High level enemy group revamps

[tidge]

My thoughts keep coming back to:

• The Council, and before them Crey, were pretty unimaginative enemies that rarely provided a challenge.
• Neither the Council nor Crey used even a fraction of the sort of powers/game effects that they should have had access to given the game's Lore.
• Neither the Council nor Crey is particularly out of line with other groups that spawn in the level range 40+
• Neither the Council nor Crey are clones of any other groups that spawn

Every time an enemy shows up using tricks that players have been using to defeat critters, there is going to be some who feel twinges of "but that's not fair!"... but it doesn't mean it isn't fair. If anything those formerly mediocre groups now play like they ought to, given the Lore.

 

If anyone wasn't here for the Fire attacks having a -Def component added to them, and you feel like seeing how arguments about how somebody doesn't listen to me play out I recommend spending some time with the search bar. Spoilers: The game didn't end in a fiery cataclysm.

 

[Infinitum]

I can think of 2 instances where the devs made adjustments to a change - can't remember if it was open or closed beta honestly but they do listen. 

 

1. Tanker changes.  Tests that showed bruising on live actually led to better overall damage than the proposed beta change and they altered the modifier to adjust. 

 

2. The defense type changes - Tests with invul and EnA - that led to those and other armors getting psi and toxic added to various armors including invul and EnA.  It was really rough at first on armors like that - when my tanker was one involved that melted like ice cream on a hot day facing off arachnos - mainly because of toxic - others witness and confirmed and the concerns were voiced - CPH was gracious and added small avenues to resist those exotic damage types in short notice.  He really didn't have to though - but he did listen. 

 

I also altered my builds to incorporate as much toxic as I could squeeze in and started prioritizing those targets.   Which IMO - even though I hated the apparent weakness at first - have come to appreciate the feeling of threat and strategy to overcome it. 

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Like it or not, it is still just a private server that has allowed us all access to play along.

This has not been true since January 1st, when Homecoming got an official license for the game. They are not "just a private server". And telling people to go play on a different, non-licensed server is not a solution. 

[Ghost]

21 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

This has not been true since January 1st, when Homecoming got an official license for the game. They are not "just a private server". And telling people to go play on a different, non-licensed server is not a solution. 

I’m just not sure how true that actually is.

Yes they were given a license to operate a server - but it’s technically still a private server.

They did agree to some things, but still have absolute control over everything.

 

Now, I’m no expert on anything, and may be misinterpreting the whole agreement.

However, what I do know is that they are under no obligation to appease the players.

Companies such as Sony or Blizzard have to make the player base happy or they will lose money and eventually go out of business.

 

 

[Sanguinesun]

19 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I’m just not sure how true that actually is.

Yes they were given a license to operate a server - but it’s technically still a private server.

They did agree to some things, but still have absolute control over everything.

 

Now, I’m no expert on anything, and may be misinterpreting the whole agreement.

However, what I do know is that they are under no obligation to appease the players.

Companies such as Sony or Blizzard have to make the player base happy or they will lose money and eventually go out of business.

 

 

 

1. The current structure of HC relies on volunteer donations as they're only allowed to be a non profit per the conditions of their licensure.  Not saying people would abruptly and long term stop donating of course but it is a similar model of consideration for sustainability you're attempting to counter your "business" example of.

 

2. Licensure also is on certain terms and conditions on how the HC conduct themselves. Failure to do so could result in loss of that licensure as well as stringent cease and desist orders from NCSoft. 

 

 

Not saying again that any of these things would occur.  But making statements that HC is wholly unbeholden or accountable to anyone just isnt accurate.

Edited May 11 by Sanguinesun

[Ghost]

2 minutes ago, Sanguinesun said:

 

  But making statements that HC is wholly unbeholden or accountable to anyone just isnt accurate.

I could be thinking about this all wrong.

But let’s say HC came right out and said “screw all you babies.  Play our way or leave!”, causing everyone to leave.

Wouldn’t it just go back to what it was before?  A small server of a couple hundred players?

It wouldn’t cease to exist, and it’s not like a profitable business would be shutting down.

 

Im not advocating or defending the HC crew.  I’m just trying to understand why players think HC has a responsibility to the players - or maybe they do, and I’m just not understanding (which wouldn’t be the first time I didn’t understand something)

 

[Sanguinesun]

9 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I could be thinking about this all wrong.

But let’s say HC came right out and said “screw all you babies.  Play our way or leave!”, causing everyone to leave.

Wouldn’t it just go back to what it was before?  A small server of a couple hundred players?

It wouldn’t cease to exist, and it’s not like a profitable business would be shutting down.

 

Im not advocating or defending the HC crew.  I’m just trying to understand why players think HC has a responsibility to the players - or maybe they do, and I’m just not understanding (which wouldn’t be the first time I didn’t understand something)

 

 

If that was in part or whole against the agreement with NCSoft or worse that because the licensure ties NCSoft representatively with HC, then you can sure fire bet that NCSoft would have the rights to pull the licensure and as well because they own the IP, tell officially, once and for all HC to cease or face legal issues. Its even possible that the licensure now has liability clauses too. Obviously that's a worst case likely to not happen scenario but the point is again, The license is a contract with NCsoft and again, HC is beholden ultimately unto them. You're thinking the thousands(yes thousands as people play from all over) as being miniscule, but if something occurred that cause PR/optics to paint NCsoft in a bad light due to having given HC the license, I assure you, that license would be pulled immediately.

 

That'd of course probably not prevent them from going (again) underground like they did quietly for years either. 

Edited May 11 by Sanguinesun

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

I could be thinking about this all wrong.

But let’s say HC came right out and said “screw all you babies.  Play our way or leave!”, causing everyone to leave.

Wouldn’t it just go back to what it was before?  A small server of a couple hundred players?

It wouldn’t cease to exist, and it’s not like a profitable business would be shutting down.

 

Im not advocating or defending the HC crew.  I’m just trying to understand why players think HC has a responsibility to the players - or maybe they do, and I’m just not understanding (which wouldn’t be the first time I didn’t understand something)

 

 

Homecoming has an obligation to a limited extent. They survive on donations, even before the license. In the extreme mid they didn’t get enough donations, (aka hypothetical players get angry and 75 to 80 percent of us leave) they might have to take two servers completely offline. Whatever lead to this might  probably lead to them losing the license, which would be insane to think they would want any such thing after spending two years + trying to get the license in the first place.

 

Also not saying anything of the sort would happen. I have not seen any major changes they have done that would lead to the hypothetical above. On the contrary, players seem to general like the direction this server is going. (See the servers being yellow and one red night after night after night). Unless we assume 75 to 80 percent of the player base like to hurt themselves, there must be a reason they keep logging in.

 

On a more philosophical level the HC devs are volunteers who do this because they love the game and the community. So they do indeed make changes when well thought out arguments are made. Some have pointed some out in this thread.

 

Folks just have to realize not every suggestion we make has to be implemented. If they implemented even half of the suggestions in the Suggestions and Feedback forum or that come up during the betas, this game would be a confusing inconsistent mess. Players often make contradicting suggestions at the same time. It’s up to a dev team (paid or not) to be able to discern which mesh with the vision of the game they are shooting for.

[Laucianna]

I mean with all due respect, if you are still levelling your toon and setting what equates to the difficulty (x8) it is going to get harder? The game I believe is intended to be played at +0/x1 as that is default, the option to raise both the team size number and level modifier is there for when the game feels too easy and you want a harder fight, either against tougher mobs (Level increase) or more mobs (Team size).

Sorry if I am reading this wrong but it sounds like you have the difficulty boosted to something you are both not enjoying and struggling with, the game is not meant to be played so easily at +4/x8 that has just sadly become the norm ❤️ 

[Eiko-chan]

1 hour ago, Laucianna said:

Sorry if I am reading this wrong but it sounds like you have the difficulty boosted to something you are both not enjoying and struggling with, the game is not meant to be played so easily at +4/x8 that has just sadly become the norm ❤️ 

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn. This isn't about x8 difficulty. This is about the Council specifically. It may not be easy to notice in spawns that are largely Darkwolves and Vampyri, though. It appears to be related to the Vortex and Galaxy updates.

[Laucianna]

30 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn. This isn't about x8 difficulty. This is about the Council specifically. It may not be easy to notice in spawns that are largely Darkwolves and Vampyri, though. It appears to be related to the Vortex and Galaxy updates.

I would understand if they were causing you issues at the default difficulty, but you are purposefully buffing them and then having trouble with them are you not?

[Triumphant]

30 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn. This isn't about x8 difficulty. This is about the Council specifically. It may not be easy to notice in spawns that are largely Darkwolves and Vampyri, though. It appears to be related to the Vortex and Galaxy updates.

Then here's my advice to you.  Learn to enjoy playing at x6, or x4, or adjust your level setting (or both) until play is challenging, but not frustrating for you.  The game has difficulty settings for a reason.  You aren't being forced to play at any particular difficulty level.   I change my # of foes and character level settings frequently, depending on the type of AT I'm running, how well-slotted it is, and the level I'm playing at.  You can too.

[Bionic_Flea]

32 minutes ago, Eiko-chan said:

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn.

 

Oh!  I had a thought.  Load up on some team inspirations and neutralize those Nazis with extreme prejudice!  Some mez resistance and defense and your pets will eat them up!

 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Eiko-chan said:

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn. This isn't about x8 difficulty. This is about the Council specifically. It may not be easy to notice in spawns that are largely Darkwolves and Vampyri, though. It appears to be related to the Vortex and Galaxy updates.

 

Actually this sounds like an issue with MMs. They are more susceptible to hard and soft controls of all types. Hopefully the devs do something about this eventually. (thought I read something about an eventual MM revamp in the future).

Edited May 11 by golstat2003

[Sanguinesun]

2 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

You are reading this wrong. I quite enjoy playing at x8. I do not enjoy the Council wiping out my pets with a barrage of AoEs in every spawn. This isn't about x8 difficulty. This is about the Council specifically. It may not be easy to notice in spawns that are largely Darkwolves and Vampyri, though. It appears to be related to the Vortex and Galaxy updates.

 

The Archons when killed will do a aoe damage rez that if you get multiple in the same vicinity rezing(and it does happen commonly, it can near or completely wipe toons.

 

For mm's pets its worse if they're on body guard, and as well if they're con'ing much lower that the mobs themselves as often is the case unfortunately due to mm's pets level down dealio.

Edited May 11 by Sanguinesun

[Infinitum]

My usual task force setting - no matter the task force is +1x8 because these days I'm just looking for the journey. I can accomplish the 4/8.but i have learned to slow down the last few years in all aspects of my life because I don't want to miss anything being in a rush to the destination. 

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, Ghost said:

I’m just not sure how true that actually is.

Yes they were given a license to operate a server - but it’s technically still a private server.

They did agree to some things, but still have absolute control over everything.

 

Now, I’m no expert on anything, and may be misinterpreting the whole agreement.

However, what I do know is that they are under no obligation to appease the players.

Companies such as Sony or Blizzard have to make the player base happy or they will lose money and eventually go out of business.

 

 

Like yourself, I'm no expert either. But, let us suppose for the sake of argument you are correct and there is no obligation to appease the players. How do you think that plays out over time? Will it be like Comcast, where droves of people cancel as soon as they can get an alternative, but nobody at Comcast notices because they're just so gigantic, and new people move in the areas they cover every day so it looks on paper like they never lose anyone? 

Or will it be like when ...what was that game...Star Wars Old Republic or something. I remember when that game came out the population certainly seemed to drop. Subscriptions may have been consistently paid, but there were a lot fewer folks playing. 

After the Burn nerf, way back in issue 5 was it? They put an element of fear in it way back when and a lot of folks just stopped their sub and never came back. 
Now, before people think I'm shouting "dooooom!", it's not that bad - - yet. 

The HC Devs WILL continue to read, but they discount opinions at the peril of HC. There's probably a reason or two why they heed the voices of certain folks and not others. One reason might be a good one, and another reason might not be so good. No idea. I'm on the outside, but I do hear whispers now and then about what's going on. So, I'm not too worried about selective direction based on the voices of the chosen few. It's a concern. But it's not an actual worry, if that makes any sense. 

I'm still delighted to enjoy the changes that were made to blasters apparently during the shutdown. I certainly never had 1847.3 HP on any blaster I had before. There's a great deal that's been done that I'm delighted with. 
/enterbasefrompasscode is one of my favorite changes. 
Null the gull, Schweinzer...like those two NPCs aren't visited more often than any other contact, except maybe Maria Jenkins and Tina Mac. (Imperious and Yin and Positron might rank in there somewhere, I guess) 

It's not all doom and gloom. 
But, that freem stuff...great, silly name. But the mechanic itself is annoying. But, I'll soon get my characters to adapt so it doesn't happen anymore. 

[shortguy on indom]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:50 PM, Eiko-chan said:

Where am I supposed to discuss this topic? Why the hell is the Council hard now? Who's fucking idea was this and why is it just allowed to happen!? 

where are these 'new' 6-million dollar council found these days... striga still?  certain contact arcs?

lmk

think it's important to replicate your experience, before commenting.  

Edited May 12 by shortguy on indom
clarity

[Ghost]

8 hours ago, Ukase said:

The HC Devs WILL continue to read, but they discount opinions at the peril of HC. There's probably a reason or two why they heed the voices of certain folks and not others. One reason might be a good one, and another reason might not be so good. No idea. I'm on the outside, but I do hear whispers now and then about what's going on. So, I'm not too worried about selective direction based on the voices of the chosen few. It's a concern. But it's not an actual worry, if that makes any sense. 
 

This part has always fascinated me about this forum.

I remember a couple years ago, a couple posters tried cramming “inner circle” into seemingly everything they posted.

Well, every world leader has trusted advisors.

Every coach/manager of every pro sports franchise has a group of trusted assistants that they take with them everywhere they go.

Every team leader at every company has at least one person they rely on to close deals, make sales, etc.

If you have a group of friends, I’m sure there are one or two that you could count on to have your back, or help you hide a body.

 

So, why should the HC devs be any different? (not necessarily directed at you Ukase)

Why are they expected to operate differently than the rest of society?

Why would they not listen to a few trusted individuals that they feel comfortable with?

Im not saying they only listen to a “select few”.  I got no idea, and honestly don’t care - I love the game, and they’ve not made one single change that bothers me so badly that I want to complain.

Are there things I’d like to see changed or included? Yes, of course.  But I won’t have fits because they’re not.

 

 

Edited May 12 by Ghost

[Ukase]

45 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Well, every world leader has trusted advisors.

Every coach/manager of every pro sports franchise has a group of trusted assistants that they take with them everywhere they go.

Every team leader at every company has at least one person they rely on to close deals, make sales, etc.

If you have a group of friends, I’m sure there are one or two that you could count on to have your back, or help you hide a body.

 

So, why should the HC devs be any different?

You pretty much say here part of what I was thinking. No offense taken at all. 

[Eiko-chan]

4 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

where are these 'new' 6-million dollar council found these days... striga still?  certain contact arcs?

lmk

think it's important to replicate your experience, before commenting.  

Try Provost Marchand's New Praetorians story arc.

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

where are these 'new' 6-million dollar council found these days... striga still?  certain contact arcs?

lmk

think it's important to replicate your experience, before commenting.  

They're found pretty much everywhere you find level 36+ Council. I've been fighting them in paper missions as I try for the next mayhem mission badge.

[Akisan]

On 5/10/2024 at 12:13 PM, Infinitum said:

I think the most balanced enemy group is the crey. I run a lot of crey missions because you literally have a chance to see every damage type in every mob. 

 

So very much have to disagree here.  I could see them being the "most balanced" if they had varied resists at all levels (like Arachnos does), but since all 46+ Crey have the same resists (including 50% Lethal), I have to say they're unfairly punishing towards a common damage type.  (AFAIK, no other common enemy group has uniform resists that high on all mobs - even Malta varies between "only" 30% and 50% resists, depending on mob).  I'd love a balance pass across 46+ Crey, mostly just to spread that 50% resist more evenly with other types (like Cryo tanks having strong Fire/Cold resist, but less Smashing/Lethal).

 

I haven't done much soloing lately (50 mission teams and lowbie duos/trios), but from what I've seen, Council radios still go down pretty quick on a full team.  As ever, though - shapeshifting Archons, Paragon Protectors, etc. are much easier to take down with Holds (so they can't activate MoG).

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Akisan said:

So very much have to disagree here.  I could see them being the "most balanced" if they had varied resists at all levels (like Arachnos does), but since all 46+ Crey have the same resists (including 50% Lethal), I have to say they're unfairly punishing towards a common damage type.  (AFAIK, no other common enemy group has uniform resists that high on all mobs - even Malta varies between "only" 30% and 50% resists, depending on mob).  I'd love a balance pass across 46+ Crey, mostly just to spread that 50% resist more evenly with other types (like Cryo tanks having strong Fire/Cold resist, but less Smashing/Lethal).

 

I wouldn't be opposed to anything you wrote here - but the discussion and my angle was about the damge types enemy groups inflict on us - and let's face it - our ability to output damage - there is really no shortfall there. 

 

Take a look at what I wrote again. 

 

2 hours ago, Akisan said:

  On 5/10/2024 at 2:13 PM, Infinitum said:

I think the most balanced enemy group is the crey. I run a lot of crey missions because you literally have a chance to see every damage type in every mob. 

 

I can see why you said what you said - but it really has no bearing on why I said what I said - mainly because each crey group could include inflicting every damage type in the game on us.  

[shortguy on indom]

9 hours ago, Eiko-chan said:

Try Provost Marchand's New Praetorians story arc.

Testing of lvl 50 Council arc 24.06 in ouro.  Prevost Marchand contact.
1st Arc; 3rd mission; went thru 3 rooms; 2 groups aggroed at a time.
used: lvl 50 defender; no ispirations; Alpha intuition slotted; no other incarnate powers used.

• premise: went thru various notoriety settings to see what's up w/the 'new' council on the same arc same 3rd mission and took some notes.  each time went through first 3 rooms in the arc.  stopped after freeing aurora pena.  then changed notoriety settings, then logged off then back on to do the next difficulty setting.
• notoriety setting/notes:

+0/2 - was too easy.  no difficulty at all.
+0/4 - easy.  now includes equinox adjutant (vamps) and zeniths.
+1/4 - interesting at this point, now includes above plus nightwolf champion and galaxy archons.  lots of Recharge DeBuff.
+2/4 - starting to get fun.  level 53 bosses (purple eclipse war wolf) present a couple lvl 53 LTs also.  getting 'stunned' at this point.  had a 3 minute fight with boss in last room.
+3/4 - now noticeably taking longer to clear rooms.  lots of lvl 54 LTs and lvl 54 bosses (eclipse war wolf).  was knocked down (surprising because have very high knockback protection).  took about 7 or 8 minutes to clear last room. boss fight about same as before.
+4/4 - whole groups are now all comprised of lvl 54.  everything else including times and such seemed very similar to the +3/4 setting.

• overall impression:  jump between +1/4 and +2/4 was quite large in the difficulty department.  +2/4 seemed stronger than usual to me.  all the other notoriety settings seemed on par with what i would expect. (side note, my toon did not seem particularly 'soft' to this enemy except for the surprising -Recharge DeBuff and very unusual knockdown).