New Group Fly suggestion

[Wavicle]

Change the way Group Fly works. Group Fly when toggled on would:

A) Make you and all YOUR pets fly.

B) Provide teammates with a server tray power that when toggled would make them and all THEIR pets fly.

 

I would also increase the range by a lot to make it easier not to drop people, and maybe provide a buffer period of 15 seconds after you leave the AoE but the power persists.

[Seldom]

I had a similar idea I posted a while back. In today's game granting flight, particularly when they are literally handing out jet-packs, is passé. That said, it's still a favorite for my masterminds, especially post 'minions never drop' patch. I love it, but it's still the only power I have to warn folks about, and one of the 2 that people will tell others to turn off. I get it, not everyone likes to fly, and it does mess with some powers, but BOY is it fun to see flying demons/zombies/robots/doggos/hoodlums.

I am in favor of anything to make it less intrusive, and also more pet-friendly!

[Glacier Peak]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

A) Make you and all YOUR pets fly.

With this change, the Flight Power Pool would have three powers that make the player Fly.

 

Hover, Fly, Group Fly.

 

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

B) Provide teammates with a server tray power that when toggled would make them and all THEIR pets fly.

How? With the way this is written, I could keep opening and closing another player's popup tray and they would have to move out of range, which you want to increase. 

 

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I would also increase the range by a lot to make it easier not to drop people, and maybe provide a buffer period of 15 seconds after you leave the AoE but the power persists.

This already occurs. Group Fly passengers can move more than 60ft away from the Group Fly player and they have 10 seconds. 

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

With this change, the Flight Power Pool would have three powers that make the player Fly.

 

Hover, Fly, Group Fly.

 

How? With the way this is written, I could keep opening and closing another player's popup tray and they would have to move out of range, which you want to increase. 

 

This already occurs. Group Fly passengers can move more than 60ft away from the Group Fly player and they have 10 seconds. 

 

I can imagine there would be some details to work out. 

[mistagoat]

Regular fly should just extend to the owners pets and Group Fly should be eliminated in favor of anything else. MMs are the only folks who get any use out of it so lets not increase the end consumption and just give them a freebee here. Every toon in the game gets a free jet pack just for hitting level 2 so if the MM ever has a need for just themselves to fly but not their pets they can use that free jetpack.

 

Speaking for myself, I have never and will never need, want or benefit from another player bestowing flight upon me. It's an antiquated power that doesn't fit in the modern game.

 

Yes, yes, turn it off at Null, I know, but that doesn't help at all when you're on a TF with an old toon that didn't select that option and now you're a hover tank with no control and it's gonna be a miserable TF. It's a troll power with an awful opt out mechanic. I understand the game limitations and why it's done at Null but that sure doesn't make it convenient.  The never ending stream of posts that are all variations of "how to make group fly not the most obnoxious power in the game" is proof that there is a real issue. 

 

[tidge]

On 8/26/2024 at 8:46 PM, Glacier Peak said:

With this change, the Flight Power Pool would have three powers that make the player Fly.

 

Hover, Fly, Group Fly.

 

I don't understand this point. Currently IIRC Group Fly already allows a player character Flight. (It's not great, but it does)

 

Before I proceed, I want to note that I have no problems with the way Group Fly works. I am unconvinced that there is any measurable amount of suggestions to change it that don't derive from a player who either didn't know how to turn it off (via Null the Gull), didn't remember to turn it off (if it upsets them) or resented having to turn it off.

 

Frankly, the three powers that all offer some form of "flight", plus a power that adds "control" and "speed" is one of the things that I find odd about the Flight pool. From a historical context, I can understand why the pool is the way it is, but that doesn't mean I feel good about it it. I think the issue with the Flight pool is more subtle than players feeling griefed about Group Fly.

 

My understanding of the historical context is that the original Devs were worried that if Fly was "too good" that there would be a very strong preference among players to take the Flight pool over all other travel powers. Part of this is simply navigating zones, part of this is a concern that "hover-blasting" would make the game "too easy". As a result, side from a somewhat common circumstance of including an attack power in the pool  (Air Superiority), the first available flying power (Hover, a toggle) is pretty much most valuable on instanced maps as it is generally harder to "hover blast" on typical maps, and the complete lack of flying speed is less noticeable. Fly (another toggle) was established as the set's "travel power", with the (my choice of words) gimping of "control" (unless Hover is also toggled on) and travel speed (see original compromise/fear among travel pool options above). 

 

Group Fly is yet another toggle... it hasn't been helpful to (other) PCs for a long time (travel powers can be picked sooner, temp flight powers have long existed) but remains useful for henchmen/pet ATs. Evasive Maneuvers is a fourth toggle that mitigates (somewhat) the gimping (my word) of Fly (one of those other toggles) in terms of control and speed.

 

TL;DR: Four toggles is too many! As a practical matter, if a player is running the flight pool (with or without Group Fly) at least three powers must be toggled on to get the full benefits of what Flight offers, with a fourth toggle for Group Fly. On the surface this may not seem completely unreasonable, but with so many other travel powers offering combinations of travel effects (superspeed, teleport, flying) with a single toggle... it strikes me as lackluster that Flight requires as many as four toggles and all it gets is an occasional Afterburner.

 

These toggles take up shelf space in the trays! My own suggestion? Make Evasive Manuevers an auto power (no endurance cost), and make it selectable starting at level 20.

[Ukase]

I would welcome the option to disable/enable group fly in Menu-options, rather than visiting Null. 

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

I would welcome the option to disable/enable group fly in Menu-options, rather than visiting Null. 

Menu options don't grant players powers and it took a power to disable the effects of Group Fly on others.

[srmalloy]

10 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't understand this point. Currently IIRC Group Fly already allows a player character Flight. (It's not great, but it does)

The problem is that it doesn't allow a character to fly; it forces them to fly. You don't get the option; if someone has Group Fly on, and you're within the area of effect, you will be flying. That's what the option from Null addresses, and changing Group Fly to make what it does more manageable is what this thread, and the others going back to Live, is about.

[tidge]

24 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

The problem is that it doesn't allow a character to fly; it forces them to fly. You don't get the option; if someone has Group Fly on, and you're within the area of effect, you will be flying. That's what the option from Null addresses, and changing Group Fly to make what it does more manageable is what this thread, and the others going back to Live, is about.

 

I'm referring to the player that TAKES Group Fly, not an ally affected by it. No other toggles (aside from Group Fly) is needed to achieve lift-off.

[Troo]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:13 AM, tidge said:

with so many other travel powers offering combinations of travel effects (superspeed, teleport, flying) with a single toggle..

 

Could be there is something here.

 

How could the popup tray build on the original suggestion?

Toggling Fly then enables Toggling Afterburner.

Toggling Speed of Sound then enables Jaunt.

Toggling Mystic Flight then enables Translocation.

 

On 8/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, Wavicle said:

A) Make you and all YOUR pets fly.

B) Provide teammates with a server tray power that when toggled would make them and all THEIR pets fly.

 

Rather than having Group Fly trigger someone else's power..

Could we have Group Fly be (Self Fly + Pet Fly) augmented by a popup power which flys the team (Team Fly)?

 

On 8/26/2024 at 1:44 PM, Wavicle said:

A) Make you and all YOUR pets fly.

B) Provide a popup tray power that when toggled would make the team fly.

Group Fly

Minimum Level	14 (All Archetypes)
Effects	Toggle: Self Fly, Pet Fly -or- Toggle: Self Fly, (Special)
Enhancements	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Enhance Flight Speed
Set Categories	Flight
	Universal Travel

Group Fly > Group Team Fly

Minimum Level	14 (All Archetypes)
Effects	Toggle: Team Fly
Enhancements	None
Set Categories	None

Edited September 26 by Troo

[Krimson]

This is awesome. Taking a trip to Null is such a big hassle that now we're asking the Dev team to change the power. 

[Gravitus]

37 minutes ago, Krimson said:

This is awesome. Taking a trip to Null is such a big hassle that now we're asking the Dev team to change the power. 

What's rich is those same folks seem to have the energy to type entire essays on why I'm a narcissist when I tell them to use Null on the forums though. 

[Excraft]

48 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

What's rich is those same folks seem to have the energy to type entire essays on why I'm a narcissist when I tell them to use Null on the forums though. 

 

There's a little more to it than that. 

 

For clarity, you came to the forums ranting about getting kicked from a team when you didn't follow the team lead's request to turn off group fly, so they booted you.  You yourself admitted in that thread to not using GF all the time.  Your posts in that thread were trying to paint everyone else on the team (and anyone who disagreed with you) as somehow "morally wrong" for not catering to your whims, and that everyone else was clearly wrong and you were right.  That's why you were being a narcissist.

 

All you had to do was bite the bullet and turn off GF like the team lead asked you to do - which, again you admitted you don't need all the time -  then finish the TF and received your rewards.  Once done, you could have 1 starred the team lead and anyone else on the team to make sure you don't join any teams with them again. 

 

To be clear, you're not wrong that there is an option at Null everyone can choose to use or not, so I agree Group Fly doesn't need to be changed.  Not everyone remembers to do this on every character though and new players probably don't even know Null even exists.  Perhaps it's a simpler/more elegant solution to add a Null type contact in AP and MI or perhaps add Nulls options to Miss Liberty or the P2W vendor so these are setting players can adjust right from the start. 

Edited September 26 by Excraft

[Heliphyn34u]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:07 AM, mistagoat said:

Regular fly should just extend to the owners pets and Group Fly should be eliminated in favor of anything else. 

 

 

If Fly were to be changed, this ^ would be ideal.  Extending both Hover and Fly to the power owner's pets would be great (but who knows how much the code would need to be altered to do that).

 

Then, instead of Group Fly, the Flight set could include something like Grant Flight -- similar casting-wise to Grant Invisibility, and something that other players could opt-out of via the Options window.

 

I'm not expecting any of that to happen, mind you.  I'm sure the devs have bigger fish to fry.

 

 

[Gravitus]

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

 Your posts in that thread were trying to paint everyone else on the team (and anyone who disagreed with you) as somehow "morally wrong" for not catering to your whims, and that everyone else was clearly wrong and you were right.  That's why you were being a narcissist.

I asked a simple question on whom it would morally fall on. Yes I was implying I thought I was correct but that’s when you state your position and argument. Instead it degenerated into personal attacks. You really should go back and re-read.

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

All you had to do was bite the bullet and turn off GF like the team lead asked you to do - which, again you admitted you don't need all the time - 

 

I said I use it on open maps, not closed maps. Reasonable imo. I also stated I was using it for 75% of the TF and it wasn’t an issue. When you leave out pertinent details like this. You are being intellectually dishonest. 

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

 

To be clear, you're not wrong that there is an option at Null everyone can choose to use or not, so I agree Group Fly doesn't need to be changed. 

I mean I’m sure there has got to be a better way than null, but going to null isn’t hard either. 

 

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

Not everyone remembers to do this on every character though and new players probably don't even know Null even exists.

So at what point does a person’s lack of knowledge or forgetfulness then transfer to another person as a problem? Not trying to be a dick, I’m genuinely curious. There has to be some level of personal responsibility. I can’t go getting mad at other people for my lack of knowledge on game mechanics and expect them to alter their playstyle.

 

I get that if null didn’t exist, GF would absolutely fall into the same category as fold space, wormhole, KB etc…… but it doesn’t….. it has a very viable solution that satisfies all parties. 

 

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

Perhaps it's a simpler/more elegant solution to add a Null type contact in AP and MI or perhaps add Nulls options to Miss Liberty or the P2W vendor so these are setting players can adjust right from the start. 

It would be interesting to see if this would actually change anything because tbh I thought null was a pretty solid and simple fix. 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

Perhaps it's a simpler/more elegant solution to add a Null type contact in AP and MI or perhaps add Nulls options to Miss Liberty or the P2W vendor so these are setting players can adjust right from the start. 

Didn't the devs say they would not propagate Null the Gull to more locations?

[megaericzero]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

3 hours ago, Excraft said:

Perhaps it's a simpler/more elegant solution to add a Null type contact in AP and MI or perhaps add Nulls options to Miss Liberty or the P2W vendor so these are setting players can adjust right from the start. 

Didn't the devs say they would not propagate Null the Gull to more locations?

Plus, IIRC, Null is the type of contact that doesn't talk to people in TF mode. Based on recent threads, it sounds like that is a fair portion of when GF tensions pop up.

[tidge]

I want to make the following comment on the topic of "The Immobilize (of Evasive Maneuvers, currently a level 14 pick) would be too strong to make it an auto power". Mystic Flight (a level 4 pick) has a built-in anti-Immobilize measure, Translocation.

[Excraft]

14 hours ago, Gravitus said:

I asked a simple question on whom it would morally fall on. Yes I was implying I thought I was correct but that’s when you state your position and argument. Instead it degenerated into personal attacks. You really should go back and re-read.

 

I did read the thread.  Your intent was quite clear in that you felt you were "morally superior" and "in the right" for insisting everyone else cater to you instead of you adapting to working with others.

 

14 hours ago, Gravitus said:

I said I use it on open maps, not closed maps. Reasonable imo. I also stated I was using it for 75% of the TF and it wasn’t an issue. When you leave out pertinent details like this. You are being intellectually dishonest. 

 

Correct, you admitted you don't need to use it.  Since you don't need to use it, it's perfectly reasonable for a team lead who is being adversely affected by your use of GF to ask you to turn it off.  That's the point, not how long you were or weren't using it.  It doesn't matter if the team lead asked you within 30 seconds of starting or on the final mission of the TF.  It's their team, their rules.

 

14 hours ago, Gravitus said:

So at what point does a person’s lack of knowledge or forgetfulness then transfer to another person as a problem? Not trying to be a dick, I’m genuinely curious. There has to be some level of personal responsibility.

 

You can't fault new players for not knowing about Null.  Personal responsibility falls upon you as well.  Again, as was repeated many times in the other thread, there are other people on the team to be considerate of.  If you are using abilities that you know will be adversely affecting them, then you also have some degree of personal responsibility to inform your teammates ahead of time or to not use those abilities when asked on a team.  You're supposed to work together on a team and play well with others.  Telling everyone else to suck it up and that it's their problem they're being affected by your use of group fly simply because you can't be bothered to turn it off (again when you admitted to not even needing it), yes, that's being a dick and not taking any personal responsibility on a team.  If you're playing solo, knock yourself out.  Use group fly all you like.

 

14 hours ago, Gravitus said:

It would be interesting to see if this would actually change anything because tbh I thought null was a pretty solid and simple fix. 

 

Null is a simple solution, the problem with it is that it's not easily found unless someone knows about it ahead of time (and remembers to use it) and new players will not even know what things like speed boost and group fly are until they experience it first hand. 

 

14 hours ago, Rudra said:

Didn't the devs say they would not propagate Null the Gull to more locations?

 

I don't think Null needs to be in more locations, rather give some of his options to trainers like Miss Liberty so that players can see those options and explanations for them when they first start out. 

[Gravitus]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

I did read the thread.  Your intent was quite clear in that you felt you were "morally superior" and "in the right" for insisting everyone else cater to you instead of you adapting to working with others.

That's your flawed interpretation, not what was actually said. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Correct, you admitted you don't need to use it.  Since you don't need to use it, it's perfectly reasonable for a team lead who is being adversely affected by your use of GF to ask you to turn it off.  That's the point, not how long you were or weren't using it.  It doesn't matter if the team lead asked you within 30 seconds of starting or on the final mission of the TF.  It's their team, their rules.

I also don't need to use my henchmen in a team of 8. I could just sit back, and collect the rewards, but that sort of defeats the purpose of playing the game. I use the powers I've chosen because the point is to have fun. So not NEEDING something is a poor argument in a video game. 

 

And yes, it does matter if that team lead wants to be taken seriously. If the dude is waiting at a seemingly arbitrary moment to complain about something, he is less likely to be listened to...if he wants to be immature and boot that's his prerogative, just like its mine to call out such behavior and leave a negative review. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

You can't fault new players for not knowing about Null. 

Never did, I'm not sure what "new players" have to do with my OP, I doubt someone leading a TF is a new player. But for the record, new players also can't fault others and expect special treatment for their lack of knowledge on game mechanics. Like someone pointed out, there's been a load screen about Null for the past 3 years. So, unless you've played less than a week you should have seen the screen. The devs can't make people read what's in front of them. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Personal responsibility falls upon you as well. 

With the existence of Null and this particular situation, it simply doesn't.  But it's even worse in this case because I would have been a good sport and accommodated someone's laziness/forgetfullness had they simply requested it towards the beginning and not towards the end. I would call that concession the opposite of inconsiderate. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Again, as was repeated many times in the other thread, there are other people on the team to be considerate of.  If you are using abilities that you know will be adversely affecting them

You're saying people as in "plural". It was one guy. Also, because it was never mentioned as an issue until most of the TF was over, your "inconsiderate argument" is automatically defeated when I've already said I would have bit the bullet and turned it off if it was brought up earlier or by more than a single person. And you are assuming I knew it was going to have adverse effects on the team when there is no clear evidence of that. (i.e it wasn't brought up immediately) You had literally 1 guy bitch about it on the next to last mission, how you connected the dots to it being a me vs the team is beyond me. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

then you also have some degree of personal responsibility to inform your teammates ahead of time or to not use those abilities when asked on a team.  You're supposed to work together on a team and play well with others.

 

Again, this was a 1v1 disagreement, not me vs team as far as I could tell. Why do you keep smuggling in concepts that aren't there?

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Telling everyone else to suck it up and that it's their problem they're being affected by your use of group fly simply because you can't be bothered to turn it off (again when you admitted to not even needing it), yes, that's being a dick and not taking any personal responsibility on a team.

When did I say that? You're simply smuggling in your own presumptions and biases about my thought process. 

. 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

Null is a simple solution, the problem with it is that it's not easily found unless someone knows about it ahead of time (and remembers to use it) and new players will not even know what things like speed boost and group fly are until they experience it first hand.

Experience is a great teacher; I've limped through many things in this game of my 10+ years of playing it not knowing stuff, and not once did I get upset at others if my lack of experience hindered me in any way. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

 

 

Edited September 27 by Gravitus

[Enamel_32]

I like the server tray icon for players affected by the buff, and I think that toggling/untoggling it could be made to interact with the existing Null the gull power, probably.

 

That said, I think you could also add a pop-up power tray toggle for the person with group fly active, to suppress group flight for other players, effectively making it a pets-only version of the power.

[ZacKing]

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

That's your flawed interpretation, not what was actually said. 

 

There's nothing flawed about it.  We can all read what you wrote in the other thread.  You were being a narcissist and suggesting others were "morally wrong" for not agreeing with you. 

 

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

I also don't need to use my henchmen in a team of 8. I could just sit back, and collect the rewards, but that sort of defeats the purpose of playing the game. I use the powers I've chosen because the point is to have fun. So not NEEDING something is a poor argument in a video game. 

 

There's a huge difference between not using group fly - which you admit to not using all the time and thereby not needing - and leeching.  I think you know that.  What you're still failing to acknowledge is that teaming is different than soloing.  Teaming is a social activity you do with others, so your fun is superseded by the fun of everyone in the group, not the other way around.  Most people are social animals and understand they will need to change their game play in a team environment versus soloing.

 

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

With the existence of Null and this particular situation, it simply doesn't.

 

Yes it does.  Not everyone will even know about Null.  Whether you like it or not or want to admit it or not, you were partly to blame for what transpired on that TF.

 

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Again, this was a 1v1 disagreement, not me vs team as far as I could tell. Why do you keep smuggling in concepts that aren't there?

 

Why do you keep ignoring that it wasn't your team?  The team leader made a request which you refused, so they booted you which they were well within their rights to do.  A GM even confirmed that for you in your thread.

 

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

When did I say that? You're simply smuggling in your own presumptions and biases about my thought process. 

Look, this isn't rocket science here.  You created a rant thread about getting booted from a team because you refused to turn off group fly.  It's not a huge leap to figure out what happened.  You were using group fly, the team leader got annoyed with it and asked you to turn it off and you didn't, so you were booted.  I think it's reasonable to infer based on your replies in these threads, you weren't the nicest person in your response to that team lead, so that was more than likely why you got kicked.  Use that as a learning opportunity and inform other players on a team ahead of time that you like to use group fly and if they don't want to be affected by it, go visit Null before you start your TF.

 

Maybe try a different approach here and turn your experience into something positive instead of using it as an opportunity to rant and bash the team lead for booting you?  Your thread could have been about your experience and suggesting ways to improve group fly or make it so it doesn't adversely affect other players unless they want to so others don't have to have your bad experience.  That's what these other threads are trying to do.

Edited September 27 by ZacKing

[PeregrineFalcon]

[Enamel_32]

It sure would be nice if this discussion was constructive and about the suggestion.