Aggravated

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     It's not just a decent solution... it would put equivalent "power" in the hands of both the Group Slow Fly Party and the Player Agency Party; it would make the conflict symmetrical.  If that were to happen, the unanimous response to someone using Group Slow Fly would be to tell them "go to Null the Gull and change that to only affect yourself and your pets".

 

     Spoiler alert: it's probably impossible though without making a new power within the Flight pool, that from the ground up is coded differently to only affect those entities.  The way Null the Gull works is that he grants you a power after talking to him, but this power is passive and invisible; it blocks Group Fly but only because it's on your character.  The reciprocal Null the Gull option would have to like grant the user an aura that dynamically grants this power to everyone in range as if they had talked to Null themselves, with the ability to discriminate against the user's pets.  I'm not sure that can be done. 

yes, i would assume the smart way to code it would have a "shadow version" null could turn on that affects just yourself and your pets.  

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

 Spoiler alert: it's probably impossible though without making a new power within the Flight pool, that from the ground up is coded differently to only affect those entities.  The way Null the Gull works is that he grants you a power after talking to him, but this power is passive and invisible; it blocks Group Fly but only because it's on your character.  The reciprocal Null the Gull option would have to like grant the user an aura that dynamically grants this power to everyone in range as if they had talked to Null themselves, with the ability to discriminate against the user's pets.  I'm not sure that can be done. 

 

My knowledge of game coding and such is pretty limited. Kind of bummed it's not really possible without making a whole new power, which is unfortunate.

[Shin Magmus]

31 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

My knowledge of game coding and such is pretty limited. Kind of bummed it's not really possible without making a whole new power, which is unfortunate.

     Group Fly could be re-coded to call 1 of 2 different powers, in the same way that Titan Weapons calls either the slow power or the fast power (these are not the same, although they both share enhancements from your build) depending on whether or not you have momentum.  But that's a lot of work. 

[OverkillEngine]

10 hours ago, Neiska said:

Now I find myself wondering if the best fix would be just to give an option with Null to make group fly apply to just yourself and pets. That way the onus isn't on everyone else, but the person who want's the power. The person who uses the power themselves can just select "affect other players off." Kind of an everyone wins solution.

 

This should be technically possible in an indirect way, and there is precedent for the mechanics I am about to propose across multiple powersets and AT's:


Group Fly should simply grant two versions of itself: (precedent: every other damn power that grants multiple powers, there are more than a few!)

Version A only affects the caster and the caster's pets. No one else. (precedent: Supremacy)

Version B affects all friendlies in range. (Precedent: right now)

The two versions are mutually exclusive toggles. (precedent: how tank and scrapper toggles were originally flagged to function at release, ammo mode toggles, bio armor mode toggles, etc)




There. Done. Then the only issue left with Group Fly is anyone being too stubborn or unobservant to run the right toggle for a situation, since with this you can adapt on the fly (ha-ha! me so punny!), no need for anyone to talk to an NPC in a specific zone ahead of time, etc, etc, etc.

Null can stay as the way for someone to permanently opt out if they can't be bothered to use their adult words in chat. Though I'd really prefer a way to opt in on the fly (lol! me so punny x2!) for situations like seed of hamidon or the Rikti ship where on demand access would be nice if one forgot to bring a jetpack and you can't just leave to fix that lack without missing content.

Edited September 27 by OverkillEngine

[ZemX]

I think just switching Group Fly to opt-in instead of opt-out is the simplest solution unless there's some technical reason that couldn't work on a new toon.  Nothing wrong with the Null solution we have other than people either not knowing about it or forgetting about it after character creation.   And it's probably a situation where 99.99% of people want it disabled or would want it if they knew about it.

[Lunar Ronin]

A.  It was explained back on live and again in the early years of Homecoming that moving the ability to block Group Fly, Speed Boost, and Team Teleport to the options menu was a non-viable solution because they require tokens granted to the character in order to override the powers, which requires interaction with a NPC.

 

B. It was explained by Captain Powerhouse three years ago that switching Group Fly and Team Teleport to opt-in is also a non-viable solution, as doing so would prevent the abilities to work on henchmen which is what they're primarily used for today.

 

C. There's been a loading screen tip for the past three years: "Annoyed by Group Fly?  Talk with Null the Gull in Pocket D!"  So unless people have completely ignored loading screen tips for the past three years, few people can legitimately say that they don't know about the Null the Gull option.

 

D. The simplest solution would be to grant other NPCs in other zones the abilities to disable Group Fly, Speed Boost, and Team Teleport.  Give it to trainers in Atlas Park, Mercy Island, and Nova Praetoria.  Add a NPC with it in The Hive, The Abyss, Rikti War Zone, Cimerora, and the instanced mothership raid.  This has been asked for for three years, but it hasn't been done for whatever reason.  Of course, even if it were ever able to be done, people would still whine and complain, but they should be summarily ignored.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, OverkillEngine said:

 

This should be technically possible in an indirect way, and there is precedent for the mechanics I am about to propose across multiple powersets and AT's:


Group Fly should simply grant two versions of itself: (precedent: every other damn power that grants multiple powers, there are more than a few!)

Version A only affects the caster and the caster's pets. No one else. (precedent: Supremacy)

Version B affects all friendlies in range. (Precedent: right now)

The two versions are mutually exclusive toggles. (precedent: how tank and scrapper toggles were originally flagged to function at release, ammo mode toggles, bio armor mode toggles, etc)




There. Done. Then the only issue left with Group Fly is anyone being too stubborn or unobservant to run the right toggle for a situation, since with this you can adapt on the fly (ha-ha! me so punny!), no need for anyone to talk to an NPC in a specific zone ahead of time, etc, etc, etc.

Null can stay as the way for someone to permanently opt out if they can't be bothered to use their adult words in chat. Though I'd really prefer a way to opt in on the fly (lol! me so punny x2!) for situations like seed of hamidon or the Rikti ship where on demand access would be nice if one forgot to bring a jetpack and you can't just leave to fix that lack without missing content.

Lovely.

and if someone forgets to switch to Self and Pets only, they can be asked to do so and won't lose flying

 

Edited September 27 by JasperStone

[OverkillEngine]

Hell, I'd make the Self and Self Pets version the one that shows up on the bar "first" just to serve as a soft hint to use it by default.

[Excraft]

16 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

C. There's been a loading screen tip for the past three years: "Annoyed by Group Fly?  Talk with Null the Gull in Pocket D!"  So unless people have completely ignored loading screen tips for the past three years, few people can legitimately say that they don't know about the Null the Gull option.

 

I'm being honest here, I don't think I've ever seen this loading screen message.

[Sovera]

I'm not reading 17 pages, but, has anyone actually ever needed or appreciated having Group Fly used on them? By level 5-10 we all have our travel powers. Visiting the Gull to flag the Group Fly off makes no sense. It should be off by default and then those who want it flag it for themselves.

 

For me this bothers little since I have no non-flyers.

[Troyusrex]

On 9/16/2024 at 11:42 AM, Gravitus said:

This is a vent post...and if this describes something you've done to others, I hope you stub your toe walking around the house this week.

 

So, I run a bots mm that utilizes group fly. Bots are primarily ranged attackers, so I like to fly the team around and blast things from out of melee range...plus it just looks cool when the bots are using their thrusters. I'm practical...I won't use it in closed maps like caves.

 

At any rate I'm in a TF and 75% of the way through the leader asks me to turn it off (in a open map no less) I refuse because others shouldn't be able to impose on my playstyle (when Null exists to solve that issue) and I get booted.

 

As a casual gamer my time is very valuable to me and getting through most of the TF just to not get the rewards was super aggravating. Can GMs do nothing to these people if we report them?

Look, I know I should go to null gull for every character and change it so that group fly doesn't affect me, but I haven't. Your using group fly in this way would annoy me as well.

 

That said, I would assume responsibility and take a side trip to Pocket-D instead of asking you to change your playstyle. 

[Lunar Ronin]

46 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I'm not reading 17 pages, but, has anyone actually ever needed or appreciated having Group Fly used on them? By level 5-10 we all have our travel powers. Visiting the Gull to flag the Group Fly off makes no sense. It should be off by default and then those who want it flag it for themselves.

 

For me this bothers little since I have no non-flyers.

 

As explained multiple times in this thread and again four posts above yours, a developer has said that making Group Fly and Team Teleport off by default is a non-viable solution due to spaghetti coding.

[Bionic_Flea]

I also remember people saying we couldn't have different animations . . . or different colors for powers . . . or a way to turn Group Fly at all.  Somethings are impossible, somethings are hard, somethings are time consuming, and somethings have such a minor benefit that it isn't worth doing.  And even the impossible sometimes becomes possible with new tech or a different way to approach a problem.  I don't know what GF is.  It may be impossible . . . for now.

[ZacKing]

9 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

As explained multiple times in this thread and again four posts above yours, a developer has said that making Group Fly and Team Teleport off by default is a non-viable solution due to spaghetti coding.

 

It's on by default so that it affects pets, which is intended for Group Fly.  Turning it off by default and making Null turn it on defeats that purpose. 

[Andreah]

The simplest solution is still to do nothing coding-wise, and tell people annoyed by Group Fly to go see Null; and regardless of that, when people refuse to stop using it when asked by their team leaders, kick them off the team.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

What if Group Fly was disabled by default and enabled for any player who selects the power? Thus, the only way for Group Fly to affect you is to either go to Null and activate it or select the power.

I like this because it “idiot proofs” the problem.  It doesn’t moron proof it. Some moron could go to Null, switch it on, and still complain about another player using group fly.  But it would solve 99% problems

Edited September 27 by Snarky

[Laucianna]

2 hours ago, Krimson said:

What if Group Fly was disabled by default and enabled for any player who selects the power? Thus, the only way for Group Fly to affect you is to either go to Null and activate it or select the power.

That would be a perfect way to do it and super new person friendly!

[Laucianna]

Just now, Krimson said:

My aggravation was based on the fact that players might choose a power that other players don't like, and have no way of knowing until said players start shitting on them in mission. That's not a good way to run a game.

Full agree there, system is flawed at the moment which I believe all sides agree on (Think XD) and it's defo worth brainstorming ways to solve that issue like your idea is a great solution imo ❤️ 

[ZemX]

3 hours ago, Andreah said:

The simplest solution is still to do nothing coding-wise, and tell people annoyed by Group Fly to go see Null; and regardless of that, when people refuse to stop using it when asked by their team leaders, kick them off the team.

 

So after 18 pages of discussion we've arrived at.... the exact thing that happened to the OP as the solution?

 

Well done everyone!

[Neiska]

47 minutes ago, Krimson said:

My aggravation was based on the fact that players might choose a power that other players don't like, and have no way of knowing until said players start shitting on them in mission. That's not a good way to run a game.

 

Or you could turn it on, and when asked to turn it off then do so? Or even perhaps ask in team chat "hey, does anyone mind if I use group fly?" No shitting on anyone necessary. 

 

But the thing is, I can't recall once in nearly 4 years of playing CoH, of anyone asking in team chat "hey can I use group fly?" Which suggests to me that the answer to that most of the time would be "no please don't." And since the answer will likely be no, people don't ask. They just use it. And then get upset when others are irritated by it. But that is just me musing aloud.

 

Both sides of the topic can be rude about it. Personally, I say its team leaders call. If they say yes, then use it. if they say no, then don't. If you don't like them saying no, you can leave. If I am not okay with them saying yes, then I can leave.

 

But let's not pretend that any and all people who use group fly are the "victims" here. I use group fly myself, when solo. Rarely used in teams unless the mission/tf needs it. But some people absolutely REFUSE to turn it off, regardless of how others are affected. Which is sort of why it causes many people to cringe when it's used. That, and many other people just plain don't like it.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

All right.  I think that all of these group fly discussions involving Gravitus have run their course.  Let's talk about something else.