Are Defenders Worth It?

[WuTang]

Ran a +4/8 ITF with 5 Defenders once, I was on my best geared Brute, and I felt utterly useless. It was the smoothest run I'd ever been on. It felt more like a carry for me though. If you are on a team and mashing buttons, then you are contributing, but if you are the 35 on the ITF, maybe not so much.

[tribunaltd]

In my team of 3 at level 30, if my Defender dies I can tell immediately. I run a Tanker and Blaster with it. I had a mission to kill a boss but it didn't tell me to clear the map first. I had easily 30 mobs or more rush me from white to orange. I was scrambling trying to get to a spot I liked and was maintaining...chaotically, but for a good time and my Tanker was absorbing major damage. Apparently an orange was hitting my Defender without me noticing and died after I had a handful down. My Blaster immediately started dipping in health and it took all my pops to survive. By the end, Blaster was dead too and my Tanker had nothing left.

 

I know that isn't the pro-level group you were with but my Force Defender keeps me alive in the "Oh shizz!" moments, and collateral damage to my non-meat shields is almost non-existent most of the time so far. I will say though that in normal missions while just grinding, the Defender is mainly there for extra damage/debuffs...which are starting to make a big impact. I'm assuming when I get to higher levels those debuffs are going to really play a role.

[Doomguide2005]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt the most potent teams I've been on have been predominantly Defenders 

[One IV All]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Beyond a shadow of a doubt the most potent teams I've been on have been predominantly Defenders 

I agree. What are some of your favorite Defender primaries to have on your team?

[tidge]

I get mixed results from my Defenders. The best ones are those that offer both solid team buffs and impressive enemy debuffs. FWIW: In this era of CoX don't find enemy -Defense to be the end-all-be-all that it was in the early days of Live. A well-built, well-played Defender can make a huge impact on team performance.

 

I have several Defenders I really like; my least favorite Defender uses the Poison primary. It is IMO too clumsy to use to assist teammates, and too single-target oriented to contribute much except against single hard-targets. It really feels like it is from a completely different era of the game. I like Poison just fine as a secondary, it is as a primary that I find it to be weak sauce.

[TheMoncrief]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:03 AM, Uun said:

I run Entangling Aura (Choking Cloud clone) on my Nature/Seismic defender and Fire/Nature controller. I tried the Lockdown proc and found it didn't fire that often and ended up dropping it. My slotting is 3x end/hold IOs, which will generally hold all minions and lieutenants after 2-3 pulses. On the defender I took Char to stack magnitude to hold bosses. 

 

Agreed. Lockdown is OK if you can spare the slot, but the important thing is hold duration. That allows Choking Cloud/Entangling Aura to stack magnitude and hold Lieutenants and the occasional boss if you're really lucky. And to keep minions locked down pretty much forever, instead of just whenever a hold tick happens to land. Being able to essentially erase Minions and Lieutenants from the spawns while you do what needs to be done to the harder targets makes things much easier. At least, it did for my Beasts/Nature Mastermind.

[Doomguide2005]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:30 PM, One IV All said:

I agree. What are some of your favorite Defender primaries to have on your team?

Really doesn't matter.  But since I'm often on one of my Empaths nothing makes me happier at that point than seeing at least one other Empath familiar with GM tactics

 

PS And whatever Defender and support is present hopefully is using their mez protection.  Nothing will slowdown this Empath like standing around snoozing, held, stunned or otherwise mezzed.  No AB, No Forts, no CM, Auras with bigger gaps.   Nevermind my offender pew pew boom tendencies not at work.

Edited May 26 by Doomguide2005

[WuTang]

OK I just mostly finished out my only Defender (Kin/Storm). He's fully slotted but only T3 on all but Lore. And my thoughts are....

 

Holy crap! First of all, Kin is pretty awesome, and I absolutely couldn't live without Cat 5, though there has been one complaint about the "fog" making it "hard to see." But who cares what that shmuck thinks...not this dude. I got bodies flopping around me, my team is rocking with my Fulcrum at perma, actually all my buffs are on perma, and I'm doing hella damage. And I've gotten tons of complements about the "support" pretty much any TF I've been on. I wasn't sure I'd dig him too much, but before I figured his build out, I ran with a Kin/Rad Defender and he/she helped me with my build. It's basically a Scrapper with no mez protection, only maybe better. I have to be in melee range so I can use End drain to my advantage, so my Melee, Range, and AOE Def are roughly soft capped and my S/L Res is 75% with my Energy Res at 65%. I wanted higher Energy Res cause I like running MSRs. I can keep my team buffed and healed all while dishing out damage in the middle of the pile. It feels awesome. I definitely feel like I'm contributing to the team's success. Also, rolling solo...not bad either.

 

Imma Cat 5 fanboy though. Even as a Brute I live for the runs where I have support with it going. I love the chaos it creates.

 

 

[Riverdusk]

On 4/24/2024 at 7:13 PM, Psylenz0511 said:

   3. DO apply the toggle debuffs in the order of enervating field FIRST and then radiation infection. The animation time on radiation infection leaves you in a precarious position. 

 

 

 

On 4/24/2024 at 11:09 PM, PhotriusPyrelus said:

3. What do you mean "The animation time on Radiation infection leaves [me] in a precarious position"?  I've been thinking about anchoring on Lt.s, but it seems more important that I be certain at least one of the bosses is covered in the aura, and since the debuffs don't deactivate upon death any more, but rather when the body disappears, this seemed like a better strategy to me.  I'm certainly not saying I know better, just my line of thinking so far.

 

 

Definitely use RI, I think the other poster is still going off of old information.  Radiation infection's animation time was shortened, quite a long time ago now.  It went from over 3 seconds down to 1.5 seconds, exactly the same as enervating field.  So if either leave you in a 'precarious position', then both do equally.  Personally I find RI makes things a lot safer than EV does, so I'd suggest the exact opposite, RI, then EV.  Only exception would be if the team is really just steamrolling, hitting easily, and not in any real danger, then the extra damage that EV provides through its -res may be all you need. 

 

I know this was an old thread, but I still see quite a few people stuck in the mindset of "RI is so slow and takes forever to animate".  I think the buff to RI flew under most people's radar.

 

 

[Without_Pause]

On 4/24/2024 at 2:09 PM, PhotriusPyrelus said:

And last night some very experienced level 50 let me tag along with him.  He didn't need me there at all.  He was 100% fine soloing everything. 

This isn't a Defender issue. This is a game issue. Welcome to CoH, where no build or AT is required but all are welcome. I got on a team where we were doing +4x8 content with a team of 4. One was an Emp Defender. Everyone else was sub 50 and poorly slotted or not slotted at all. We rolled mission after mission due to that Emp.

[Psylenz0511]

On 6/14/2024 at 5:23 PM, Riverdusk said:

 

 

Definitely use RI, I think the other poster is still going off of old information.  Radiation infection's animation time was shortened, quite a long time ago now.  It went from over 3 seconds down to 1.5 seconds, exactly the same as enervating field.  So if either leave you in a 'precarious position', then both do equally.  Personally I find RI makes things a lot safer than EV does, so I'd suggest the exact opposite, RI, then EV.  Only exception would be if the team is really just steamrolling, hitting easily, and not in any real danger, then the extra damage that EV provides through its -res may be all you need. 

 

I know this was an old thread, but I still see quite a few people stuck in the mindset of "RI is so slow and takes forever to animate".  I think the buff to RI flew under most people's radar.

 

 

I have been alting on some Radiation defenders on Everlasting. I know they said they shorted RI animation and I didn't say don't use it I said apply it second. I still feel rooted or stuck casting RI where I using only my experience not a stopwatch, EF seems quicker still. Perhaps there is still the exact same time for effective activation of the abilities. 

Casting on a lieutenant or a  pesky less mobile (not a teleporter or a Freak that flies all over the map) minion is a good tactic. The boss usually dies first.

 

EDIT:  btw. if I tp next to a boss or lieut to anchor, the safest place is next to an anchor or completely out of range (which I don't do). EF doesn't miss. There is not a minimum effective 5% where it doen't work. So it debuffs incoming dmg making a one-shot or max damage first strike from a boss or lieutenant less likely. If you TP next to a boss, hit RI, there is always a 5% chance you WILL eat an alpha strike.

Edited July 3 by Psylenz0511

[kelika2]

Late to the thread but the only real time I have fun with Defenders are ones that i make designed to play at a low level

 

Like my Thermal/Fire gets a lot of use.  Forge in posi is fairly useful to give a damage dealer to overpower all the -tohit and +def.  same thing with a time/fire

I got an Emp/Sonic with two builds in the event a team needs support or extra damage

and I love my trick arrow/fire defender in synapes just to set everything on fire

 

actually my trick arrow/fire defender gets played at all levels

[surje]

I have to say that I love defenders, but rad/ is not my choice unless going with sonic for -res to couple with it. my fav fender is storm/storm its walking chaos, and to be more polite on teams i slot the kb set sudden acceleration proc in tornado and lightning storm.  keep at it. you'll find your fender in you.

[Teklord]

some points for the OP

• Rad/Rad is very good solo BUT you need to corner pull with your toggle debuffs. You pull with Rad infect.
• Rad Blast dps is low and the set has many slow activations. It can be proc'd reasonably well. And with Rad Infect you will hit stuff.
• Toggle Aura debuffs are rough to use on teams. You end up either taking the alpha strike or putting the debuffs on late after someone else broke the spawn.
• Choking Cloud isn't a required power and personally I never ran it.
• Some people above seem to think that Rad Infect main power is -def but it does give -tohit as well which means you are helping the team stay alive. The issue is that to use Rad Emission well means going relatively slow, corner pulling, working with the team, etc. I haven't had a team do this on homecomin, but on live in the hollows arc I used to experience this a lot.
• Rad Emission does have some real benefits. Take Fallout and vengeance, and teleport other. When you get someone who runs off and dies just teleport them to the main group, hit vengeance and then use their body to blow up spawns.
• EF and Lingering radiation are absolutely amazing for AVs, GMs, etc
• The purple patch really hits Rad Emission hard.

 

[Doomguide2005]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:40 PM, Psylenz0511 said:

I have been alting on some Radiation defenders on Everlasting. I know they said they shorted RI animation and I didn't say don't use it I said apply it second. I still feel rooted or stuck casting RI where I using only my experience not a stopwatch, EF seems quicker still. Perhaps there is still the exact same time for effective activation of the abilities. 

Casting on a lieutenant or a  pesky less mobile (not a teleporter or a Freak that flies all over the map) minion is a good tactic. The boss usually dies first.

 

EDIT:  btw. if I tp next to a boss or lieut to anchor, the safest place is next to an anchor or completely out of range (which I don't do). EF doesn't miss. There is not a minimum effective 5% where it doen't work. So it debuffs incoming dmg making a one-shot or max damage first strike from a boss or lieutenant less likely. If you TP next to a boss, hit RI, there is always a 5% chance you WILL eat an alpha strike.

     Assuming CoD is correct the one advantage EF has on RI is 'animation time before effect'.  EV is 0.5 vs RI at 1.067.  Other than this they appear identical.

     If a +3 or +4 Boss is taking that alpha strike at you it's closer to a 9% hit chance for eating his attack.  Boss accuracy 1.3, relative level at +4 is a 1.4 accuracy mod.   Add all his friends in each with a 1.4 accuracy mod and you're almost certain to take some damage.  So which is most correct to use first probably depends a great deal what your defense is.  If you are at or near the softcap for whatever reason (without RI) I'd use EF first as reducing the damage that beats defense and hits is best.  If on the otherhand defenses are relatively lower then using RI first to effectively cap your defenses likely results in less alpha damage taken.

 

EDIT:  Using CC I'm not as certain how effective that is at reducing an alpha fire return.  Been long enough since I even tried to see so I'm not sure how noticeable the pulse effect is.  It pulses the hold(s) every 2 seconds.  If you catch the spawn within 1.0 sec of arrival (say teleporting in with cmbt tp) with a hold pulse the minions are likely held at that point and it ought to seriously reduce the amount of attacks in the alpha.

     

Edited September 4 by Doomguide2005

[Riverdusk]

I absolutely love choking cloud myself.  If nothing else it acts as a sort of "melee defense".  Things that get close tend to get held pretty quick before they can do much to you.  I also find it much more useful than the once every couple of minutes, at best, EM Pulse, so why not.  A choking cloud tic is actually quicker (2 seconds) than trying to cast EM Pulse (2.93 seconds), and of course, choking cloud keeps going.   Have to admit where it really shines more than anywhere is on my illusion/rad controller though, fantastic for setting up containment. 😀

 

I use to be so-so on choking cloud myself as I swore I remember it didn't use to be nearly as good.  I checked the old Tomax website and saw there that the tics use to be once every 5 seconds instead of 2, so that would explain it.  Not sure exactly when they buffed it, but it is SO much better now.

 

Another advantage of rad is personally I think you can take everything worthwhile in 6 power picks.  I always skip the rez and fallout, and almost always skip EM Pulse.  In my experience 90% of the time before you can even get the rez off the person has already hit a wakie or a temp self rez, or someone else has rezzed them.  That goes double for fallout as then it is also likely by the time you use tp other and try to hit fallout, the mob is already dead anyway.  Maybe if you are in a really coordinated team (that is also not steamrolling), but I found that exceedingly rare.  

 

Does leave you more room for other things than most powersets and without really skimping on the power of what the set can do.

Edited September 4 by Riverdusk

[Teklord]

In the Faithful Fans of Fallout SG part of Repeat Offenders we used fallout very often and were steamrolling. It is just a matter of having everyone in melee range most of the time. Just do a targeting macro for dead teammates and firing off fallout. BTW the same trick works for mutate but I do understand how tempting it is for players to hit their rise of the phoenix or return to battle.

[Doomguide2005]

7 hours ago, Teklord said:

In the Faithful Fans of Fallout SG part of Repeat Offenders we used fallout very often and were steamrolling. It is just a matter of having everyone in melee range most of the time. Just do a targeting macro for dead teammates and firing off fallout. BTW the same trick works for mutate but I do understand how tempting it is for players to hit their rise of the phoenix or return to battle.

Love some frakken slotted Fallout.  3 Damage/Recharge, and a mix of Enzyme and Lysosome HOs to debuff the heck out of anything that lives.

[biostem]

For me, the reason to choose any AT, (besides their obvious connection to what powers they have access to), is what *I* want to focus on.  To that end, I've been leveling up a marine/dark defender, in order to maximize the buff/debuff values, while also giving me a few solid direct attacks to fall back on.  The highest values for other such powers, like the leadership ones, is a nice boon as well!

[Psylenz0511]

On 9/4/2024 at 12:00 AM, Doomguide2005 said:

     Assuming CoD is correct the one advantage EF has on RI is 'animation time before effect'.  EV is 0.5 vs RI at 1.067.  Other than this they appear identical.

     If a +3 or +4 Boss is taking that alpha strike at you it's closer to a 9% hit chance for eating his attack.  Boss accuracy 1.3, relative level at +4 is a 1.4 accuracy mod.   Add all his friends in each with a 1.4 accuracy mod and you're almost certain to take some damage.  So which is most correct to use first probably depends a great deal what your defense is.  If you are at or near the softcap for whatever reason (without RI) I'd use EF first as reducing the damage that beats defense and hits is best.  If on the otherhand defenses are relatively lower then using RI first to effectively cap your defenses likely results in less alpha damage taken.

 

EDIT:  Using CC I'm not as certain how effective that is at reducing an alpha fire return.  Been long enough since I even tried to see so I'm not sure how noticeable the pulse effect is.  It pulses the hold(s) every 2 seconds.  If you catch the spawn within 1.0 sec of arrival (say teleporting in with cmbt tp) with a hold pulse the minions are likely held at that point and it ought to seriously reduce the amount of attacks in the alpha.

     

 

quote for quote: 

 

I don't use combat teleport. I use regular teleport which NOT ALWAYS but some times gives you moments of invulnerability after the TP, to fire of EM Pulse or have choking take effect.

I cannot imagine not having EM Pulse in my stable of many robust radiation emission abilities for the burst -regen numbers on hard targets.

[MoonSheep]

On 9/5/2024 at 12:06 AM, biostem said:

For me, the reason to choose any AT, (besides their obvious connection to what powers they have access to), is what *I* want to focus on.  To that end, I've been leveling up a marine/dark defender, in order to maximize the buff/debuff values, while also giving me a few solid direct attacks to fall back on.  The highest values for other such powers, like the leadership ones, is a nice boon as well!

 

my man! nice to see someone else who also chooses a defender to maximise their buff/debuff contribution

[Without_Pause]

A big reason to go Thermal Def for me was due to the higher numbers. I would be more inclined to go with a different AT if I felt like the higher numbers were less needed, see Kin or something which buffs Def as most people are already covering Def on some level. As always, you can hit a limit to how high a buff can go. Good luck hitting debuff limits.