Lots of trademark abuse lately

[ZacKing]

10 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Also, having a bit of text right in the character creator might not actually cut down on the amount of obvious violations that zone into Atlas Park everyday, but you know what it might do? Act as a very obvious bit of evidence that Homecoming does take IP violations seriously, and that might make the difference between a suit or a simple warning letter.

 

Very good point.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

See something problematic? Report it and move on.

 

Folks keep suggesting this and yes, that's the correct thing to do.  We all know that.  It's not the point of the thread though. 

 

With that said, I'm personally seeing more and more people every day with clear copies of trademarked Disney/Lucasfilm and Marvel and DC characters running around.  You can bet that they're all getting reported by someone and more than likely, multiple people.  That's a lot of reports and a lot of volunteer GM time wasted on having to review each ticket, generic the costume and bio and then follow up to make sure it isn't changed back again.  Maybe a short note or tooltip in the costume editor might help cut down on the number of tickets coming in for trademark violations because more people will be aware of the trademark rules due to it being more prominent and visible instead of buried in a lengthy CoC.  Again, with very few exceptions, most people I PM about trademark violations respond with a thank you and say they didn't even know this was a rule. 

[Player2]

 

  

 

55 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

All I said was you don't get to say what is or isn't worth the effort for HC and you threw a hissy fit over it.

 

 

It's funny, you don't preface your own statements with stating that you don't get to determine anything; you didn't tell anyone else the same.  I made a statement counter to yours and very clearly indicated that it was my opinion, but you immediately tried to shut me down by telling me that I don't get to determine anything because that is the province of the HC team.  Did I throw a hissy fit or was I just throwing some well-deserved sarcasm your way because you started our interaction by assuming that I misunderstood your post. 

 

I originally chimed in with some commentary about trademark law, which is relevant to the discussion, showing that it can be a confusing territory to navigate.  Of course, at no time have I argued that this should be a grounds for permitting people to do what they want, but you dismissed my comments as irrelevant because HC makes the rules.  Not only do I agree with that, I later explained why that is and should be the case beyond just "its theirs and they can do what they want."

 

But okay, I moved beyond my armchair trademark/copyright lawyering and joined the discussion proper by stating my opinion, which is that I think that most people who make infringing characters know what they're doing is wrong and either act innocent or just don't care, and that "I see it as unnecessary" and questioned why waste resources on something that people are just going to ignore to do what they want anyhow?  That's when you snapped back telling me it's not my place to determine anything...  Did I start out by telling you that it's not your place to determine that this was something we needed?  No, I offered my opinion and you chose to be dismissive of my place in the discussion.  Then you gave me what is clearly your opinion of the whole process of GM policing, stating that they have to spend the time looking at the violation and watching the transgressor's account to ensure it doesn't recur as justification for this idea, but you clearly don't know how much time the policing actually takes and just assume by stating that it seems wasteful of the GMs' time.

 

We both offered anecdotal evidence regarding our experiences with people who commit the infringements, with me seeing a lot of people who know better and just don't care and you claiming that the people you've encountered just don't know because no one would ever try to deceive you on that if they've been called out for doing something they know is wrong, right?  No one would try to play innocent in hopes of not getting reported...

 

It's funny though, how you can point out how you were "only making a suggestion and leaving the decision up to HC" but my expressing an opinion that deserved a rebuke that I don't get to make any decisions because I'm not HC even though I never said "No, we are most definitely not going to do this."  I said drop it, you persisted by saying I can state whatever opinions I want but that you would not drop it because apparently that statement somehow implied to you that I think of you as one of my children or a dog.

 

 

  

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

See something problematic? Report it and move on.

 

 

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

 

Folks keep suggesting this and yes, that's the correct thing to do.  We all know that.  It's not the point of the thread though. 

 

Maybe people keep suggesting it because it is the correct thing to do.  Maybe they keep suggesting it because they disagree with the point of the thread and feel it's just easier to state how the problem should be addressed.  Maybe the point of the thread is pointless because it's an unnecessary bit of extra work which you yourself have stated won't stop people from making infringing characters, only to help enlighten some apparently clueless new players.

 

So here's my final recommendation on the topic:  If you're going to put a note anywhere, it does not have to be part of the game.  Put an additional notice here on the website in big bold letters for people creating new accounts to let them know "DON'T MAKE CHARACTERS WHOSE NAME, LIKENESS, OR STORY VIOLATES TRADEMARK and/or COPYRIGHT LAW AS IT WASTES THE TIME OF OUR DEDICATED VOLUNTEER STAFF WHO MUST REMOVE THEM," and maybe add a link to the EULA and a note to please read the section that specifically pertains to that part of the rules.  They would be put on notice before even entering the game.  Here's a thought:  put it as a note on the game launcher so they must see it every time they load the game but before they even get to the log in screen.  Surely modifying the code for the launcher would be significantly easier than adding a short, ill-defined blurb in a pop up tooltip.

 

There is absolutely no reason this needs to be notes added to character creation or any other screen in the game, especially when such notes are going to be either short and not well defined, requiring people to go back and read the EULA anyway if they want to understand what constitutes infringements... and if you don't give a properly detailed explanation in your tooltip idea, then I submit that there will STILL be people who will claim ignorance because the note wasn't clear enough... like maybe they understood "Don't make Marvel characters" because they heard about Marvel's lawsuit in the past, but why not a fast food mascot like Ronald McDonald or mascot from their favorite breakfast cereal?  And surely movies don't count unless they're superhero movies.

 

Leave the game code alone unless it's to add something of merit like new content, new powers, bug fixes, balancing issues... that sort of thing.  This is just nonsense.

[Haijinx]

17 minutes ago, Player2 said:

 

  

 

 

It's funny, you don't preface your own statements with stating that you don't get to determine anything; you didn't tell anyone else the same.  I made a statement counter to yours and very clearly indicated that it was my opinion, but you immediately tried to shut me down by telling me that I don't get to determine anything because that is the province of the HC team.  Did I throw a hissy fit or was I just throwing some well-deserved sarcasm your way because you started our interaction by assuming that I misunderstood your post. 

 

I originally chimed in with some commentary about trademark law, which is relevant to the discussion, showing that it can be a confusing territory to navigate.  Of course, at no time have I argued that this should be a grounds for permitting people to do what they want, but you dismissed my comments as irrelevant because HC makes the rules.  Not only do I agree with that, I later explained why that is and should be the case beyond just "its theirs and they can do what they want."

 

But okay, I moved beyond my armchair trademark/copyright lawyering and joined the discussion proper by stating my opinion, which is that I think that most people who make infringing characters know what they're doing is wrong and either act innocent or just don't care, and that "I see it as unnecessary" and questioned why waste resources on something that people are just going to ignore to do what they want anyhow?  That's when you snapped back telling me it's not my place to determine anything...  Did I start out by telling you that it's not your place to determine that this was something we needed?  No, I offered my opinion and you chose to be dismissive of my place in the discussion.  Then you gave me what is clearly your opinion of the whole process of GM policing, stating that they have to spend the time looking at the violation and watching the transgressor's account to ensure it doesn't recur as justification for this idea, but you clearly don't know how much time the policing actually takes and just assume by stating that it seems wasteful of the GMs' time.

 

We both offered anecdotal evidence regarding our experiences with people who commit the infringements, with me seeing a lot of people who know better and just don't care and you claiming that the people you've encountered just don't know because no one would ever try to deceive you on that if they've been called out for doing something they know is wrong, right?  No one would try to play innocent in hopes of not getting reported...

 

It's funny though, how you can point out how you were "only making a suggestion and leaving the decision up to HC" but my expressing an opinion that deserved a rebuke that I don't get to make any decisions because I'm not HC even though I never said "No, we are most definitely not going to do this."  I said drop it, you persisted by saying I can state whatever opinions I want but that you would not drop it because apparently that statement somehow implied to you that I think of you as one of my children or a dog.

 

 

  

 

Maybe people keep suggesting it because it is the correct thing to do.  Maybe they keep suggesting it because they disagree with the point of the thread and feel it's just easier to state how the problem should be addressed.  Maybe the point of the thread is pointless because it's an unnecessary bit of extra work which you yourself have stated won't stop people from making infringing characters, only to help enlighten some apparently clueless new players.

 

So here's my final recommendation on the topic:  If you're going to put a note anywhere, it does not have to be part of the game.  Put an additional notice here on the website in big bold letters for people creating new accounts to let them know "DON'T MAKE CHARACTERS WHOSE NAME, LIKENESS, OR STORY VIOLATES TRADEMARK and/or COPYRIGHT LAW AS IT WASTES THE TIME OF OUR DEDICATED VOLUNTEER STAFF WHO MUST REMOVE THEM," and maybe add a link to the EULA and a note to please read the section that specifically pertains to that part of the rules.  They would be put on notice before even entering the game.  Here's a thought:  put it as a note on the game launcher so they must see it every time they load the game but before they even get to the log in screen.  Surely modifying the code for the launcher would be significantly easier than adding a short, ill-defined blurb in a pop up tooltip.

 

There is absolutely no reason this needs to be notes added to character creation or any other screen in the game, especially when such notes are going to be either short and not well defined, requiring people to go back and read the EULA anyway if they want to understand what constitutes infringements... and if you don't give a properly detailed explanation in your tooltip idea, then I submit that there will STILL be people who will claim ignorance because the note wasn't clear enough... like maybe they understood "Don't make Marvel characters" because they heard about Marvel's lawsuit in the past, but why not a fast food mascot like Ronald McDonald or mascot from their favorite breakfast cereal?  And surely movies don't count unless they're superhero movies.

 

Leave the game code alone unless it's to add something of merit like new content, new powers, bug fixes, balancing issues... that sort of thing.  This is just nonsense.

The preface isn't necessary.  It's implied.  It's assumed that other posters understand. It's the way forums have been for the life of the internet. It's all expressed opinion, even posts that have some sort of supporting documentation. 

 

And it's such a common logical fallacy to attack post content based on expressed opinion by ignoring that it is just opinion, that it should have It's own specific definition by now.  

 

We all forget that posts are just opinions though, we get annoyed by some post, read some sort of tone into it and react without thinking.  I know I've done it as well.  

 

[Player2]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The preface isn't necessary.  It's implied.  It's assumed that other posters understand. It's the way forums have been for the life of the internet. It's all expressed opinion, even posts that have some sort of supporting documentation.

 

Oh, I get that.  I was pointing out though that I was singled out for that preface when I presented a differing opinion.  It wasn't necessary to tell me my opinions are just opinions and that I don't get to make any decisions... but it was stated to shut me down rather than really discuss the points I had made.  I got the distinct impression from it that Zac wanted to talk at me rather than with me, as if his opinions were somehow more valid than my own.

[Player2]

3 hours ago, ZacKing said:

I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me.  And again, I'm not your child or your pet dog, so no, you don't get to tell me to deal with anything. 

 

Because that's what discussion forums are for.  It's not an all or nothing thing.  We as the players can make suggestions and maybe the HC folk will take those suggestions into consideration.  We as players with differing points of view can discuss an idea and provide our perspectives on whether the idea has merit or not.  That can be useful for the HC team.  Allowing discussion and getting multiple points of view is important.  Trying to shout down others who disagree with you isn't helpful.

 

you're more than welcome to have your own thoughts and opinions and share them here just like the rest of us.  No one has suggested otherwise.

 

Player2:  **states obvious opinion**

 

18 hours ago, ZacKing said:

For starters, it isn't for you to decide

 

So, again, I say that none of this is for you or anyone else to decide what would be helpful, either.  So play nice or don't play at all.

 

[Player2]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

This is my Tanker, Paladia...

 

 

Nice costume.  Rad/Dark tanker?

[OverkillEngine]

14 hours ago, Apogee said:

next up on "Third rail topics on the CoX forums" we revisit the Name Purge process once more, follow by the age old question, "is Regen working fine?"

 

Is Fighting Pool off of cooldown again yet?

[Tachstar]

 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

I go to sleep for a few hours and we are arguing about arguing now?

 

 

*Edit:  Not you, Tachstar, those are pretty funny and a great demonstration of parody.*

Edited May 31, 2024 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

Nice costume.  Rad/Dark tanker?

 

She is indeed. She's been a pretty satisfying play so far (low 40s).

[Maelwys]

55 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I go to sleep for a few hours

You mean you're not secretly Will Ferrell in a spotty red-and-yellow onesie...? 🤯

[UltraAlt]

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

That wasn't set in the Marvel Universe, it was set in the Star Wars universe.

 

Who said it was set in the Marvel Universe?

 

I was replying to "Seems weird to have them in a comic book universe." in reference to Jedi and Sith.

They have been in comic books and not just those produced by Marvel.

 

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

And, those comics were terrible. 

 

When I was a kid, I thought they were great fun.

That was a long time ago and comics have changed drastically since then.

I agree the the art was often subpar, but there were some decent artist in there from time-to-time - they mostly did one-shot appearances as I recall. I really liked the Bill Mantlo issue even though it was far and beyond one of the issues way out of the norms for a Star Wars "Universe" story.

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

I go to sleep for a few hours and we are arguing about arguing now?

 

 

Impossible!

Not in the Homecoming forums!

 

oh, wait, what day is this....

 

 

[biostem]

7 hours ago, ZacKing said:

With that said, I'm personally seeing more and more people every day with clear copies of trademarked Disney/Lucasfilm and Marvel and DC characters running around.  You can bet that they're all getting reported by someone and more than likely, multiple people.  That's a lot of reports and a lot of volunteer GM time wasted on having to review each ticket, generic the costume and bio and then follow up to make sure it isn't changed back again.  Maybe a short note or tooltip in the costume editor might help cut down on the number of tickets coming in for trademark violations because more people will be aware of the trademark rules due to it being more prominent and visible instead of buried in a lengthy CoC.  Again, with very few exceptions, most people I PM about trademark violations respond with a thank you and say they didn't even know this was a rule. 

I think you are being too generous in assuming that those creating obvious ripoffs don't know that what they are doing is wrong/against the ToS;  At this stage of the game, and given the relative ease with which one can create a HC account, I'm inclined to believe that they just don't care...

[ZacKing]

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

It's funny, you don't preface your own statements with stating that you don't get to determine anything; you didn't tell anyone else the same.  I made a statement counter to yours and very clearly indicated that it was my opinion, but you immediately tried to shut me down by telling me that I don't get to determine anything because that is the province of the HC team.  Did I throw a hissy fit or was I just throwing some well-deserved sarcasm your way because you started our interaction by assuming that I misunderstood your post. 

 

The same does apply to me just as it does to you and everyone else here.  I don't get to determine what the HC team does or doesn't work on.  None of us do.  That's up to HC to set their own priorities.  Does that make you feel better?

 

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

I originally chimed in with some commentary about trademark law, which is relevant to the discussion, showing that it can be a confusing territory to navigate.  Of course, at no time have I argued that this should be a grounds for permitting people to do what they want, but you dismissed my comments as irrelevant because HC makes the rules.  Not only do I agree with that, I later explained why that is and should be the case beyond just "its theirs and they can do what they want."

 

Discussing opinions on the nuances of trademark law via Google search isn't relevant.  Whether or not a character created here on these servers is or isn't a trademark violation isn't up to us or our opinion.  Can any of us generic another players character?  No, we can't.  HC can.  You could create a character here that were it taken to court would win a trademark violation case brought by Marvel.  Who's going to pay for the legal fees for that?  What you or I or anyone else feels is a violation or not is irrelevant.  It's up to HC to make the call based on what their comfortable with and that fits within their established rules.  It is their server and it is their rules.  That's fact. 

 

6 hours ago, Player2 said:

Then you gave me what is clearly your opinion of the whole process of GM policing, stating that they have to spend the time looking at the violation and watching the transgressor's account to ensure it doesn't recur as justification for this idea, but you clearly don't know how much time the policing actually takes and just assume by stating that it seems wasteful of the GMs' time.

 

It's not my opinion on the process though.  GMs have said this is what they do with these kinds of tickets.  Are you suggesting that when a ticket comes in for a trademark violation, they don't even bother looking at the character?  They just hit the magic generic button and that's it?  They don't do any kind of follow up or account flagging to make sure the violating character isn't just recreated?  You're right, I don't know how much time is involved with these tickets, but neither do you.  Only HC knows that.  Based on my experience and what I'm seeing, there's a lot of trademark violations running around lately, most likely with multiple reports coming from multiple players.  Seems to me that this is something that might be helped by adding a simple bit of text into the costume editor letting people know copying trademarked characters isn't allowed.

 

6 hours ago, Player2 said:

Maybe people keep suggesting it because it is the correct thing to do. 

 

It is the correct thing to do.  Read what I wrote again.  You've missed the point of the thread yet again.  If adding a note in the editor can help alleviate the problem and free up some of the time that our GMs are graciously volunteering for us, maybe it's worth it.

 

6 hours ago, Player2 said:

We both offered anecdotal evidence regarding our experiences with people who commit the infringements, with me seeing a lot of people who know better and just don't care and you claiming that the people you've encountered just don't know because no one would ever try to deceive you on that if they've been called out for doing something they know is wrong, right?  No one would try to play innocent in hopes of not getting reported...

 

I'm curious, what makes your experience more valid than mine here?  How exactly do you know these people "know better" and aren't deceiving you?

 

4 hours ago, Player2 said:

but it was stated to shut me down rather than really discuss the points I had made.  I got the distinct impression from it that Zac wanted to talk at me rather than with me, as if his opinions were somehow more valid than my own.

 

This isn't true and you know it.  I'm not trying to shut you down or prevent you from sharing your opinion.  Shall I go back and re-quote you where you've told me to "drop it"?  Who is trying to shut who down again?

 

4 hours ago, Player2 said:

So play nice or don't play at all.

 

Fourth time now -  I'm not your child or your pet dog.  I'll continue to post, thanks.  You're more than welcome to continue to do the same. 

[ZacKing]

12 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think you are being too generous in assuming that those creating obvious ripoffs don't know that what they are doing is wrong/against the ToS;  At this stage of the game, and given the relative ease with which one can create a HC account, I'm inclined to believe that they just don't care...

 

How do you know that for certain?  Supposedly there's a lot of new players coming in all the time, many of whom are used to playing other games where skins of trademarked characters are readily available for free.  If you want to have such a negative view of others, knock yourself out.  I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. 

[Maelwys]

10 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Quote

I think you are being too generous in assuming that those creating obvious ripoffs don't know that what they are doing is wrong/against the ToS;  At this stage of the game, and given the relative ease with which one can create a HC account, I'm inclined to believe that they just don't care...

How do you know that for certain?  Supposedly there's a lot of new players coming in all the time, many of whom are used to playing other games where skins of trademarked characters are readily available for free.

Case in point...

The NCSoft announcement and positive press HC has gotten recently has 100% brought more newbies into the fold - including those who want to play a clone of/homage to their favourite childhood superperson.

I imagine there's a mix of "don't care" and "not aware" in play here; and so whilst it's unlikely to be a silver bullet, having the odd in-game reminder might at least lessen the numbers that our friendly neighbourhood GMs have to deal with a tad.

I definitely remember a lot of questionable spidermen running around back on Live...
 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Maelwys

[ZemX]

24 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think you are being too generous in assuming that those creating obvious ripoffs don't know that what they are doing is wrong/against the ToS;  At this stage of the game, and given the relative ease with which one can create a HC account, I'm inclined to believe that they just don't care...

 

It's entirely plausible a lot of people just don't know.  A big reason is that it's legal to cosplay their favorite characters in real life, so they might assume that's all they are actually doing here.   It isn't, but it's not like we're all copyright lawyers around here.

 

There are also plenty of fan-made mods for other games that allow people to play other copyright IP characters in their single-player games.   So they might be conditioned to think it's okay when it's not, and it's just that nobody has bothered to go after some rando modder.  Only the big projects seem to get C&Ds.

[biostem]

17 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

many of whom are used to playing other games where skins of trademarked characters are readily available for free.

So you genuinely believe that if you asked people, (at least those who fall outside of the "don't care" category), why they created an exact copy of [character X], they'd honestly answer that since they were able to play [character X] on some other Marvel or DC game, that it's ok in 3rd party titles?

[Excraft]

14 hours ago, Player2 said:

I agree with you.  I'm saying, it's a determination that can only be made in court by a judge after lawyers for both sides have made their case.  It's far better for HC to set rules to prevent it from having to go to court.

 

HC has set the rules for access to their servers.  What the existing laws say or don't say doesn't matter here.  It's a private server with their own set of rules and terms that you must agree to abide by in order to access the service.  Trademark issues here are never going to go to court because HC has final say on what is or isn't allowed.  If you really want to be that guy who decides to take a trademark case for your character to court and incur all those legal fees and expenses for HC, good luck to you.

[Excraft]

5 hours ago, Player2 said:

Oh, I get that.  I was pointing out though that I was singled out for that preface when I presented a differing opinion.  It wasn't necessary to tell me my opinions are just opinions and that I don't get to make any decisions... but it was stated to shut me down rather than really discuss the points I had made.  I got the distinct impression from it that Zac wanted to talk at me rather than with me, as if his opinions were somehow more valid than my own.

 

No one is persecuting you.  No one is trying to shut you down or tell you that you can't post your thoughts or that their opinion is more valid than yours.  Just being honest, it seems very clear to me that you're the one trying to shout others down. 

 

6 hours ago, Player2 said:

There is absolutely no reason this needs to be notes added to character creation or any other screen in the game, especially when such notes are going to be either short and not well defined, requiring people to go back and read the EULA anyway if they want to understand what constitutes infringements... and if you don't give a properly detailed explanation in your tooltip idea, then I submit that there will STILL be people who will claim ignorance because the note wasn't clear enough... like maybe they understood "Don't make Marvel characters" because they heard about Marvel's lawsuit in the past, but why not a fast food mascot like Ronald McDonald or mascot from their favorite breakfast cereal?  And surely movies don't count unless they're superhero movies.

 

I disagree.  I think @PeregrineFalcon brought up a very strong argument for this idea in that it's a very clear sign that HC takes copyrights and trademarks seriously in the event of any potential lawsuits.  That in addition to helping to take at least some of the work from trademark violation tickets off the GMs plates makes this worthwhile.  Also, a brief sentence or two in the character creator doesn't need to be detailed and descriptive and provide exact, detailed instructions and examples of what is or isn't allowed.  Simply stating that copying trademarked characters is not permitted and it is up to HC to determine is sufficient.  The text could even include a link to the CoC if possible. 

 

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

So you genuinely believe that if you asked people, (at least those who fall outside of the "don't care" category), why they created an exact copy of [character X], they'd honestly answer that since they were able to play [character X] on some other Marvel or DC game, that it's ok in 3rd party titles?

 

I've had people say they didn't know about the no trademarks rule here as well.  I don't know about you, but there are tons of games out there with skins for Marvel, DC, Disney, Image, Star Trek, Star Wars etc.  freely available.  Heck, even in STO there was a Ferengi in Q's Winter Wonderland that looked spot on for Yoda - including speech pattern - handing out lightsaber-like weapons. 

 

[Excraft]

7 hours ago, Player2 said:

Then you gave me what is clearly your opinion of the whole process of GM policing

 

It wasn't an opinion, rather what a GM posted in this very thread.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Excraft

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

The amount of time it takes between receiving an IP violation complaint and acting on it can vary based on numerous factors:

 

1.  How many GMs are available at the time the complaint comes in?

2.  How cooperative our tools are being?  Sometimes we can look up a player costume and it populates instantly, other times it takes minutes, sometimes it glitches and never populates.  

3.  How obvious is the violation?  Making a blue and red character in tights with a red cape and an S on their chest, named SUPERMAN is easy.  Sometimes the IP being violated is more obscure.  Sometimes it has become public domain.  Sometimes it's a judgment call as to whether its parody or copy.  We sometimes research the IP to look at images or to see if there is any registered trademark, etc.  

4.  If the GM has any doubts or questions they will seek the opinion of other GMs and Lead GMs before acting.

 

All that generally happens in less than a day.  But if it's timed just right it can happen in a few minutes.

Edited May 31, 2024 by GM_GooglyMoogly

[battlewraith]

This thread reads like a bunch of retirees having a debate at their condo association meeting.

 

1. Someone let their dog poop on my lawn, it's clearly against the bylaws!

2. What do you want us to do about it?

3. PUT A SIGN THERE SO THAT THEY KNOW IT'S WRONG!