillable as long as they're constantly fighting.

 

Hulk smash indeed.

At that point why would you play a Scrapper over a brute? If they do the same damage (once someone builds up an easy to build bar judging by the videos) but one is a lot tankier that would just swap the issue from brute onto scrapper 🙂 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just now, Laucianna said:

At that point why would you play a Scrapper over a brute? If they do the same damage (once someone builds up an easy to build bar judging by the videos) but one is a lot tankier that would just swap the issue from brute onto scrapper 🙂 

My idea is that Brutes would be tougher than a Scrapper but, only with the ATO, and you would have to really work at keeping them at that level. It would require some thought and timing. And, if you IO'd your Brute out with really high defenses then it would actually work against you because attacks that miss wouldn't contribute to maintaining Fury.

 

Scrappers on the other hand wouldn't require as much work to play. It would be easier to maintain this level of damage output, but you wouldn't be as durable. It seems to me that that was the original intent of Brutes to begin with.

 

Now, I flat out admit that I don't know how you'd do the math to balance this out, which is why I made the Arcanaville remark.