Aggravated

[Gravitus]

This is a vent post...and if this describes something you've done to others, I hope you stub your toe walking around the house this week.

 

So, I run a bots mm that utilizes group fly. Bots are primarily ranged attackers, so I like to fly the team around and blast things from out of melee range...plus it just looks cool when the bots are using their thrusters. I'm practical...I won't use it in closed maps like caves.

 

At any rate I'm in a TF and 75% of the way through the leader asks me to turn it off (in a open map no less) I refuse because others shouldn't be able to impose on my playstyle (when Null exists to solve that issue) and I get booted.

 

As a casual gamer my time is very valuable to me and getting through most of the TF just to not get the rewards was super aggravating. Can GMs do nothing to these people if we report them?

[MoisesG]

If it was affecting the melee players i can understand how your playstyle can affect others. If not, then it should not matter if you have group fly on or not.

May i suggest that you lead your own teams/TFs that way you can set up your own rules from the get-go and everyone is aware. Other than that i doubt there is anything the devs can do.

[Bionic_Flea]

Group fly is a terribly controversial power because it takes agency away from players.  It either takes away the ability of the player that chose that power to have flying pets, or it takes away the agency of the players that don't want to fly.  Some characters even have powers that can only be used on the ground so that prevents them from using those powers. 

 

Yes, you can change that setting at Null but . . . how many people know about that? . . . how many people know about that and forget until they are in a TF with someone else using it?  I wish that the power only effected pets UNLESS you changed it at Null.  Or that it was a setting that you could change on the fly with a /command.  That would prevent problems like the one you had.

 

Finally, no, GMs do not generally get involved in players kicking other players from teams.  But you can certainly file a ticket if you want to.  Like it or not, the leader built the team and gets a certain amount of authority for doing that.  You were asked to stop doing something and you didn't.  He has the right to kick you.  Just like you have the right never to team with them again.

Edited September 16 by Bionic_Flea

[ZacKing]

I can empathize as this is always a sucky situation when people on teams don't agree.  With that said, the team leader didn't do anything wrong.  It's their team, they're leading it and they get to set the rules on how they are going to run the TF.  If they asked you to turn it off and you didn't they're within their right to boot you.   If it's disruptive to the rest of the team, then yes they can boot you.

 

A couple of things...

 

18 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

others shouldn't be able to impose on my playstyle

 

Nor should you be able to impose on their play styles.  That door swings both ways.  You could have let team mates know in advance that you'll be using group fly and if they have a problem with it, there's a Null option in PD to disable it or they can go do some other content or ask you not to use it. 

 

20 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

As a casual gamer my time is very valuable to me

 

So is everyone elses time very valuable to them.

 

21 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Can GMs do nothing to these people if we report them?

I don't believe so and I don't think they should.  Again, the team leader didn't do anything wrong in asking you to turn off group fly and booting you when you didn't oblige.

 

There's really no right or wrong here.  It's more a lack of communication ahead of time.  Sorry it happened to you.  Maybe next time let team mates know you'll be using it ahead of time?

[Gravitus]

Just now, MoisesG said:

If it was affecting the melee players i can understand how your playstyle can affect others. If not, then it should not matter if you have group fly on or not.

May i suggest that you lead your own teams/TFs that way you can set up your own rules from the get-go and everyone is aware. Other than that i doubt there is anything the devs can do.

If I wasn't a casual gamer with limited time that would be more feasible.... but seeing as how the devs have already provided a solution, would it not morally fall on the other players who don't want it to deal with it? 

[Gravitus]

2 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I can empathize as this is always a sucky situation when people on teams don't agree.  With that said, the team leader didn't do anything wrong.  It's their team, they're leading it and they get to set the rules on how they are going to run the TF.  If they asked you to turn it off and you didn't they're within their right to boot you.   If it's disruptive to the rest of the team, then yes they can boot you.

 

A couple of things...

 

 

Nor should you be able to impose on their play styles.  That door swings both ways.  You could have let team mates know in advance that you'll be using group fly and if they have a problem with it, there's a Null option in PD to disable it or they can go do some other content or ask you not to use it. 

 

 

So is everyone elses time very valuable to them.

 

I don't believe so and I don't think they should.  Again, the team leader didn't do anything wrong in asking you to turn off group fly and booting you when you didn't oblige.

 

There's really no right or wrong here.  It's more a lack of communication ahead of time.  Sorry it happened to you.  Maybe next time let team mates know you'll be using it ahead of time?

About the door swinging both ways...I think that only becomes a viable argument if Null didn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't take the correct steps. 

[Gravitus]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Group fly is a terribly controversial power because it takes agency away from players.  It either takes away the ability of the player that chose that power to have flying pets, or it takes away the agency of the players that don't want to fly.  Some characters even have powers that can only be used on the ground so that prevents them from using those powers. 

 

Yes, you can change that setting at Null but . . . how many people know about that? . . . how many people know about that and forget until they are in a TF with someone else using it?  I wish that the power only effected pets UNLESS you changed it at Null.  Or that it was a setting that you could change on the fly with a /command.  That would prevent problems like the one you had.

 

Finally, no, GMs do not generally get involved in players kicking other players from teams.  But you can certainly file a ticket if you want to.  Like it or not, the leader built the team and gets a certain amount of authority for doing that.  You were asked to stop doing something and you didn't.  He has the right to kick you.  Just like you have the right never to team with them again.

You have a well measured response and you generally do. We are in violent agreement that Null (While a solution) is a lackluster one.... but also, with people change alignment like crazy, I'm not 100% sure it's a player lacking knowledge thing.... maybe laziness? 

 

At any rate as far as the running of the teams go, I do believe there is a point when the team lead can be tyrannical. For example, first mission or 2 you see me using it and say something.... (even though I feel like I'm justified due to Null being a solution you elected not to take) I will play ball or quit of my own volition. But it's another thing entirely to wait until we are 3 quarters done to say something and then essentially rob me of my vested time. 

[Hedgefund]

Like Flea said, this setting can't be changed in a task force so no , they couldn't change it at during an ITF.

 

Speaking for myself I don't think about GF, at least not historically but I seem to be encountering it more frequently these days.  Now it's on my checklist at Null to turn off.

 

The shame of it not being something toggleable is that there are edge cases (I can think of one) where I do want GF and that's the Seed of Hami encounter.  Because turning off GF is a standard configuration I set now, I don't get the temp fly from the Seed fight.  Not the biggest deal, I've always got a flight pack but it does hinder my MMs some.

 

I've got to say, as a GF hater, I cheered for the team lead in the OP story.

[Gravitus]

1 hour ago, Hedgefund said:

I've got to say, as a GF hater, I cheered for the team lead in the OP story.

I hope its a hard piece of wooden furniture. 

Edited September 16 by Gravitus

[Nemu]

Your post reeks of entitlement.

 

"I wanna play my way!!!"

 

Fuck yeah you can, alone....

 

FYI I do turn off GF and team tp at Null the gull but if a team leader asks me not to do anything and it doesn't significantly impact my performance/contribution to the team and ensures that the team as a whole has fun, then I just suck it up and do it. It's called compromise.

 

In this case how crippling is turning off group fly to what you are able to do for the team?

 

If you don't wish to compromise then don't expect other people to cater to only your needs.

[ZacKing]

17 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

About the door swinging both ways...I think that only becomes a viable argument if Null didn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't take the correct steps. 

 

Yeah no, you're in the wrong too.  You're essentially telling everyone else to do something so you can have fun while at the same time trying to say others asking you to do something (turn off group fly) so they can have fun is wrong.  Turning off group fly is easier for you than it is for people to run to Null if you really want to get that petty about it.  It's clear you can't look at things objectively here.  No matter what you say, there's nothing making you ineffective and unable to contribute to the team without group fly on.  By your own admission, you don't use it on certain maps, so you don't need it on.  Just about everyone adjusts the way they play when they're on a team vs playing solo.  You can do it too.

 

9 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

At any rate as far as the running of the teams go, I do believe there is a point when the team lead can be tyrannical.

 

There's nothing tyrannical about booting you from their team when you didn't oblige a team leader's request.

 

7 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Your post reeks of entitlement.

 

I agree. 

[Neiska]

My two cents - 

 

On the fence with this one. I use it myself but consider it a “best for solo” tool. If you ability only affected yourself, then sure. Go for it.

 

But since it affects other people, it’s not just you here either. 
 

Yes, null the full is a thing. But so are other team activities that might use it, like Hami.

 

Personally, I don’t really use it in teams because there really isn’t a need to in most circumstances. But if the leader asked me to turn it off, then I would. You may feel differently, and that’s okay. But, just as you are free to use that power as you like, then so too that extends to the team leader not wanting it used, and is within the circumstances to remove you from the team.

 

If you want to use it in a team setting, then either clear it with the leader beforehand or you can also make your own team. But don’t be surprised if you have people leaving either.

[Lunar Ronin]

31 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

About the door swinging both ways...I think that only becomes a viable argument if Null didn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't take the correct steps. 

 

I agree, but there's nothing you can do.  Just one star the team leader so you know to avoid him or her in the future.  You can also start forming your own teams.  If people complain about you using Group Fly while leading the teams, you can point them to Null the Gull.  If they still complain, then you can kick them.  I do.

[lemming]

Team lead should have brought it up earlier, but they can boot people if they feel like it.   And people can then put them on ignore.

 

GF is one of those powers that needs some modifications just so we avoid these threads.

 

Odd idea which would only work with Ouro & TFs;  Checkboxs added like "No Travel Powers" to have "No Group Fly, No Knockback, no .... you get the idea..."

(I'd prefer more elegant solutions though)

[Gerswin]

Group fly is a plague on the game.  Group fly advocates get put on global ignore so I don't accidentally get put in the spot that the OP's team leader was in. The world is a better place without group fly users polluting it with their disgusting presence.

[RCU7115]

51 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

If I wasn't a casual gamer with limited time that would be more feasible.... but seeing as how the devs have already provided a solution, would it not morally fall on the other players who don't want it to deal with it? 

There may have been new players on the team that do not know about Null and what Null can do. 

You were asked to plz turn it off and you refused. I would have booted you too if you didn't comply. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, Gravitus said:

About the door swinging both ways...I think that only becomes a viable argument if Null didn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't take the correct steps. 

I've played CoH for a decade plus. All I have really known Null to do was help me switch sides and let me know who I need to kill in terms of AVs for the badge. You presume way too much about a player base. 

 

I have never liked anyone using GF on me. I only use it between missions when I'm on my MM. And yes, I will pay attention to other players around me when I start to use it simply because I don't want to impact them.

Edited September 16 by Without_Pause

[PyroNugget]

before i start --i have 2 lvl 50 MM with group fly ( bots/FF and mercs/TA)   i built them for it

 

the onus to use group fly on a team is on YOU. it is very disruptive to how others play

you join someone else's team  and they ask to turn it off , you turn it off.just like going to someone's house and they say "no shoes inside"--do you argue with them?debate your side of how uncomfortable it is to do that?.NO.. you take your shoes off.

 

if you are dead set on using it--then YOU FORM THE TEAM and announce that you will be using it, maybe even tell people to hit Null prior. now as team lead/group forming person,you can then kick anyone who complains about it--as it was in the bark announcement and it's your team.

 

they are not "imposing on your play style" they are asking you to turn off 1 power and play on a TEAM.

[Skyhawke]

*Unwarranted Group Fly can be annoying to some, helpful to others. A quick "Hey, anyone mind if I use Group Fly?" and BAM, problem solved. Being proactive can solve so many issues people have in this game.

*Another casual gamer may not 1. Know about Null, 2. Know why they suddenly are floating and 3. Enjoy having to take up their minimal gaming time to figure this out and trek to Null to fix it.

*Being kicked from a team happens, sometimes for the most ridiculous reasons. Not worth getting into a huff over.

*As other have said, you may want to make your own teams. Blackjack and hookers optional.

[GM Crumpet]

I personally hate group fly as I always forget to turn it off at Null until it's too late. I also hate speed boost and ditto. Then I'm stuck in a TF until it's over. A simple "anyone mind group fly?" would solve that problem most of the time. And yes, the majority hate it. I cringe when I see a bots MM join as it seems to only be them that use it all the time.

 

As for team leads, they have full authority over the team. If they have asked someone not to do something, like group fly, teleporting enemies away from the tank, massive knockback powers etc and they continue then they have the right to kick who they like. GM's won't interfere. Some team leads have odd ideas, but the majority are normal sensible people. 

[Gravitus]

So I don't end up addressing the same terrible argument more than once...

 

One of the main purposes for Null's existence is so GF users can play their toon hassle free without effecting others. So, both sides can get what they want. That's the purpose of Null. That's a fact, not an opinion. Hassle free includes not asking permission to play my build. It's not the same as purposely using my powers to grief. I am playing the game the way it was intended to be played. It IS a strategically viable method to have ranged attackers out of melee range of enemies on open maps. 

 

AGAIN, if Null didn't exist. I would concede the point. 

 

So people who have an issue with GF fall into 1 of 2 camps.

 

1. You either chose not to/forgot to turn it off

 

OR

 

2. You didn't know you could turn it off

 

I have a strong suspicion those in camp 1 outnumber those in camp 2...because camp 2 people aren't generally leading TFs. Regardless, ignorance of something has never been a viable defense to affect others in a negative way. And if you made an error and forgot, I shouldn't have to be punished for someone else's forgetfulness. 

 

If a solution exists that appeases all involved, that becomes the moral choice. Ergo Null. 

 

Like I said earlier, I would even been gracious enough to quit the first mission if it was brought up. But after you've used my services to help you succeed in your mission for 75% of the mission, I feel like you are morally obligated to let me finish out unless I was actually causing us to lose. 

Edited September 16 by Gravitus

[Doomguide2005]

75% of the way through the TF!   I'd almost be suspicious the Team Leader was getting messages, i.e. complaints, from others on the team about group fly.  Were any of your teammates asking?  But yes you can expect most team leaders who've  asked you to stop using group fly or to stop knocking things all over the place, or using your powers in a manner disruptive to the team or because they don't like characters with pink hair to change your costume to well exercise their power to kick you.  I'd suggest letting your teammates know up front and if it's a major issue resolve it before even 1% of the TF or activity is completed.

 

And no saying they should need to go PD to change things up beforehand is not sufficient when it could all be handle at the beginning.  I also tend lean in the direction that the onus is just as much on you as you are using a power that is well known to be annoying to employ for you to make that known at the beginning. 

Edited September 16 by Doomguide2005

[Bionic_Flea]

6 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

The entire purpose for Null's existence is so GF users can play their toon hassle free without effecting others

 

No, sorry.  Group fly settings is but one of Null's benefits, and a minor one at that, at least in my opinion.  You can change alignments, check Dimensional Warder Progress, Speed buffs, Group Fly, and Mystic Fortune opt outs, and removing the extra pop up power tray.

 

Edit:  Since you refuse to acknowledge that you may have been wrong, despite pretty much everyone saying so, I will cease responding and let you vent in peace.

Edited September 16 by Bionic_Flea

[Gravitus]

5 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

75% of the way through the TF!   I'd almost be suspicious the Team Leader was getting messages, i.e. complaints, from others on the team about group fly.  Were any of your teammates asking?  But yes you can expect most team leaders who've  asked you to stop using group fly or to stop knocking things all over the place, or using your powers in a manner disruptive to the team or because they don't like characters with pink hair to change your costume to well exercise their power to kick you.  I'd suggest letting your teammates know up front and if it's a major issue resolve it before even 1% of the TF or activity is completed.

I mean I would have no way of knowing...but generally speaking from experience in the past...if others were complaining about GF, they've generally asked me directly or the leader mentions the complaints of others when making the request......seeing as he was a melee build...i suspect i wasn't an issue to him until I was. 

[Without_Pause]

2 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

The entire purpose for Null's existence is so GF users can play their toon hassle free without effecting others. So, both sides can get what they want. That's the purpose of Null. That's a fact, not an opinion.

That is in fact an opinion. How does me switching sides impact others? How does me seeing what AVs I need to kill impact others? How about sending me to a different place? Most so considering how much I solo. How does me switching to Red side to solo the Black Scorpion arc only to switch back impact others? I, in fact, do not.