What's your take?

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, JasperStone said:

Here is an old reddit link

That's some serious search-fu. 


The only time pvpers annoy me is when I'm trying to get the nuke. I do not want my codes stolen after all that hassle. Fortunately, while I don't like pvp, most of my characters are somewhat suited for it. The problem is usually only having one travel power. 

[Kaika]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

That's some serious search-fu. 


The only time pvpers annoy me is when I'm trying to get the nuke. I do not want my codes stolen after all that hassle. Fortunately, while I don't like pvp, most of my characters are somewhat suited for it. The problem is usually only having one travel power. 

To be fair, thats the entire reason why they are so powerful, but it's such a hassle to get them, to encourage players to steal them from each other.

[Ultimo]

I've always been of the opinion that PvP doesn't work in open world games, like MMOs.  The reason is that there's so many things people might be doing in the game that doesn't involve PvP.  Someone might be fishing, or doing a quest, or mining a crafting node, or what have you.  PvP only really works in games where combat is all there is, so there's not really anything else anyone will be doing.  Games like Battlefield, Halo and so on work fine, because there's nothing else in those games but combat.

 

For example, Elder Scrolls Online has a specific PvP zone, Cyrodiil.  Players who go there are all targets.  The problem with that is that there's a TON of other stuff IN that zone that players might be doing that have nothing to do with combat.  There are quests, badges, dungeons, skyshards, and more.  People doing these things will be in NO position to fight back, and so it defeats the purpose of PvP: COMPETITION.

 

City of Heroes is an open world game, much like other MMOs, but it's really just combat.  If you go into Siren's Call, there's nothing else going on in there that you might be doing, that would prevent you being able to fight back.  So, I think it's fair to say anyone in the zone is fair game.

 

My experience of PvP in City of Heroes was almost entirely negative, however.  99% of the time, you were instantly obliterated by a Stalker without warning, or locked down and unable to fight back by a Controller or Dominator.  There's just not any fun in that.  It got to a point where the ONLY people in the PvP zones were Stalkers waiting around invisible for someone to victimize.  It just didn't work out.

[Hyperstrike]

"Which is the most poweful hero"?

WHOEVER THE WRITER WANTS TO WIN!

Meaning PVP is a cheat to make it work.

[Techwright]

8 hours ago, Gravitus said:

If you traverse a PVP zone for reasons other than PVP and do not wish to fight other players, does etiquette dictate they leave you alone when you request it? Or are you just fair game and too bad so sad?  

My etiquette requires wiping the blade of the last victim's blood before striking another.  Less chance of infection that way.

 

 

Joking aside, if you want to do non-PvP stuff in a PvP zone, might Grant Invisibility from an Empowerment Station help?  Or is that only for PvE fights?  I've not tested it in PvP, since I've not been to a PvP zone in at least 4 years.

[lemming]

1 minute ago, Techwright said:

My etiquette requires wiping the blade of the last victim's blood before striking another.  Less chance of infection that way.

 

Joking aside, if you want to do non-PvP stuff in a PvP zone, might Grant Invisibility from an Empowerment Station help?  Or is that only for PvE fights?  I've not tested it in PvP, since I've not been to a PvP zone in at least 4 years.

I think you need something else now.

 

I sometimes will do PvP zone missions and the like (warheads and or I'm being ocd about exploration badges).

 

I will sometimes ask someone to back off, but if they don't.  I just leave most of the time.  I can always come back later.  Though one time friends and I were doing something, someone started on us and after asking them "Could you not?", had another friend enter on their side to be a spotter and whacked them a dozen times.

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

I've always been of the opinion that PvP doesn't work in open world games, like MMOs.  The reason is that there's so many things people might be doing in the game that doesn't involve PvP.  Someone might be fishing, or doing a quest, or mining a crafting node, or what have you.  PvP only really works in games where combat is all there is, so there's not really anything else anyone will be doing.  Games like Battlefield, Halo and so on work fine, because there's nothing else in those games but combat.

 

For example, Elder Scrolls Online has a specific PvP zone, Cyrodiil.  Players who go there are all targets.  The problem with that is that there's a TON of other stuff IN that zone that players might be doing that have nothing to do with combat.  There are quests, badges, dungeons, skyshards, and more.  People doing these things will be in NO position to fight back, and so it defeats the purpose of PvP: COMPETITION.

 

City of Heroes is an open world game, much like other MMOs, but it's really just combat.  If you go into Siren's Call, there's nothing else going on in there that you might be doing, that would prevent you being able to fight back.  So, I think it's fair to say anyone in the zone is fair game.

 

My experience of PvP in City of Heroes was almost entirely negative, however.  99% of the time, you were instantly obliterated by a Stalker without warning, or locked down and unable to fight back by a Controller or Dominator.  There's just not any fun in that.  It got to a point where the ONLY people in the PvP zones were Stalkers waiting around invisible for someone to victimize.  It just didn't work out.

To be fair alot of that was only in the early days of pvp. Stalkers were a problem early on but there were counters to them in the game though not a huge amount but many were quickly added, people just took a while to catch on to them.  If you could see a stalker, they were effectively a really weak brute unless they really knew what they were doing. I'm not saying this wasn't and isn't a problem though, eventually people figured out how much burst damage blasters could output and now you have the same issue but from a mile away.

 

I disagree with the statement that pvp can't work in this kinda situation, I've had alot of fun in games like this, I used to live in sirens back on justice, and played WoW, Rift, Warhammer, and GW2 in open world pvp rather often. I think this issue really is that it's something that not alot of people enjoy, and by it's nature can be unwelcoming to players new to it. It doesn't help that alot of people simply see it as a excuse to grief people but, thats part of the point. PvP zones are about the human experience in a way, you have freedom to approach it however you choose within the establish rules of the game, which are usually extremely loose (no cheating, no gamer words, no legitimately harassing people), everything else goes, you are free to be to villain of the game that everyone hates, or the hero who protects and teaches the new players. Everyone who enjoys these sorta systems usually have boatloads of story's to tell about the players they knew, and battles that happened.

 

It's not really a thing in most MMOs these days because it's niche, and it often faces players with a reality/ego check they aren't ready for, that they don't know nearly as much about the game as they thought they did. They die once to a player who's put way more hours into it, declare it terrible and unfun content only played by jerks, and never touch it again. For the players that enjoy it however it very much does work, with a air of unpredictability that you just can't get pure pvp arena style games. Games like Elden Ring with it's invasion system and Sea of Thieves are pretty good modern examples of open world pve goals and content mixed with pvp working well, it's just not for everyone.

Edited September 27 by Kaika

[Ultimo]

19 minutes ago, Kaika said:

To be fair alot of that was only in the early days of pvp. Stalkers were a problem early on but there were counters to them in the game though not a huge amount but many were quickly added, people just took a while to catch on to them.  If you could see a stalker, they were effectively a really weak brute unless they really knew what they were doing. I'm not saying this wasn't and isn't a problem though, eventually people figured out how much burst damage blasters could output and now you have the same issue but from a mile away.

 

I disagree with the statement that pvp can't work in this kinda situation, I've had alot of fun in games like this, I used to live in sirens back on justice, and played WoW, Rift, Warhammer, and GW2 in open world pvp rather often. I think this issue really is that it's something that not alot of people enjoy, and by it's nature can be unwelcoming to players new to it. It doesn't help that alot of people simply see it as a excuse to grief people but, thats part of the point. PvP zones are about the human experience in a way, you have freedom to approach it however you choose within the establish rules of the game, which are usually extremely loose (no cheating, no gamer words, no legitimately harassing people), everything else goes, you are free to be to villain of the game that everyone hates, or the hero who protects and teaches the new players. Everyone who enjoys these sorta systems usually have boatloads of story's to tell about the players they knew, and battles that happened.

 

It's not really a thing in most MMOs these days because it's niche, and it often faces players with a reality/ego check they aren't ready for, that they don't know nearly as much about the game as they thought they did. They die once to a player who's put way more hours into it, declare it terrible and unfun content only played by jerks, and never touch it again. For the players that enjoy it however it very much does work, with a air of unpredictability that you just can't get pure pvp arena style games. Games like Elden Ring with it's invasion system and Sea of Thieves are pretty good modern examples of the pve goals and content mixed with pvp working well, it's just not for everyone.

I think you misunderstood one of my points, and that's my fault.  I mean that PvP can work in THIS game, because it's just combat.  There's nothing else to distract players in the PvP zone.  No quests, no crafting nodes, nothing but the PvP.

 

Games that try to impose PvP on players who aren't there for PvP, who are trying to do other things, can't work.  Think of it this way:

 

WHY do people want PvP?  When I've asked this of PvPers in the past, they almost always say they want more capable enemies.  They want the challenge, the competition.

Unfortunately, open world games with anything other than combat in them put a host of players out there who CANNOT be a challenge, who cannot provide any competition.

 

A wrinkle in this is that many PvPers go out of their way to AVOID challenging foes, specifically targeting players who cannot fight back.  They say they want a challenge but do everything they can to avoid it.  They're really little more than griefers, out to ruin someone else's fun.  They may be a minority of PvPers, but they're the ones the PvE players are going to encounter, as all the people actually looking for a challenge are off fighting each other, and not attacking the defenseless people.  Only the bullies and griefers do that.

 

Again, that's not an issue here (and I apologize for drifting a bit off topic), as THIS game is all combat.  As with Halo or Battlefield, or any of the other FPS games, everyone in the zone is there for just one purpose... and so it can work... conceptually at least.  My experience of it here has been always that one player doesn't get to fight back, either because they're instantly obliterated by a Stalker who alpha strikes, then placates, then alpha strikes again, or permanently locked down by a Controller or Dominator.

[Ultimo]

I should say, one of my ONLY enjoyable PvP moments did come by way of City of Heroes.  Let me share!

 

Back in the day, in Bloody Bay, I think it was, there was a small barge at a dock where players would gather and duel.  It was always one on one, and other players would stand around watching, and waiting their turn.  I never really competed, but I liked to watch.  There was an unwritten rule that spectators were NOT to be attacked.

However, one day, while playing my Bots/FF Mastermind, Lord Dire, a Scrapper decided to attack me.  Perhaps he didn't realize my PFF was on.  His attack set my bots on him, so he tried to run away, but I was game to go after him.  My bots were battering him, so he thought he'd get away by flying, but I had Group Fly, and my bots and I followed him into the air.  He thought he might separate me from by bots by outdistancing them (Group Fly had a range limit then), and I let him think he'd outwitted me.  My bots fell, and he came after me again.  However, I had anticipated this, and flew higher and higher, until finally I dropped my PFF and hit him with Air Superiority.  He plummeted to the ground where my bots were waiting, and he dropped to almost no health as I swooped in for the kill.  JUST as I got there, however, another player blindsided me, and basically oneshotted me before I could finish off the Scrapper.

 

It was a fun fight because of the strategic aspect of it.  He tried to escape, but I countered his plans, so he tried to trick me into making myself vulnerable, but I turned the tables and put him on the ropes.  THAT was fun.  The back and forth, the trying of different tactics and strategies.  The guy who flew in and oneshotted me at the end... there was nothing TO that fight.  It was no fun, though it was kind of thematic, a hero swooping in to save his ally at the literal last second.

 

 

Actually, this is something I've tried to explain about other aspects of the game.  When a fight is over in an instant, there's no GAME to play... no clever tactics, no ingenious strategies.... just instantly overwhelming force, and that's just bland and unenjoyable... at least to me.

[Lunar Ronin]

 

 

[Kaika]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

I think you misunderstood one of my points, and that's my fault.  I mean that PvP can work in THIS game, because it's just combat.  There's nothing else to distract players in the PvP zone.  No quests, no crafting nodes, nothing but the PvP.

 

Those "Distractions" are entirely what makes this kinda content interesting and what serve to get players into this kinda content in the first place. I do agree that it should never be "Forced" things like villain accolades requiring entering a pvp zone was a stupid move. However those quest/node/whatever serve to get you into the zone, they are the carrot on the stick to get you to try it and the rewards for sticking it out, often you don't even NEED to pvp to get them, just risk encountering it.

 

Quote

Games that try to impose PvP on players who aren't there for PvP, who are trying to do other things, can't work. 

Elden Ring is a fairly good example of this working. People summon Co-op players to help them with difficult sections of the game and having another player with you provides a MASSIVE boost in power, however it opens you up to pvp, something you wouldn't do if the reward wasn't so worth it. This exposes players to pvp who otherwise wouldn't, and to many it seems like just a obstruction added to the co-op mode, which gets these players to try to find ways to combat it, and just like that a PvEr is engaging with PvP in a meaningful way by just trying to overcome a problem between them and their co-op. This often leads to them deciding to help with co-op as helping people is fairly fun, and by doing that they engage in more pvp, learn more about it better tactics, until suddenly, you aren't scared anymore when a invader shows up, your looking forward to seeing if your new build works. By trying to stop the invader from ending your co-op, you've basically become a pvper. This goes on until maybe you decide it's a good idea to learn more about how invaders work and you try it out.... and its fun. This is the core pipeline of the Elden Ring co-op/invasion system, a system people use for mainly by people just trying to PvE, which has lead to a fairly thriving pvp community.

 

Quote

WHY do people want PvP?  When I've asked this of PvPers in the past, they almost always say they want more capable enemies.  They want the challenge, the competition.

Unfortunately, open world games with anything other than combat in them put a host of players out there who CANNOT be a challenge, who cannot provide any competition.

 

A wrinkle in this is that many PvPers go out of their way to AVOID challenging foes, specifically targeting players who cannot fight back.  They say they want a challenge but do everything they can to avoid it.  They're really little more than griefers, out to ruin someone else's fun.  They may be a minority of PvPers, but they're the ones the PvE players are going to encounter, as all the people actually looking for a challenge are off fighting each other, and not attacking the defenseless people.  Only the bullies and griefers do that.

 

Ugh this. Look honestly answer like that are more the kind that sound cool, pvp is big on individualism and self expression and people tend to say stuff like that. I'll give you a honest answer of why I like this kinda pvp: There is nothing quite like the thrill of facing down a unpredictable thinking being, in a unpredictable environment. Hunting down and setting up the prefect kill on a target, while trying to make sure they aren't aware of me until the time is right. Watching their behavior to gauge how much knowledge they have and how much of a threat they are, and ensuring they can't get away once it starts. Challenge is part of it, but it's more nuanced then that, it's more that it's hard to predict where things will go when you target can think, and you aren't quite sure what their goal is. Sometimes your the hunter, and sometimes you're the hunted, and and you never know when a third or forth party will show up and change everything. This is the contract you sign when you walk past all those warnings into the pvp zone. This is why they try to add incentives that pve players would be interested and only require exposing yourself to pvp as there is a huge learning curve no matter what you do, the more your expose to it, the more you learn how to handle it.

 

Quote

Again, that's not an issue here (and I apologize for drifting a bit off topic), as THIS game is all combat.  As with Halo or Battlefield, or any of the other FPS games, everyone in the zone is there for just one purpose... and so it can work... conceptually at least.  My experience of it here has been always that one player doesn't get to fight back, either because they're instantly obliterated by a Stalker who alpha strikes, then placates, then alpha strikes again, or permanently locked down by a Controller or Dominator.

 

Honestly this is kinda still on topic, since badges are incentive to expose players to pvp. Games like Halo or battlefield can't replicate this experience simply because everything is very clear, everyone has a clear goal and objectives. They are really set up more like sports, everyone is there for the same reason, side are supposed to be evenly balanced, and objectives are made clear. It leads to a much more predictable experience. Look I'm not gonna defend the pvp balance in the game, it's never been good, however everything you listed there has counters accessible by all players if you know what to do and care to find them. While I really enjoyed zone pvp in CoH it wasn't very well designed, I can understand why you would see it this way if this was your first exposure to pvp content like this, but the principles it was built on CAN very much work. I stand by my point earlier, it's just not for everyone, and you are very clearly one of the people it's not for, and that's fine.

Edited September 27 by Kaika

[JasperStone]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

That's some serious search-fu. 


The only time pvpers annoy me is when I'm trying to get the nuke. I do not want my codes stolen after all that hassle. Fortunately, while I don't like pvp, most of my characters are somewhat suited for it. The problem is usually only having one travel power. 

It was part of a research project lol.

 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I actually like the PVP in this game, and I've often gone into PVP zones to do some of the missions there, because they offer significant benefits in the PVE game.

 

It can be annoying if you get ganked there but there's a simple work around: Leave and come back when the zone is empty, which is most days with a Y in them.

 

But, if you walk into the zone, then you know what could happen. It's on you if what could happen does happen.

 

But remember ultimately it's just a game. Nobody really dies, and the only think you will actually lose in doing it is time.

[UltraAlt]

13 hours ago, Gravitus said:

f you traverse a PVP zone for reasons other than PVP and do not wish to fight other players, does etiquette dictate they leave you alone when you request it?

 

No. You are in a PvP zone.

 

13 hours ago, Gravitus said:

Or are you just fair game and too bad so sad?  

 

Yes. That is what PvP is about.

If you don't want to PvP, don't go to a PvP zone.

 

But at the same time, if you are on one of the less busy servers you will probably find your character to be the only character in most of the PVP zones.

 

I have been to PvP zones several times on Homecoming and every one of those times, there was no one in the zone except for my character and my team mates ... if I'm on a team at the time.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

People doing these things will be in NO position to fight back, and so it defeats the purpose of PvP: COMPETITION.

 

It depends on the person.

To some players, the whole point of PvP is to defeat other players characters. They don't care if it is a fair fight. They don't care what the other player is doing. They just want to defeat other characters ... and - to them - hopefully, get to take all their stuff.

 

4 hours ago, Ultimo said:

WHY do people want PvP?

 

You might was well be asking why playing Street Fighter against live opponents is fun (or any of the bizillion "fighter" games)

 

Long long ago, in a living room not really so many miles away, 2 of my brothers and I would play Street Fighter 2 on a Sega Genesis for hours on Saturday mornings.

The rules were simple.

Two of us would fight. Whoever lost would give up the controller to the one sitting out.

If the winner beat both, they had to play another character.

 

Why did we PvP? Because we enjoyed it. It was fun. 

 

That being said, Street Fighter 2's various characters are much more balanced than CoH PvP will ever be.

 

 

Edited September 27 by UltraAlt

[Neiska]

I generally go by the saying - “know the water you choose to swim in.”

 

If you are in a pvp zone, you are in essence consenting to it with your presence. You can “ask” others to leave you be, but it’s ultimately their choice. If they want to pvp, it’s certainly within their prerogative to do so.

 

Another way I think of it as a non-pvper, is that if I’m in a pvp zone, I’m a guest in “their” house, or on “their” turf. Now, I have pvp’d before, but mostly it’s just goofing off with friends, chasing each other with wifflebats and the like. 
 

But the good news is, is the penalty for losing pvp is nonexistent. You can immediately respawn and leave if it’s not your bag. And the few times I have gotten involved with the pvpers it honestly wasn’t an unpleasant experience. I feel kind of bad for them at times, as far as I’m aware there has been next to zero pvp things added on HC. (I could certainly be mistaken here, not a pvper.)

 

It might be neat if there was a tournament or league for those players to participate in. Like something that resets every few months and they could win titles or something.

 

 

[ZacKing]

18 hours ago, Excraft said:

I will say that the overwhelming majority of PvPers I've run into in RV are very cool.  Once they kill me, I'll send them a tell and let them know I'm just there for a badge or whatever and most are very cool about it.  There's one or two complete dicks, but most are very friendly.

 

This is my experience as well.  The one or two that are dicks are enormous dicks though lol.  For the most part, if you ask another player to leave you be they will more often than not leave you alone.  I've had a couple of occasions where they actually helped with pill boxes and such for badges.

[tidge]

7 hours ago, JasperStone said:

It was part of a research project lol.

 

I feel like a better research project would involve "post hoc rationalizations for being a ****."

[Gravitus]

Ha you fools! You fell into my trap! This post was a trojan horse for GF!

 

How you going to sit there and be ok with PVP killing at will, citing it as part of the game but not extend the same logic to GF when you have Null available? 

 

 

[Gravitus]

58 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

 

It might be neat if there was a tournament or league for those players to participate in. Like something that resets every few months and they could win titles or something.

 

 

There's one guy going around on Excelsior in RV at random times recently, offering 100mil to who can ever beat him. 

[MoonSheep]

8 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

Ha you fools! You fell into my trap! This post was a trojan horse for GF!

 

How you going to sit there and be ok with PVP killing at will, citing it as part of the game but not extend the same logic to GF when you have Null available? 

 

haha, that is quite funny

 

there’s a key difference between group fly and PvP though - some people like PvP 😉

[Gravitus]

6 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

haha, that is quite funny

 

there’s a key difference between group fly and PvP though - some people like PvP 😉

i know....just being silly....but......

[JKCarrier]

11 hours ago, Kaika said:

 

Elden Ring is a fairly good example of this working. People summon Co-op players to help them with difficult sections of the game and having another player with you provides a MASSIVE boost in power, however it opens you up to pvp, something you wouldn't do if the reward wasn't so worth it.

You gotta wonder: If PvP is so fun, why do devs have to go to such great lengths to trick/coerce players into doing it?

[Kaika]

28 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

You gotta wonder: If PvP is so fun, why do devs have to go to such great lengths to trick/coerce players into doing it?

Because it's hard to get into. You're entering into a place where experience is key, and you are entering with little to none. In open world/PvPvE content by nature it's difficult to impossible to ensure you will find players near your skill level, so it helps to offer some secondary goal that doesn't require good pvp skills to obtain, or some way to even out the odds, so a player doesn't leave empty handed. Elden Ring is a really good example of this done well, as the Host has a MASSIVE advantage over the invader, they are always a higher level, they get twice as much healing resources and they have access to powerful great runes that the invaders don't get, and thats before we consider that they will always outnumber the invader. This is done to smooth over the process and in a way that evens out the playing field. Even if you get REALLY good at pvp in those games, it's very easy to just get caught between two players and a wall and get blended. Even if you can't take out the invader you can always use your back up to speed-run to the next checkpoint or boss door(which send the invader home), which to alot of players would be considered a win.

 

This is why rewards in PvP zones in CoH tend to be very strong but don't really require you to ever touch another player, it allows you to avoid pvp as a practical way to obtain these rewards, which in a way trains you on how to get into the heads of other players and think in pvp way. It's just not really well designed and the games balance has always been atrocious.

Edited September 27 by Kaika

[Mopery]

So here's what you do, see?

You tell General Chat that you're going to <Name of PVP Zone>, be sure you're anonymous, then go to the real PVP zone you want the badges in.

If there are any PVP'ers out there, they'll go to the zone you "accidentally" told General about, and miss you completely. 😁