High level enemy group revamps

[biostem]

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

You sound dismissive of their argument.

Just responding in kind to the person who was dismissive of me to begin with.

 

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

you talk of learning a games mechanics…in city of fucking heroes

Yeah - that's why people never get confused by enhancement slotting, ED, IO set bonuses and the rule of 5, and let's not get started on incarnate stuff.

 

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

How many difficult games do you actually play, I wonder?

Plenty.

[Jacke]

18 hours ago, kelika2 said:

wont be long before cimerorians learn buildup, shield charge and grant cover

 

"Hello, my name is Hans, and this is my brother Franz, and we're going to PUMP YOU UP!"

 

And afterwards, the Cimerorians/Circle of Thorns/Council/5th Column/Arachnos were never the same.  😺

 

Notwithstanding my weak humour, some of these changes are definitely challenging.  And I've yet to experience most of them solo....

[kelika2]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

"Hello, my name is Hans, and this is my brother Franz, and we're going to PUMP YOU UP!"

 

And afterwards, the Cimerorians/Circle of Thorns/Council/5th Column/Arachnos were never the same.  😺

just dawned on me that the council in ITF were not changed

[Jacke]

3 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

just dawned on me that the council in ITF were not changed

 

Hmmm.  I think that's the 5th Column in the ITF.  More the "North of the Alps" fascists rather than the "South of the Alps" fascists.

 

I think they weren't changed as TFs have their own spawndefs.

 

 

Edited May 10 by Jacke

[KaizenSoze]

11 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Hmmm.  I think that's the 5th Column in the ITF.  More the "North of the Alps" fascists rather than the "South of the Alps" fascists.

 

I think they weren't changed as TFs have their own spawndefs.

 

 

Much like CoT in Dark Astoria. They are a separate spawndef and did not get page 7 updates.

[golstat2003]

12 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Just popping in to remind everyone to keep things respectful. Antagonizing other players over thier playstyle preferences is quite frowned upon.

 

That said, the Council were simply brought "up to par" so to speak. Before, just about anyone could solo them at +4/x8. This has been remedied in order to encourage team play at the higher difficulties that are meant to be team content. There's "feeling super", and then there's gaining reward for no risk, which is bad game design.

 

Also, per the question posed by the title of the OP, you can leave feedback in the Suggestions & Feedback forum. In order to comment on changes that are being added to the game before they go Live, keep an eye out for Open Beta, and comment on changes there.

 

Thanks for this!

 

I should also point out that Homecoming team also allows anyone to sign up for Closed Beta. And the Testers Discord. There are really no barriers from what I see to getting in to look at and discuss future changes to City of Heroes Homecoming. Just a willingness to help test, be a good citizen there, and not leak anything they are working on.

 

There is no excuse for anyone who wants to look at future changes ahead of time and give feedback on them in the Discord, to do so.

[lemming]

Just to point out, I thought the Cimerorians had "Grant Cover".  May have to go do some power analyzing.

[golstat2003]

12 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

Personally, I like the new Council. They aren't chumps anymore. I think Malta needs the next revamp. They've become the chumps at 50 now.

 

That’s cause we know their schtick. For most of my characters when they see certain Malta Mobs, it’s target first, ask questions later, let <Diety> sort out the bodies later, “on sight” as the kids say. 😛

 

The Carnies and Arachnos in mass numbers I still find deadly as hell at high levels. 

[golstat2003]

11 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I wouldn’t say it’s harder personally, it’s still the same ish CoH to me. If anything Council got kind of a lateral adjustment. Nothing really new to learn with the group, it’s just tedium incarnate for solo players in the faux pass of difficulty. 
 

I view HM as the same. It’s only difficult in the vein of learning the new enemies in say a first run. And even then, if you stack the team in a certain way, that assessment doesn’t hold true either. 
 

I do get where OP is coming from. I was miffed council were going from my get stoned and bash some heads group to ugggh you mean I have to slog through a group of bullet sponge self rezzers?!? 
 

But claiming this group had a learning curve added to it(not by you, but others) makes me wonder if whoever says it has ever played other games with actual difficulty and real learning curves. 

 

Plus you can turn down the difficulty to make them chumps they used to be lol

 

I actually do that anytime I don’t want to deal with any nonsense while playing. Would be nice if the setting made some of the key bosses in the things like the Patron Arc easier. I would not mind a new  -1 setting just for that.

 

(I’d also like a higher setting on the opposite end, that added some of the HM stuff into newspapers. But that would be a miracle long term pipe dream, that I don’t see the devs being able to do until like 2034 lol)

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Politely disagree. The updated Circle of Thorns and Arachnos are still much nastier than Council. Council are just not the punching bags they used to be.

 

The game is too easy at the high end. Old Council were a joke. Now, at least they are a bit more dangerous. PI radio teams are still ripping through them, just have to use more powers now.

 

Controls are now a bit more useful. They at least speed up the clear time due to holding mobs that can transform or stopping them from using some of their nasty powers like those AOE galaxy powers.

 

Disagree.

 

In pretty much every PuG I’ve be on in the 50s no one bothers with anything than just doing more damage. If the changes goal was to make teams think more or use more tactics like control versus Council, then they failed in that regard.

 

As mr and many others mentioned (including yourself) teams still steam roll them. The Council are sure as heck NOT much more

harder for TEAMS.

 

It just takes a bit longer than before to clear them out with all the rolling super damage incarnated level 50s bring. So mostly more tedious to deal with Council. But not nearly as bad as CoT or Arachnos as you mentioned.

 

Solo Players will and do have a tougher time though with Council. Which was the point lol

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, tidge said:

Hero Safeguard's do allow you to face off against Lord Recluse as he robs a bank!

 

This is probably the most hilarious aspect of them. Dude is strapped for cash LOL

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

The game current is probably the most solo friendly is very been. It's so easy to max out Incarnates. The action house is full of enhancement. SG buffs are easily available.

 

As someone who likes running PUG. I know I am weird. I find it enjoyable to gather up 7 stranger and see what happens. At sub 50 levels, around +2/3 sometimes +4 even. It's fun, but at 50 it's just boring. A lot of players have gotten use to easy mode at 50 and don't want to stick around for a "slower" experience. I have noted more satisfaction in team chat when there is actually a bit of a struggle. Extreme versions of that would be AE 801s, but those are extreme missions most people won't join.

 

The solution is to run with smaller

teams. It’s easier to find 1-2 folks who may want to do those harder missions and even AE 801s than it is to find 7 others.

 

I never understood the obsession with team leaders who think the team must always be 8 players all the time. I actually really love team leaders who get us up to 4 or 5 and say “let’s go, we can recruit on the way” and put the mission up soon after joining the team. Saves everyone time.

[Ukase]

9 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I have never had 5 billion in influence. Never will. I have farmed some, crafted a lot, and just played. You make a lot of influence just playing.

 

My problem with high end. Practically no risk for reward. Mob are still getting wiped out incredible quick. So, quick that I can barely have to time to click more than 1-2 attacks sometimes.

 

Doesn't feel fun. Doesn't feel powerful. It's feels boring. Add a "little" bit of difficultly and people might actually have to use a "tiny" bit of teamwork.

 

Also, I have suggested nerfs. I think the problem is on both ends.

So, knowing you a little bit, I am probably being a little unfair when I ask these questions. 

1. Would you say that you spend more time than other players on figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of your characters than the average player? 
2. Would you say that you're probably inclined to dig deeper into complex problems than the average player? 

I completely get that you would find your excellence at portions of the game to be boring. I also get that you would enjoy more interactive team play, with tactics and strategy coming into play. You recognize that tactics and strategy only enter into bits and pieces of the game, and then the problems are somewhat solved or worked around, eventually. There was a time when folks would try to pull Black Scorpion as opposed to just jumping into the midst of BS, Mako, GW and Scirocco. The difference between these two tactics is generally team composition blended with players sharing what they know about builds here on the forums, and I suppose Reddit to some degree. And, experience. Compared to a lack of same. 

The thing is, while you're certainly entitled to push for and hope for higher risk/reward scenarios, you're not seeing the average player. Or, your just presenting your case - which is completely fine. You're having experiences that I know when I pug, I only see about half the time. The other half is full of dead teammates. They don't have IOs. A level 50 tank who's relying on SOs. And if his teammates had IOs, it wouldn't matter, but 3 of them don't have any either. One is a level 26 controller. No idea why level 40 and lower is even allowed to come to PI now that SGs are really old news. But then again..yeah, I get it. 

In any event, while it may not be most players, there are still a good amount of players that are playing a different game. And while nobody's saying they have to do an advanced mode lady grey, when our hc dev team is boosting the difficulty of radios - the average players bread and butter to get to 50...yeah, they're not likely to enjoy it at all. 

Doesn't make you wrong. Doesn't make them wrong either. Just different. 
There is no need for any revamps of anything. There is a need for more content. That should be the focus. But that's just this man's opinion. 

[Bionic_Flea]

While Kaizen doesn't need me to speak for him, I'm going to anyway.  😛

 

He has spent A LOT of time on the test server and creating a parser to help evaluate powers.  He's too busy to make inf!

 

And he works really hard to find bugs before they make it to the live game.

 

Edited May 10 by Bionic_Flea

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I should also point out that Homecoming team also allows anyone to sign up for Closed Beta. And the Testers Discord. There are really no barriers from what I see to getting in to look at and discuss future changes to City of Heroes Homecoming. Just a willingness to help test, be a good citizen there, and not leak anything they are working on.

 

There is no excuse for anyone who wants to look at future changes ahead of time and give feedback on them in the Discord, to do so.

I get a bug every few months or so to play and play pretty intensely for a couple weeks, then don't play again for months. I'm a casual hardcore player. Playing on and commenting on a closed beta isn't something on my plate for this game. I have other games I already do that for, both in paid and unpaid fashions.

[Sanguinesun]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

In any event, while it may not be most players, there are still a good amount of players that are playing a different game. And while nobody's saying they have to do an advanced mode lady grey, when our hc dev team is boosting the difficulty of radios - the average players bread and butter to get to 50...yeah, they're not likely to enjoy it at all. 

 

This.   The ones calling for content to continue to be harder, leveling to take exceedingly longer, influence to be harder to gain etc just basically do not care that the majority of the player base as it currently is do not have the same view of the game as they do.  They know this as well and are 100% ok with because they actually detest it being relaxed/inclusive/etc .  That's part of the mindset I was referring to earlier.  To them, the game should be this ever imposed challenge that filters out the rest(majority) of the current player base.   They'll continue to misdirect with "well dont play against x group of mobs"  or "well dont play against x difficulty" or any other reasons to shift focus away from content being changed to be harder.  Then the next time when the next change(and yes there will be more going forward as again this isnt the first time) they'll rinse and repeat similar misdirections for the next batch of feature creep that goes in.

 

 

Edited May 10 by Sanguinesun

[Sanguinesun]

11 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

I get a bug every few months or so to play and play pretty intensely for a couple weeks, then don't play again for months. I'm a casual hardcore player. Playing on and commenting on a closed beta isn't something on my plate for this game. I have other games I already do that for, both in paid and unpaid fashions.

 

Their comment was to misdirect and shift blame on you for not having contributed to affecting change prior to the changes being implemented.  Its a common tactic on HC. Change isnt cemented once it goes live and things could be changed/reverted at any time per post implemented feedback given as you have if the powers that be really wanted to(and they do not).   Its again just a tactic(among many) to be dismissive of criticisms is all.

Edited May 10 by Sanguinesun

[Excraft]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, Eiko-chan said:

Where am I supposed to discuss this topic? Why the hell is the Council hard now? Who's fucking idea was this and why is it just allowed to happen!? 

 

Several people complained the game is too easy, support classes were "unnecessary" at higher levels, healers were superfluous etc. and cried for harder content.  Now that we're getting harder content, people are complaining.  I feel for the HC folks on this one.  They just can't win.

 

Honestly, what did people expect would happen?  It was obvious from the get go that in order to make content more "challenging/harder", HC was going to adjust enemy NPCs to totally neuter defense through auto-hit AoEs, neuter resists with un-resistable damage, negate damage and make support/buff/debuff roles more a mandatory must-have requirement than nice-to-have to round out the team.

 

I personally don't find the new and "improved" Council or CoT any more difficult.  They're more tedious, but not more difficult.  You still have options available as you don't need to run 4-star hard mode TFs and avoid the whole WoW-esque style of heavily scripted dungeons where you make a tiny mistake and you're thoroughly punished type of play.

[Eiko-chan]

19 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Several people complained the game is too easy, support classes were "unnecessary" at higher levels, healers were superfluous etc. and cried for harder content.  Now that we're getting harder content, people are complaining.  I feel for the HC folks on this one.  They just can't win.

Welcome to game design. And capitalism.

 

The trick is figuring out which group is your core audience, and which sector costs you more by favouring the other. It can be a tricky balance to find, but it's not asking the impossible. Literally every organisation that exists has to thread this needle.

[Infinitum]

I have a slight opinion on this.   

 

I think the Council were overtuned but not in terms of unbearable difficulty - because it's not that they are unbearably hard now but more annoying and tedious - more along the lines of when a fake nemesis goes untouchable - or a Paragon protector when they raise their hand because they are sure (hopefully someone old enough will get that reference) and then you just stand there staring at each other for what seems like an eternity with them slapping you ever so often.  And yeah yeah I know. Kill them before they do it. Right. Got it. lol

 

With the council something irritating happens every mob - sometimes multiple times every mob.  I mean it used to piss me off before when a warwolf would occassionally spawn. Now I just leave the room. lol

 

All in all I get the sentiment for the need for the change but disagree with the effect of making it frustrating rather than ooo better be on my toes here - which really wasn't accomplished by it - well not to the point of this can't be done unless x happens.  They are more difficult but with annoying party favors now. 

 

At the end of the day it's still only a slight opinion because I quit running radio missions regularly before live sunset.

 

Thats just my opinion - at the end of the day it doesn't stop me from playing or having fun - so meh. lol

[Jacke]

On-topic, I've seen discussion of the enemy group changes go by, haven't experienced them myself much, certainly not solo (the most intense) as I haven't soloed recently.  I wonder at their balance, especially as I see a lot of discussion after the fact about the GMs and whether their changes were right.

 

Now going way off-topic.  The Secret World....

 

On 5/8/2024 at 11:18 PM, Erratic1 said:

Oh my, one can dream The Secret World would get fresh blood and development.

 

Besides, in The Secret World/Secret World Legends you could always go back to New England and casually own things...something you would know if you had suitably exposed yourself over time to many microdoses of The Filth like Dr. Klein had.

 

23 hours ago, Krimson said:

The major difference is you EXPECT to be at a disadvantage in Secret World. I never expected to feel super or powerful in that game. I didn't care for Legends, but the first iteration felt like playing a Stephen King novel.

 

23 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Disadvantage...of being unkillable since the Machine would bring you back. Admittedly, Lilith comes up with a wickedly warped way of dealing with that. I hated her but I have to admit, it was brilliant.

 

Darn I miss that game.

 

I miss The Secret World too.

 

Fighting my altitis I knew well from City, I went with a single character in the Dragon.  Only vaguely remember the very start of a character.  Remember ending up in New England.  And with my experience from SWTOR of seeing "WoW in Space!", I could see the gaming system in TSW took a different path to kind of end up at a WoW like system.

 

Those initial voiced animation shorts that started a mission, amazing.  (Still several on YouTube.)  The game really felt like you were trapped in an Eldritch tormented world.

 

Which was TSW problem, I think.  It was just too good at being a horrific Eldritch world.  I never felt safe.  Sure, there were little protected areas back in the Home Cities.  Much more if you were a Templar as London had those huge areas I could barely perceive because no go if you weren't a Templar.  Other safe zones were added, but more after I stopped playing.  No matter how bad things were in City of Heroes, there were always those well known safe spots to go.  I think this is a cardinal rule when making a horrific MMO: the players need to have good places where they mostly feel safe.

 

When I found out that all the idle TSW characters were wiped when the game was recast as Secret World Legends, well, that was it.  Don't know if I could ever go back.

[SuggestorK]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:57 AM, biostem said:

The only things I dislike about the Council revamp are the self-rezzers and how it seems to sometimes produce groups that are all galaxy troops.  If you were used to ROFL-stomping Council and can't now, then maybe you need to revisit your build or tactics... 

what i dont like is that they allowed now to tp the player around, nothing i hate more then not able to fully control the movement of my char.

Edited May 10 by SuggestorK

[Ukase]

6 hours ago, Excraft said:

Several people complained the game is too easy, support classes were "unnecessary" at higher levels, healers were superfluous etc. and cried for harder content.  Now that we're getting harder content, people are complaining.  I feel for the HC folks on this one.  They just can't win.

My perception stems from back on retail when defenders and controllers were desperate to team to a degree. A fire tank didn't need their buffs to play at +4/8, so they were essentially relegated to doing whatever it is a controller or defender does when they can't find a team. Rumor has it a controller was the first AT to utter the words "PL Meh!"
Now, I know there were some SGs that hosted various theme teams of all controllers, or all defenders that made fire farmers look a bit lethargic when it came to map clearing times, but that was 8 defenders or controllers, not one tank. I read it in the chat on retail "Why should I team with you? I don't need you."

That was probably the beginning of the outcry to nerf farmers, or soloers who could handle +4/8 without external buffs. So many people (not players) who were really feeling alone and couldn't log on and team because solo tanks didn't need them. And shortly after that is when they added a very strong element of fear (the power, not the emotion) to burn. 
"This will encourage fire tanks to recruit controllers for their group immobs" was likely the thinking. 

And as you can imagine, or remember, the outcry was loud. A fair number of folks cancelled their subs and probably still haven't returned. 
And you're right. They (HC Devs) can't win. Not the way they're going about it now. 

The sad part is I don't really have a solution. At least, not a well-thought out, fair one. I think it's the inability of some characters (not the people behind them) to get on teams easily that is the driving force behind this more than some sharp coder/player who wants challenging content. But, I could certainly be wrong. Either way, I'm sure there's a way to:
1. Encourage SGs and other strong leaders to host diverse teams for diverse content
2. Allow solo players to feel super without having to fork over 7.5M every hour (amplifiers from p2w) or memorize sg empowerment buff recipes 
3. For once, let Snarky have a pleasant experience with a PUG. 

It's the first one that I believe is the real lynchpin of the solution. Teaming doesn't add a thing to me personally, except easier badging. Sure, some characters that lack dps will get some faster xp. But there's not any more fun than there is taking my ice blaster through it solo. But - some folks could be on a Statesman build and still not have any fun unless they were on a team. And, I think that's at least 70% of the players. Maybe more. So, efforts should be made to encourage teaming. But I don't know that more challenging content is the way to do it. Imagine if the LFG actually functioned as it was intended. Would that solve some problems? Sure. It might cause some problems, too. Who can say? 

I do think the best thing any of us can do is try to host/lead more content so players aren't feeling like they can't get a team. 

[Seed22]

15 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

 You mean an MMO that avoids tedious gear grinding and an actual fun combat system. It's not a training wheels MMO, it's a superior MMO!

 

CoH cured me of "real" MMOs.

Thats very true! 
 

But It’d be very remiss of me to not acknowledge how this game gave me the reflexes to play disc priest in WoW or Feral Druid, or how it taught me to play counselor in Star Wars Old Republic. 
 

Its a wonderful training wheels MMO, just like another crab’s treasure is a wonderful introduction to soulslikes

[Seed22]

15 hours ago, biostem said:

Just responding in kind to the person who was dismissive of me to begin with.

 

Yeah - that's why people never get confused by enhancement slotting, ED, IO set bonuses and the rule of 5, and let's not get started on incarnate stuff.

 

Plenty.

Guides have been streamlined to the point where all that difficulty you mentioned can be learned with an iota of research minus any nitty gritty things like actual damage numbers thanks to CoD shenanigans. 
 

It’s not intuitive, but that doesn’t make it difficult to grasp. Once you’re aware of the system, it’s fairly simple to learn. Proof is I learned it as a 10 year old back in the day. It just really REALLY needs to be made clearer to the average player I’d say. 
 

And that last bit was because it felt like you were suggesting this game has some high skill ceiling, which it really does not, to me implying you haven’t so much as touched an actually difficult game. The souls series and soulslikes come to mind, or even crash bandicoot back in the day. 
 

Disregard

 

**I want to be perfectly clear in this, I do NOT want to gatekeep in any way by saying if you dont play souls games or soulslikes you cant talk about difficulty, I just have in the past seen a litany of people come through with this haughty and dismissibe attitude of player complaints because they have some builds that solo +4x8 or speed through HM 4 or whatever and are out of touch. Its my way of trying to bring them back down to Earth and understand, such achievements don’t give you the right to dismiss others, and that there are always better players than you.

Edited May 10 by Seed22