How much DDR do you aim for?

[Teklord]

I don't normally play melee characters but I have some little knowledge from live (I am a returnee). I now am playing the revised Force Field defender and Damping Bubble is providing 25% DDR (and basically every debuff). I can cast it every 25 seconds and it is a 50ft bubble that provides all allies within it DDR and prot immobilize.

 

I use it on cooldown on ITFs and the like but I am curious how much this compares to the target DDR for various melee characters?

 

[arcane]

You just want as much DDR as your secondary powerset allows when slotted. Pretty simple. 

[Arcadio]

Super reflexes gets the most DDR at around 75%. Most other sets have much less around 30-40%, which is around what Dampening Bubble should be giving when enhanced.

[Without_Pause]

It's essentially helpful for any character not SR with the exemption of SR on a Sent as I can only get it in the +70% range. The best I can get outside of SR is around 50% from looking at some builds at a quick glance. 

[Without_Pause]

Just now, Arcadio said:

Super reflexes gets the most DDR at around 75%. Most other sets have much less around 30-40%, which is around what Dampening Bubble should be giving when enhanced.

SR can hit 95%. SR on Sent can hit in the area of 76%.

[Captain Fabulous]

Currently using DDR4. 😉

[Thraxen]

Can double stack the mez protection on shields to get to 70s I believe. Sr on sentinels hits 95 if you hit the 75 plus ageless. Believe stalkers don’t hit 95 without ageless. Scraps/brutes/tanks can hit 95 easy and should when 50 if slotted well. 

[Doomguide2005]

My Claws/SR scrapper (and main) is sitting at 95+%.  Anything less on an endgame SR scrapper probably needs a rework.  Note it will be less while leveling or exemped and as such I'd definitely try covering them at lower levels with FF bubbles for that alone.  It is as @arcanestated pretty much always a case of the more the merrier as it is the value that helps prevent cascade defense failure.  Most SR will dead long before a cascade can occur.

[Uun]

The reason SR is so far ahead of every other set in this regard is that all its DDR can be enhanced. Assuming you've taken and slotted all the shields (including the passives), this takes a base DDR value of 62% to over 95%. The only other power in an armor set that allows DDR to be enhanced is Shield/Battle Agility (Shield/Active Defense can't be enhanced but it can be stacked). Every other amor set power providing DDR is flagged to ignore enhancements.

 

SR	62% base / 97% enhanced
Shield	45% base / 53% enhanced / 70% enhanced & stacked
EA	52%
Ice	42%
Stone	42%
Ninjitsu	35%

 

[Linea]

How much: It depends ...

SR and SD can effectively cap DDR with Ageless +DDR, yes SR does this much more easily, while SD works harder but brings other options along as well.

EnA and Inv while not technically cappped can still achieve equitable results under extreme pressure, but through different mechanisms.

This all boils down to "there are reasons" I picked SD as the frame of my top of the line tank, while picking EnA as the top of the line Scrapper, and Inv as the Lazy Tank.

[Riverdusk]

On 9/5/2024 at 7:48 AM, Uun said:

The reason SR is so far ahead of every other set in this regard is that all its DDR can be enhanced. Assuming you've taken and slotted all the shields (including the passives), this takes a base DDR value of 62% to over 95%. The only other power in an armor set that allows DDR to be enhanced is Shield/Battle Agility (Shield/Active Defense can't be enhanced but it can be stacked). Every other amor set power providing DDR is flagged to ignore enhancements.

 

SR	62% base / 97% enhanced
Shield	45% base / 53% enhanced / 70% enhanced & stacked
EA	52%
Ice	42%
Stone	42%
Ninjitsu	35%

 

 

And Invuln - 50%

Willpower - 17.3%

 

[Uun]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

And Invuln - 50%

Willpower - 17.3%

I tried to add those but couldn't figure out how to add lines to the table without redoing the whole thing. The fact that Invul has more DDR than Ice, Stone and Ninjitsu is criminal.

[Teklord]

Thank you all. This helps a ton

[R jobbus]

On 9/4/2024 at 5:26 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

My Claws/SR scrapper (and main) is sitting at 95+%.  Anything less on an endgame SR scrapper probably needs a rework.  Note it will be less while leveling or exemped and as such I'd definitely try covering them at lower levels with FF bubbles for that alone.  It is as @arcanestated pretty much always a case of the more the merrier as it is the value that helps prevent cascade defense failure.  Most SR will dead long before a cascade can occur.

can I get an example of this build if you have one? I've been struggling to make an SR build that I like and I'd like to see it built properly

[Uun]

1 hour ago, R jobbus said:

can I get an example of this build if you have one? I've been struggling to make an SR build that I like and I'd like to see it built properly

Here's the build for my Psi/SR. Nothing crazy expensive but performs very well.

Uunthinkable - Scrapper (Psionic Melee).mbd

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, R jobbus said:

can I get an example of this build if you have one? I've been struggling to make an SR build that I like and I'd like to see it built properly

I'm on my phone right now so can't post mine, but I'll try and drop it in when I can.  She's built first for mitigation (lots of +max health and passive regeneration) and can enter a fight if desired at the scrapper health hard cap by using Rebirth) but usually saves it for a heal, often ends up using it on teammates.  2089 health is her non-Rebirth boosted max with about 32 hp/ sec regen iirc.

[R jobbus]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I'm on my phone right now so can't post mine, but I'll try and drop it in when I can.  She's built first for mitigation (lots of +max health and passive regeneration) and can enter a fight if desired at the scrapper health hard cap by using Rebirth) but usually saves it for a heal, often ends up using it on teammates.  2089 health is her non-Rebirth boosted max with about 32 hp/ sec regen iirc.

Yea i'd love to get a look at it when you get a chance, sounds dope. ive been trying to make an SR build but referencing yalls builds will probably help. i'll throw em together in the beta server later

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, R jobbus said:

Yea i'd love to get a look at it when you get a chance, sounds dope. ive been trying to make an SR build but referencing yalls builds will probably help. i'll throw em together in the beta server later

GRETA-001 (v1.11 i27) - Scrapper (Claws).mxd   This should be very close to what I'm currently running.

Edited September 10 by Doomguide2005

[Without_Pause]

My Claws/sr. It's at 50. I'm still working on Incarnates, but rotating RoP and Melee makes it incredibly difficult to kill. At some point I wouldn't mind dropping Hasten, but it smooths out the attack chain just enough. I'm sure if I switched in some purples I could get there, but whatever. 

 

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This my Dark/sr although the build is only 38. Dark is a bit tighter in it's slotting. Touch of Fear recharges in 2.36 and Soul Drain is near perma. It took time to figure out a build, but I have played this overwhelmingly over my other builds once I did so. 

 

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[Sovera]

Can't actually get more outside of your armor and incarnates so y'gotta pick an armor that has it.

 

How much is needed depends on your intents. I've soloed the ITF which is defense debuff heavy by killing things before they killed me and dropping Barrier for a large influx of defense to overcome the debuffing. It worked so it works. Sometimes all you need is to carry medium purples and eat a couple without overthinking it too much.

 

 

If you can provide DDR then by all means do so but even just your bubbles are already making DDR-less characters a lot tankier and even characters with defense but low DDR (ninjutsu, etc) will have such a large buffer of defense between their native defense plus your bubbles that it will take a lot of hits to reach cascading failure levels.

 

Cascading failure is what it is all about. Defense debuffing in itself is not a big problem. Grab a normal ITF spawn and we have 10-12 mobs all doing defense debuffs, which is dangerous as all those hits will whittle defense and once under the softcaps it will make the next hit easier, which in turn adds more debuffs, which in turn makes the next hit easier. It's a vicious circle and what's we call cascading failures.

 

But if a character has low DDR but a large defense buffer (most will build for 45%) and then we add your own shield (just considering the defense and not the DDR you're providing) then it's another, what? About 40% or more? That's at least 80%. Mobs will still need to go through that defense, manage to hit with their piddly 5% chance to hit, then whittle the defense, but the extra defense is covering it so they are still effectively softcapped making the enemies still have only 5% chance to hit.

 

It will take many hits to get it down under 45% where each hit makes the next hit easier.

 

 

But taking the example above of the 10-12 mobs doing defense debuffs if a character hops in, uses Build-up, then vaporizes half the group in a volley of AoEs now it's not 10-12 enemies all whittling defense down. If it's just 4-5 enemies then the debuffing is a lot less severe and dangerous.

 

Another dangerous group that does defense debuffing are the praetorian robots that are common in the end game. Those guys refuse to go into melee and each hit that lands will debuff defenses. It's easy to die to them. Or is it? Kinda. Do a corner pull and when they are all bunched up the same basic tactic of Build-up + AoEs will kill most f not all minions and it's again just 4-5 enemies.

 

Most times these enemies are something I pull a small purple (12% defense) if solo since I'm already at 45% at least and now they need to get me down from 57% while I'm doing those BU backed AoEs.

[R jobbus]

16 hours ago, Sovera said:

Can't actually get more outside of your armor and incarnates so y'gotta pick an armor that has it.

 

How much is needed depends on your intents. I've soloed the ITF which is defense debuff heavy by killing things before they killed me and dropping Barrier for a large influx of defense to overcome the debuffing. It worked so it works. Sometimes all you need is to carry medium purples and eat a couple without overthinking it too much.

 

 

If you can provide DDR then by all means do so but even just your bubbles are already making DDR-less characters a lot tankier and even characters with defense but low DDR (ninjutsu, etc) will have such a large buffer of defense between their native defense plus your bubbles that it will take a lot of hits to reach cascading failure levels.

 

Cascading failure is what it is all about. Defense debuffing in itself is not a big problem. Grab a normal ITF spawn and we have 10-12 mobs all doing defense debuffs, which is dangerous as all those hits will whittle defense and once under the softcaps it will make the next hit easier, which in turn adds more debuffs, which in turn makes the next hit easier. It's a vicious circle and what's we call cascading failures.

 

But if a character has low DDR but a large defense buffer (most will build for 45%) and then we add your own shield (just considering the defense and not the DDR you're providing) then it's another, what? About 40% or more? That's at least 80%. Mobs will still need to go through that defense, manage to hit with their piddly 5% chance to hit, then whittle the defense, but the extra defense is covering it so they are still effectively softcapped making the enemies still have only 5% chance to hit.

 

It will take many hits to get it down under 45% where each hit makes the next hit easier.

 

 

But taking the example above of the 10-12 mobs doing defense debuffs if a character hops in, uses Build-up, then vaporizes half the group in a volley of AoEs now it's not 10-12 enemies all whittling defense down. If it's just 4-5 enemies then the debuffing is a lot less severe and dangerous.

 

Another dangerous group that does defense debuffing are the praetorian robots that are common in the end game. Those guys refuse to go into melee and each hit that lands will debuff defenses. It's easy to die to them. Or is it? Kinda. Do a corner pull and when they are all bunched up the same basic tactic of Build-up + AoEs will kill most f not all minions and it's again just 4-5 enemies.

 

Most times these enemies are something I pull a small purple (12% defense) if solo since I'm already at 45% at least and now they need to get me down from 57% while I'm doing those BU backed AoEs.

 

Yea I couldn't agree more with this post. If you want to go medium/decent/respectable damage but high DDR where you take your time widdling things down at a reasonable rate, you're gonna need the DDR to do that when faced with +4 cimerorans and the like. (or you could just go shield on tanker with pretty good damage+KD+DDR)

 

But the above post illustrates how you can still just go full damage titan/bio on a scrapper, pop barrier and paralytic+momentum and just obliterate 2 or 3 cimeroran spawns at +4 before they really have a chance to do anything substantial. Maybe you'll have to jump away from defense debuffs once, but again, the offense is so large that it's what saves you with some bio-heals and management+barrier, not the DDR (that bio doesnt have any of, as far as im aware).

 

it's all about how you approach whatever it is you're trying to do

[R jobbus]

19 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

GRETA-001 (v1.11 i27) - Scrapper (Claws).mxd   This should be very close to what I'm currently running.

 

This build is amazing, I tweaked a few things just for some added accuracy vs phalanx fighting on cimerorans but it's really great. I did not expect it to be able to tank just crazy amounts of stuff at +4 at a time. super cool.

 

I wanted to ask though, cause I'm not entirely sure, and this keeps happening, does defense on SR go up as your health lowers? or does DDR go up when your health lowers? Very consistently, there will be times where I'm tanking massive groups of stuff with like...maybe 3-5% HP left, but it won't kill me. Very rarely will the character just straight up die. What's the deal with that. I know scaling damage resist happens but I thought that was strictly the amount of damage you take, not the rate at which you're getting hit. Is this an SR only thing? just curious

[Uun]

1 minute ago, R jobbus said:

I wanted to ask though, cause I'm not entirely sure, and this keeps happening, does defense on SR go up as your health lowers? or does DDR go up when your health lowers? Very consistently, there will be times where I'm tanking massive groups of stuff with like...maybe 3-5% HP left, but it won't kill me. Very rarely will the character just straight up die. What's the deal with that. I know scaling damage resist happens but I thought that was strictly the amount of damage you take, not the rate at which you're getting hit. Is this an SR only thing? just curious

Defense and DDR don't scale with your health. You're seeing the scaling resistance at work. It kicks in when your health drops below 60% and increases as your health drops  (i.e., 15% resist at 45% health, 30% resist at 30% health, 45% resist at 15% health, 60% resist at 0% health).  This stacks with resistance in your build from Tough and set bonuses, so it's possible to hit the 75% resist cap. You'll hit the S/L cap first, but will be closer to 0 health before you hit it for other damage types.

 

This is why SR is so good on tanks. At around 10% health you can hit the 90% resist cap to all damage types (except toxic and psi).

[Doomguide2005]

As @Uunstated.  It's s effect is more notable because of her +max health.  It's not unusual for me to see Tankers who don't have Dull Pain clones to only be a 2 or 3 hundred health higher and Brutes with less health which makes their edge in max resistances lessened especially when you add a couple orange inspires to the mix.  And your correct with observation that their phalanx fighting can turn it into a whiffing contest.  Eventually she'll come out on top as she slowly whittles them down but ill speed up the process by moving which pulls them apart dropping their buffs and or popping yellows. 

[Teklord]

I do find that on ITFs casting my big bubble with 25% DDR to all in it on cooldown is helpful. I find it super helpful in the first mission where we get mobbed by Nictus/Dark Dwarf/Dark Novas and later on the various AV fights (computer console, final fight at door).  Also what I am hearing is that basically everyone but SR will find value in the DDR I provide especially since I am also providing about 34% def to all (but psi) and some mez protection.

 

This does help me find more value as a Force Field Defender even in high level content. The FF rework is amazing and I am providing debuffs as well as buffs. But I do like how the debuff resistance is helpful too.