Poison: does it work?

[DreadShinobi]

Corr cold 54% resistance debuff before procs

defender cold 60% resistance debuff before procs

defender poison 65% resistance debuff before procs

 

You're missing the elements of uptime and stacking.

 

Poison's debuffs don't self-stack and have 100% uptime, so that's easy - your numbers are accurate.

 

Cold has two debuffs. One - Sleet - can self-stack and be made overlapping. The other - Heat Loss - takes considerable effort to get 100% uptime. If you've actually managed to do so, then you'll have 30% from Heat Loss and 60% from the two stacking Sleets for a total of 90%. (Note: Storm Summoning also has -resist debuffs figures in this range due to the self-stacking issue).

If you're going to bring up stacking sleets then you have to mention it takes ~19 seconds before youre done casting the second with a full IO build. Also keep in mind my main years ago was a fire/cold corr.

The biggest difference between cold and poison on an overall effectiveness level is this:

Cold has shielding and endurance buffing

Cold has better aoe debuffing and -regen

 

I still consider Cold one of the best sets in the game alongside kinetics. WITH THAT SAID, poison can be very competitive with it, for reasons I've already listed in this thread. Poison debuffs are always available and VG is a toggle. The biggest thing to keep in mind about playing poison is you spend a lot of time spitting envenom and while you don't need to weaken everything, its cast time is longer. Poison is honestly fantastic on defenders. Resistance debuffs are amazing with damage procs which defenders need to use. Defender mods affect everything poison has to offer, and tbh the heal is solid for team healing by itself.

[Turric]

I am currently running a poison / archery defender and I can say with confidence that it is my most ridiculous character thus far. I do one thing well, which is debuff bosses, and that has been stated already. The heal is alright, average at best, but with no ability to heal myself, it loses points in my book. I actually look forward to when I heal someone or rez them. I clap myself on the back and say, "You did a thing, and you're not merely a passenger in this group until the AV fight". The one thing I do do well is very unsatisfying because it is very difficult to tell, especially in group combat, who is choking on my Envenom and Weaken abilities. It would have been nice if there was some animation, like the actual choking sequence from Mutagen, or perhaps the target turned green. Furthermore, of all the defender power sets, I feel like there was a missed opportunity with Poison. It should have had some actual damaging component to it that made up for its otherwise lackluster performance. It is poison after all! One of the abilities should have been a pretty effective DoT. Like something that makes the set stand out different than other support powers, something that makes the player wonder whether it is really support at all or just a disguised DPS set.

[Darkir]

Does it work? Yes. Just not well in relation to every other set out there. It just doesn't compare to cold, dark, storm, or rad. Poisons debuffs are nice, but I'd rather have a cold or dark defender with me every time. Heat loss and sleet are superior to venomous gas and envenom in most ways.

 

The biggest problem is that envenoms AoE is so confoundedly small, just give it a 15 radius and it'd be great, but a radius of 8 just makes me sad inside. It's so confusing when you look at other sets that have stacking debuffs and other useful tools. Then poison brings no defensive/survival powers and then to top it off, there is no self  healing power or good team buffs. Which essentially means in practice that you'll want to pair it with water or dark blast in order to be somewhat self sustainable and this all just boils down to making poison feel really limited. 

 

You can make anything in this game work and feel powerful, but you'll need to work at it more with poison. (Then you look at time manipulation and you basically become a tanking God without even trying on a defender.)

[You]

One other I would like to do to improve on is to have a clearer visual effect on the boundary of VG. I don’t want to stand too close in a melee fight yet not too far to be out of range. It is so hard to get it right...

 

otherwise I personally do not mind changing to a cast on ally power like that of MM. 

[Turric]

19 hours ago, You said:

One other I would like to do to improve on is to have a clearer visual effect on the boundary of VG. I don’t want to stand too close in a melee fight yet not too far to be out of range. It is so hard to get it right...

 

otherwise I personally do not mind changing to a cast on ally power like that of MM. 

Absolutely! I've played with it over and over so I have a kind of good idea, and there is a definite sound effect, but that is only good when solo. Truthfully, I am finding VG to be rather less than useful. And the endurance drain on it is pretty high for something like that.

[kiramon]

Well since you have nothing else to add to the fight, you might as well stick with VG on... literally like what else are you going to do? I have like 4 powers from the primary on my cor- who is SUPER fun by the way, but mostly cuz she gets to blast like a blaster while pretending to be a corruptor... 

 

and if the range is 8 yards melee is like what, 7 yards? Pretty much wont have to worry about being too close, ever... lol just run up to things lol

 

the sad part is it’s not even a huge debuff or anything... it’s really weak. Poison needs a redesign and I’d be happy to do it for them 🙂 🙂

 

 

[Darkir]

7 hours ago, kiramon said:

Well since you have nothing else to add to the fight, you might as well stick with VG on... literally like what else are you going to do? I have like 4 powers from the primary on my cor- who is SUPER fun by the way, but mostly cuz she gets to blast like a blaster while pretending to be a corruptor... 

 

and if the range is 8 yards melee is like what, 7 yards? Pretty much wont have to worry about being too close, ever... lol just run up to things lol

 

the sad part is it’s not even a huge debuff or anything... it’s really weak. Poison needs a redesign and I’d be happy to do it for them 🙂 🙂

 

 

I support this post.

 

"This message brought to you by CoH players for a better poison set."

[Hjarki]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:05 AM, Darkir said:

Does it work? Yes. Just not well in relation to every other set out there. It just doesn't compare to cold, dark, storm, or rad. Poisons debuffs are nice, but I'd rather have a cold or dark defender with me every time. Heat loss and sleet are superior to venomous gas and envenom in most ways.

I actually don't like Heat Loss all that much. Due to the long recharge, it's really only useful in a boss fight. Due to the hit roll required, there is tremendous potential variance on its effects. If you miss with Heat Loss, that's like not having the power for half the fight. From my perspective, Heat Loss fits into the 'good in theory' category of powers that seem really great until you start trying to use them and realize they're a lot more limited than they initially appear.

 

In contrast, Envenom/Weaken do the same basic job as Heat Loss and do it much, much better. They may have a narrow radius, but the radius on Heat Loss doesn't matter because you can't realistically use it on trash spawns due to the recharge. You can miss with Envenom/Weaken... at which point you just use them again because they're recharged by the time you notice the boss isn't debuffed.

 

Venomous Gas is statistically weaker than Sleet, but it's hard to directly compare the two because they're used in such a different fashion. To a large extent, the challenge in using Poison is figuring out a way you can stand in the middle of everything and not die horribly. In contrast, the challenge with an effect like Sleet tends to revolve around preventing enemies from fleeing. However, the advantage of Venomous Gas is that you don't need to do anything before you unload on a spawn. All you need to do is walk into the middle and start blowing things up. This tends to prevent spawns from falling apart before you can get your licks in.

 

Tar Patch is simply a weaker version of Sleet/Freezing Rain - it has a too-long duration/recharge.

 

Radiation is generally weaker than the others. Toggle debuffs are nice for AV/GM - they can't run away from them and they can't miss - but less useful for trash spawns where you need to pick the right target rather than the right location. They also don't stack, so they're less potent than the field debuffs. Radiation has the best -regen of the sets you've mentioned, but as damage ramps up -regen becomes less important (and damage has ramped up a lot since the heyday of Ill/Rad).

 

From my perspective, Poison look like so:

• Alkaloid. Half the reason you want to play Poison as a Defender is so that you never have to see the incredibly dopey animation on this power. Otherwise, I guess it fits nicely into the 'Ally heals people never use' category.
• Envenom/Weaken. The rapid recharge covers up any issues I might have with their single target/small radius nature.
• Neurotoxic Breath. My suspicion is that they were sitting around the office trying to make the worst possible power. "Non-damaging speed/recharge debuff?" "Yeah! And let's make it a Cone!"
• Elixir of Life. In general, rez powers are useless unless you can use them without dead allies to stun/-regen debuff.
• Antidote. On the plus side, you can mule Resists sets in it. On the minus side, I've never seen anyone use it on an Electric Armor Tanker so I'm guessing they're not taking the power.
• Paralytic Poison. You can mule Hold sets. No, piling Hold procs into an otherwise non-damaging power is not a substitute for a real single target nuke.
• Poison Trap/Venomous Gas. The reason you're forced to spend a billion influence on Winter sets.

[Frosticus]

I strongly recommend the power amplifier that gives mez protection. At least until you solve your own mez protection issues via incarnates and/or powerpools.

 

That aside, if poison isn't performing well for you then it is likely because you are taking the wrong approach. It plays far more like kinetics than it does any other debuff set. ie fast, in your face, and aggressive.

The set definitely has some issues, but imo it surpasses just about everything in terms of performance in many scenarios. Just depends what kind of performance you seek. 

Take a look at the poison guide I wrote up it may be a value in gaining a different perspective. While it has some similarities to the other debuff sets like rad, or dark - it plays nothing like them. 

 

 

[r0y]

The only defender I actually like to play (so far) is my Poison/Dark.  Dark Blast is amazing on a defender, decent/exotic damage and very customizable (for themes, etc).  It also gives a decent heal in siphon life, but with a Poison/Dark, you're not going to be getting hit much at all.  So survivable.

 

A very fun toon to play, either solo or in groups.  Even in incarnate trials, I can run into a large mob and start immob/debuff/damaging them.  Tentacles, nightfall, etc.  I did not bother with resistances, instead I soft-capped S/L/E and have a decent heal that is a useful part of my attack chain (healing 17% and still doing better damage than Dark Blast, at least).

 

Also, the Poison Trap *is* a crap power, UNTIL YOU PROC IT UP!  The original reply earlier in this thread completely missed this.  The downside (in my build) is you have to be on the ground to place it (like an ouroboros portal).  Crappy oversight, but there it is.  I just made a macro that detoggles hover/fly and places it.  I then have to re-toggle my hover/fly.  Other than that, it's a great power.

 

Also proc-out Blackstar... 

 

Here is Ursyla's build:

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Ursyla-v4: Level 50 Natural Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Dark Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- ShlBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(A), ShlBrk-Acc/Rchg(7), ShlBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), AchHee-ResDeb%(15)
Level 1: Dark Blast -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(9), Thn-Acc/Dmg(23), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 2: Weaken -- CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(3), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(13), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Moonbeam -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(19)
Level 6: Hover -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(9), Srn-EndRdx/Fly(23), Srn-Fly(40)
Level 8: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Antidote -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Afterburner -- Flight-I(A)
Level 16: Tenebrous Tentacles -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(17), PstBls-Dam%(17), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(34), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37)
Level 18: Tough -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(19), GldArm-3defTpProc(43)
Level 20: Night Fall -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(34), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), PstBls-Dam%(42)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(29)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- Erd-%Dam(A), ScrDrv-Dam%(27), Obl-%Dam(27), UnbCns-Dam%(45), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46), NrnSht-Dam%(46)
Level 28: Alkaloid -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(29), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(45), Prv-Heal/Rchg(31), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(31), Prv-Absorb%(31)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(45)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- UndDfn-DefDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), UndDfn-DefDeb(33), UndDfn-DefDeb/EndRdx(33), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(33), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(37), DmpSpr-ToHitDeb(37)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(36)
Level 38: Blackstar -- Erd-%Dam(A), ScrDrv-Dam%(39), Obl-%Dam(39), Arm-Dam%(39), CldSns-%Dam(40), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(40)
Level 41: Life Drain -- Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), HrmHln-Heal(48), HrmHln-Heal/EndRdx(50)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(48), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(50), GssSynFr--ToHit(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42), Pnc-Heal/+End(48)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(7)
------------

Without incarnate or accolade powers, here are the totals:

Edited May 24, 2020 by r0y

[Force Redux]

Sounds fun @r0y, I'll have to put this in my future alt list!

[kiramon]

I’ll stress this again- the best thing about poison is that it lets you play your primary (or secondary as defender) so much more while being able to contribute with poison.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by kiramon

[Turric]

On 5/20/2020 at 12:54 AM, kiramon said:

Well since you have nothing else to add to the fight, you might as well stick with VG on... literally like what else are you going to do?

 

 

I did, but I am still unhappy about it.

[lightpunch]

So like several people in this thread have said, I got a concept for a poison character stuck in my head, and even though I'd read all the ways in which poison is just subpar/outmatched, I had to roll it. I've been having a terrible streak the past week or two where all the character concepts I come up with just don't result in a build that works to my or anyone else's satisfaction (looking at you, psychic blast, mind control, pain dom), so I needed to just try this one. I've been interested in Beam Rifle for a while, its -regen seemed like it would help patch up one of poison's holes, and it worked with my tech/science-aided killer-for-hire concept. This build is definitely pricey, -- capped for S/L/E/Ranged defense, hasten 10 seconds from perma -- but I need some characters to actually spend inf on anyway, and even though I'm early in my playthrough of the character, it's pretty fun so far!

 

I also know Experimentation isn't amazing but it seemed fun and went with my concept.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Mr. Misery: Level 50 Science Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Beam Rifle
Power Pool: Experimentation
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom

• (A) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
• (7) Analyze Weakness - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
• (9) Analyze Weakness - Accuracy/Recharge

Level 1: Single Shot

• (A) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage
• (3) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (3) Superior Defender's Bastion - Damage/Recharge
• (5) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (5) Superior Defender's Bastion - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (7) Superior Defender's Bastion - Recharge/Chance for Minor PBAoE Heal

Level 2: Weaken

• (A) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff
• (19) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/ToHitDebuff
• (48) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Recharge
• (48) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
• (50) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (50) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage

Level 4: Toxic Dart

• (A) Decimation - Chance of Build Up

Level 6: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (9) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 8: Boxing

• (A) Empty

Level 10: Disintegrate

• (A) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
• (11) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/RechargeTime
• (11) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (13) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (13) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime

Level 12: Speed of Sound

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 14: Tough

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
• (15) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
• (15) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance
• (17) Impervium Armor - Psionic Resistance

Level 16: Aim

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 18: Neurotoxic Breath

• (A) Pacing of the Turtle - Accuracy/Endurance
• (19) Pacing of the Turtle - Endurance/Recharge/Slow

Level 20: Lancer Shot

• (A) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage
• (21) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/RechargeTime
• (21) Superior Vigilant Assault - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (25) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (27) Superior Vigilant Assault - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (27) Superior Vigilant Assault - RechargeTime/PBAoE +Absorb

Level 22: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (23) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
• (25) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance

Level 24: Corrosive Vial

• (A) Annihilation - Chance for Res Debuff
• (33) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
• (33) Artillery - Damage/Endurance
• (33) Artillery - Damage/Recharge
• (34) Artillery - Endurance/Recharge/Range

Level 26: Poison Trap

• (A) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (36) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (36) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (36) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown

Level 28: Penetrating Ray

• (A) Executioner's Contract - Accuracy/Damage
• (29) Executioner's Contract - Damage/Endurance
• (29) Executioner's Contract - Damage/Interrupt
• (31) Executioner's Contract - Damage/Range
• (31) Executioner's Contract - Damage/Recharge
• (31) Executioner's Contract - Disorient Bonus

Level 30: Elixir of Life

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 32: Venomous Gas

• (A) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge/Endurance
• (43) Dark Watcher's Despair - Recharge/Endurance
• (46) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Endurance
• (46) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff
• (46) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff

Level 35: Piercing Beam

• (A) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage
• (37) Artillery - Damage/Endurance
• (37) Artillery - Damage/Recharge
• (37) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (40) Artillery - Accuracy/Recharge/Range
• (48) Artillery - Endurance/Recharge/Range

Level 38: Overcharge

• (A) Artillery - Damage/Endurance
• (39) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage
• (39) Artillery - Damage/Recharge
• (39) Artillery - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (40) Artillery - Accuracy/Recharge/Range
• (40) Artillery - Endurance/Recharge/Range

Level 41: Scorpion Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (42) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
• (42) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge
• (42) Red Fortune - Endurance
• (43) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (43) Red Fortune - Defense

Level 44: Stealth

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (45) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
• (45) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 47: Focused Accuracy

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 49: Adrenal Booster

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (50) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty

Level 1: Quick Form 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by lightpunch

[srmalloy]

On 5/24/2020 at 12:11 PM, r0y said:

Here is Ursyla's build:

There seems to be something broken in the build, the download link, or in how Mids loads the build; it has Afterburner at 14, when it's an autopower in the pop-up tray and unslottable; it causes all of the powers taken after it to show incorrectly when moused over -- all the powers show the power below them (including their slotting), except for Poison Trap, which shows as Afterburner.

[Ringo]

That build is 3 years old, back when Afterburner wasn't an auto power

[srmalloy]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:39 PM, Ringo said:

That build is 3 years old, back when Afterburner wasn't an auto power

It still breaks the power display in Mids when it's imported. If it was built with Afterburner as a separate power, then Mids should account for that and not mislabel all subsequent power picks, or just identify Afterburner as no longer being a valid power pick and leave the slot empty.