How to fix Storm Summoning; A Hot Take

[ValiantBlu]

Hi there

Before I get into the meat, just a little background

If you don't care about all this, skip to the numbered list 

 

On live my first character was a Gravity/Storm Troller... everyone hated me

And for good reason, I was a 10 year old, this was my first MMO

And I loved ragdolls

I don't think I need to say much else ❤️ 

 

I've tried storm on other toons as well but at that time I just wanted to do damage and quickly learned that Controllers and Defenders were not the AT for me

 

I went on to play other games and since then I've primarily settled into support and tank roles in most games I play. There's still that little piece of me that wants damage, but I no longer feel like I have a purpose on a team unless I'm bringing some utility, so when I returned to CoH shortly before the servers shut down, ATs like Corrupter and Brute were exactly perfect for me. 

 

Anyways coming back to HC, playing on and off, there's always two toons I come back to

My energy/energy Brute (which I will one day reroll as an Energy/Invul Brute)

My storm/storm Corrupter

 

I love my Corr

And this time, I decided I would play responsibly

I slotted SA into all of my knock abilities, no senseless knockback here, this set is basically just soft CC and I'm here for it

But the more I played this toon, I just feel like slotting knockdown in everything... handicaps it

So... yes it's impossible to screw over the team if you remove all knockback

But now you're building around this one enhancement, and putting it everywhere, I can't get all the set bonuses I want

Plus some enemies just straight up don't care about <1Mag knocks, it became really apparent on tornado, I cast it and some enemies are just completely unaffected, it sucks.

 

So I started experimenting with KB in group settings, slowing taking SA out of my kit and trying out different ways to utilize KB to benefit the team. It felt like learning to ride a bike without training wheels. Yes, you fall and hurt yourself (or in this case your team) but it's part of the process and the more you do it the less you fall. 

 

The more I use the set without SA the more I'm convinced that it is definitely a handicap. You're meant to push enemies into walls and corners, use the environment to group them, debuff them, and then nuke them. You're meant to corral them and set up big damage plays for yourself and your teammates.

 

269 hours and a handful of respecs later, I'm very pleased with this build, it's challenging but I'm able to consistently solo +4 x8 content with... let's say controlled chaos

In groups I'm very careful about my positioning and never fire a knockback unless I know it will benefit the team

I mean... when I think I know, I still screw up sometimes, but I'm never just careless

Sometimes I find teams that adapt to my playstyle and we are able to shove enemies into corners all day and go to work on them

Sometimes I find teams that can't adapt and that's fine too, I have to adapt too sometimes

 

The issue is, my way of adapting w/out SA is often holding back. I end up ignoring about half my kit. The set is based around positioning enemies just as much as it's based around debuffing them; but virtually no teams play in a way that benefits from storm's strategy. People don't round enemies up into corners they start mosh pits in the center of the room. Some may adapt, but others won't and they shouldn't have to. So you're left with 2 options if you don't slot SA. Force everyone else to play around you (which is selfish and unfun), or spend so much time being cautious that you would have contributed more to the team on any other power set.

 

And we're right back to square one. I'm handicapping myself. There's simply no way to play Storm to it's max capability in a team setting unless your team is willing to play around you. Slotting SA makes your knocks less effective against the enemies that actually need to be knocked, and prevents you from forcing enemies into an ideal position, but not slotting it forces you to pull your punches in most teams.

 

Set needs a rework, here's what I'm proposing:

1. Add a Toggle ability. We'll call this "Low Pressure System."
   Low Pressure System (LPS) changes the attributes of your wind-related powers
   This ability will replace Thunder Clap
   It will also be the 3rd ability, Snow Storm will become the 7th
2. By default Gale will Knock Back
   With LPS toggled, gale will Knock To (the player)
3. O2 Boost will be buffed
   In addition to cleansing stuns and sleeps it will now cleanse: confuse, fear, taunt, and immobilize
4. Snow Storm will now have a fear component
   Low magnitude and duration, but balanced to maintain the same functionality as Thunder Clap (should have ~100% fear uptime on minions when fully slotted)
5. By default, Hurricane will repel
   With LPS toggled Hurricane will attract (similar to how enemies are pulled towards singularity)
   Hurricane will also begin repelling or attracting at the start of the cast animation; however the animation still can not be interrupted
6. By default, Tornado will Knock Back (previously Knock Up)
   With LPS toggled Tornado will Knock To (the tornado)
   Tornado will also have its movement speed reduced to roughly the same speed as the walk toggle, making this pet more predictable/manageable
   To compensate, its effective radius will be improved; bringing it in line with most standard auras
   The base knock magnitude will be reduced, however. Enemies will remain in your jurisdiction without any knock enhancements
7. Profit

I think these changes would benefit the set by improving its versatility and accessibility.

Anyone who dislikes the idea of LPS can always stick with their current build (unless they took Thunder Clap) and just leave SA slotted in there.

Anyone not wanting to use SA can have a more versatile build that can utilize knocks more strategically and less delicately.

 

I've only discussed this with one other person and the only rebuttals were that Snow Storm would be worse since Fear makes enemies scatter, and more knocks would make storm a more annoying set when used by most randoms. But Snow Storm already applies panic which makes enemies scatter. This would just make them unable to attack while scattering unless you attack them first; that combined with the LPS enhanced wind powers like Tornado and Hurricane enemies shouldn't be scattering unless you allow it. As for the increased knocks, LPS would pull enemies closer together rather than disperse them, even if done carelessly. At least this would give randoms the chance to accidentally benefit their team. It was for these reasons I was more concerned that the proposed changes would overtune the set.

 

That said, that's only two perspectives, I'm certain the rest of you will have more to say, feel free to discuss

I'm open to defending this stance, and I'm willing to entertain the idea that I'm wrong

I just know I love my storm summoner but I often wonder why I'm not playing a more useful set and... that feels bad

[Greycat]

... ok, after reading through it.... (and not numbered in order)

 

1,  No thanks, Do not change tornado to knockback. This is not a "I hate knockback" - I think players really kind of overly whine about it, people need to learn to *use* their knockback to *help* the team, not just fire it off because it's up. The one place I *do not* want KB, though, is in pets.

 

Players can learn to use KB effectively. Pets (and things like tornado) *cannot.* Even MM minions which you can (theoretically) tell to go to a certain place are awful with KB use. Pets are the only place I *do* encourage people to put a KB-KD IO, for the most part.

 

Honestly... don't change Tornado at all.

 

2, No, fear in snow storm would be awful. The reason enemies start to run *now* is that the built in -rech means they have no attacks to use, and they have nothing else to do. Yes, *an* attack or two might come out - but we don't need to have them start scattering sooner.

 

3. Also no thanks to getting rid of thunder clap. It's a very useful stun. And getting rid of it for a vastly different power is what a lot of what you're looking for is predicated on.

 

4. Also... hurricanes are not known for attracting. And honestly, I don't *want* to have enemies drawn in towards a squishy character.

 

5. O2 boost... eh? I don't see why it would clear an immob, but other than that... *shrug*

 

 

Honestly, I think instead of reworking a perfectly fine set in Storm, this should be a kernel of some new set. Magnetic, interstellar, something themed along those lines.  (Yes, I'm thinking more black holes than actual stars for the second. You want to pull stuff in, they're great at it. Single target "feed the maw," Acretion Disk which - if the vectoring mechanic the devs were playing with allowed it - could have enemies being dragged along some radius doing a -tohit and fire/energy damage, Stellar Jet to fling enemies outward (not as an AOE, but a very focused direction) also taking Smashing and fire or energy (radiation) damage, which would have the side effect of being able to very directionally reposition mobs...

 

There are ideas there to play with. I just don't think "let's redo storm" is the place to start.

[arcane]

I’m sorry you put all that effort into typing. You can pry the current iteration of Storm Summoning from my cold dead hands.

[Uun]

I disagree with your premise. There's nothing wrong with Storm Summoning as it exists today. I currently have a Gravity/Storm controller and a Storm/Storm corruptor, both T4. (I also had a lvl 50 Storm/Rad defender on live before IOs existed.) The only power I slot kb>kd in is Tornado. I am in no way handicapped, nor do I hold back on teams. Storm does NOT need to be "fixed".

[Heatstroke]

Absolutely Not. Storm Summoning is absolutely fine the way it is.

 

Ice/Storm Controller

Fire/Storm Controller

Plant/Storm Contoller

Ice/Storm Defender

Storm/Storm Corruptor

Water/Storm Corruptor

 

STOEM IS JUST FINE  !!!!

[Psyonico]

I think your premise is flawed.

 

You're concerned about not using the whole set all the time, but that's kind of the point.  You have different tools for different scenarios.

 

Also, pushing Snow Storm to t7 would cripple low level stormies.  Before Freezing Rain has a couple of recharges in it, Snow Storm is one of your best mitigation tools, so Storm Corruptors and Masterminds would suffer pre-16

[ValiantBlu]

12 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I think your premise is flawed.

 

You're concerned about not using the whole set all the time, but that's kind of the point.  You have different tools for different scenarios.

 

Also, pushing Snow Storm to t7 would cripple low level stormies.  Before Freezing Rain has a couple of recharges in it, Snow Storm is one of your best mitigation tools, so Storm Corruptors and Masterminds would suffer pre-16

I disagree with snow storm. Obnoxious endurance drain, meh slow (which slow is already a meh effect). Its best purpose is -fly and thats niche. 
 

But even entertaining your point. Can’t balance a set around pre-16 gameplay. Blink and it’s over. 

[ValiantBlu]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I’m sorry you put all that effort into typing. You can pry the current iteration of Storm Summoning from my cold dead hands.

Okay so the only thing I’m proposing it loses is thunderclap the rest are objectively buffs

 

is thunderclap that important?

[ValiantBlu]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

I disagree with your premise. There's nothing wrong with Storm Summoning as it exists today. I currently have a Gravity/Storm controller and a Storm/Storm corruptor, both T4. (I also had a lvl 50 Storm/Rad defender on live before IOs existed.) The only power I slot kb>kd in is Tornado. I am in no way handicapped, nor do I hold back on teams. Storm does NOT need to be "fixed".

I suspect you have a 1 star rating with a lot of players

 

and I’m not saying that to be cute. If you’re not slotting SA and not holding back even a little on your teams, you have a lot of very frustrated teammates, even if they don’t say anything I guarantee it.
 

Might even be doing a fantastic job and they’re still mad about it. 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, ValiantBlu said:

I disagree with snow storm. Obnoxious endurance drain, meh slow (which slow is already a meh effect). Its best purpose is -fly and thats niche.

 

 

Not just slow. -Recharge. As in, they don't get their attacks back as quickly, and so can't attack YOU as much.

Which, as mentioned, is why they start to (slowly, you might notice) run. And even when they do try to run (again, slowly,) they're still generally gathered up as they were and can be knocked back together... say, with gale or hurricane.

 

I think you undervalue snow storm.

 

If I had to put anything in snow storm, it wouldn't be a fear. It'd be a -tohit. After all, it'd be harder for them to see. They're *in a snow storm.* But, frankly, it doesn't need it.

[Luminara]

Storm Summoning is a debuff/damage set, a defender primary and controller/corruptor/mastermind secondary, not a control set, so your proposed changes are inappropriate for the set as a whole.  If you want to use it as a control set, go for it, but I sincerely doubt it will be redesigned into a control set, no matter how hard you campaign for it.  A new storm-related control set, possible, but not a revamp.

 

It definitely doesn't need to be buffed, either.  It's ridiculously strong already.

 

1 hour ago, ValiantBlu said:

If you’re not slotting SA and not holding back even a little on your teams, you have a lot of very frustrated teammates, even if they don’t say anything I guarantee it.

 

Like @Psyonico, I also have an Incarnated Storm/Storm corruptor, and I also don't have Sudden Acceleration in anything on my Storm/Storm.  I didn't take Hurricane or Gale because I didn't need them.  Ever.  Not even while leveling.  Lightning Storm's KB is only mag 1, barely a butt skid, and easily positioned to knock into the floor, so it doesn't need -KB.  I did slot Tornado with the Overwhelming Force proc, but I don't consider that a waste or "tax" because it adds damage and more KD, and allowed me to slot the Acc/Rchg from Expedient Reinforcement instead of the Acc/Dam, so it's recharging more quickly without losing anything.  Win win.

 

Your slotting grievances and/or teammate troubles are a result of your choices and your play style, not the set's requirements or impositions.  Talking down to those who don't suffer from your problems doesn't make you right, it just emphasizes your ignorance.

[ValiantBlu]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

... ok, after reading through it.... (and not numbered in order)

 

1,  No thanks, Do not change tornado to knockback. This is not a "I hate knockback" - I think players really kind of overly whine about it, people need to learn to *use* their knockback to *help* the team, not just fire it off because it's up. The one place I *do not* want KB, though, is in pets.

 

Players can learn to use KB effectively. Pets (and things like tornado) *cannot.* Even MM minions which you can (theoretically) tell to go to a certain place are awful with KB use. Pets are the only place I *do* encourage people to put a KB-KD IO, for the most part.

 

Honestly... don't change Tornado at all.

 

2, No, fear in snow storm would be awful. The reason enemies start to run *now* is that the built in -rech means they have no attacks to use, and they have nothing else to do. Yes, *an* attack or two might come out - but we don't need to have them start scattering sooner.

 

3. Also no thanks to getting rid of thunder clap. It's a very useful stun. And getting rid of it for a vastly different power is what a lot of what you're looking for is predicated on.

 

4. Also... hurricanes are not known for attracting. And honestly, I don't *want* to have enemies drawn in towards a squishy character.

 

5. O2 boost... eh? I don't see why it would clear an immob, but other than that... *shrug*

 

 

Honestly, I think instead of reworking a perfectly fine set in Storm, this should be a kernel of some new set. Magnetic, interstellar, something themed along those lines.  (Yes, I'm thinking more black holes than actual stars for the second. You want to pull stuff in, they're great at it. Single target "feed the maw," Acretion Disk which - if the vectoring mechanic the devs were playing with allowed it - could have enemies being dragged along some radius doing a -tohit and fire/energy damage, Stellar Jet to fling enemies outward (not as an AOE, but a very focused direction) also taking Smashing and fire or energy (radiation) damage, which would have the side effect of being able to very directionally reposition mobs...

 

There are ideas there to play with. I just don't think "let's redo storm" is the place to start.

Okay so

1) The current iteration of tornado, with no enhancements slotted, will pinball around the room at Mach 1 and launch enemies to the stratosphere so it already has the problem you’re discussing. That’s part of the reason I suggested lowering the magnitude, with a pull effect and an increased radius/decreased movement speed it will gather enemies rather than disperse effectively assisting the tank in herding them up. The push effect can be used the same way but inversely, for example place the tornado behind a mob and approach front the front with hurricane. Enemies will be pinned between both effects. You could use it to separate mobs, say you accidentally pull agro from a separate mob, placing a largely immobile knockback point can keep them at bay while your team cleans up. Runners? Block the door with the tornado. I definitely understand your reservations about giving pets KB but as is, it’s going to do 3 laps around the room and push enemies out of all AoE damage sources and ruin your teams synergy, it’s only useful with SA slotted and even then it turns it into a meh ability. These proposed changes make it more manageable without SA slotted and gives it function without needing to slot a very specific enhancement (which is a clear sign of a bad ability anyways). 
 

2) They already scatter, adding a status effect that makes them scatter doesn’t make it worse. Scattering becomes more manageable as well when combined with other proposed changes

 

3) I also believe Thunder Clap is useful so I can’t argue here. My argument was based more on my perceived popularity of it. It’s not *that* great though if I look at it objectively. Fully slotted it should be virtually 100% uptime on stun but only for minions and those usually die before stun has a chance to be very effective. In teams with low damage output I’m always glad to have it, but in general I don’t need to use it. This is why I recommended adding a CC component to snow storm to still have that ability to prevent enemies from attacking (unless you attack them in this case) because I know what a valuable tool it is. Losing that warrants compensation. 
 

4) hurricanes also aren’t known for pushing, they spin. If the ability were scientifically accurate enemies would orbit you. Also the ability spins clockwise but low pressure systems (like hurricanes) spin counter clockwise (in the northern hemisphere). There’s nothing scientific about this power, it’s just fun. As far as pulling them into a squishy character, the -ToHit combined with where your defense should be should keep you mostly safe. I’ve personally found it difficult to get my storm’s def to an acceptable level but hurricane’s -ToHit is a major compensation for that; but you wouldn’t be meant to use it solo. Solo you can still push enemies back, toggle LPS off if you don’t want them near you. I would still be shoving enemies into corners solo with this rework, it would just allow us to affect more enemies with that -ToHit, right now your best bet is to circle your tanks mosh pit which limits the number of affected enemies. 
 

5) it’s just a niche heal I think it should do more and I prefer buffing secondary components over primary to give abilities identity over others. Giving it more things to cleanse is the natural choice here. Thematically I could do some light mental gymnastics to justify it but I agree immobilize is a weird addition. I just feel that stun and sleep cleansing is too niche, confuse, fear, and taunt cleanse are helpful but still niche, so immobilize was tossed in to make it somewhat useful against just about every faction. Hold cleansing would just be OP. Maybe cleansing slows over immob? I don’t know. Needs something. 
 

im also open to the idea of making a magnetic set based on these principles. I think it would be neat. 
 

and to be clear I don’t think storm is weak I think it’s niche and has a high(er than average) skill floor. Goal wasn’t to buff it much outright, but to make it more versatile. 

[ValiantBlu]

42 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Not just slow. -Recharge. As in, they don't get their attacks back as quickly, and so can't attack YOU as much.

Which, as mentioned, is why they start to (slowly, you might notice) run. And even when they do try to run (again, slowly,) they're still generally gathered up as they were and can be knocked back together... say, with gale or hurricane.

 

I think you undervalue snow storm.

 

If I had to put anything in snow storm, it wouldn't be a fear. It'd be a -tohit. After all, it'd be harder for them to see. They're *in a snow storm.* But, frankly, it doesn't need it.

That’s interesting you say -ToHit I mentioned this in my conversation with my friend and he thought it would be OP. I’m inclined to agree on that one but it would be entirely dependent on how much it reduces ToHit. 
 

would definitely be easy to overtime by mistake. Love the idea though 

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

1) The current iteration of tornado, with no enhancements slotted, will pinball around the room at Mach 1 and launch enemies to the stratosphere so it already has the problem you’re discussing. That’s part of the reason I suggested lowering the magnitude, with a pull effect and an increased radius/decreased movement speed it will gather enemies rather than disperse effectively assisting the tank in herding them up. The push effect can be used the same way but inversely, for example place the tornado behind a mob and approach front the front with hurricane. Enemies will be pinned between both effects. You could use it to separate mobs, say you accidentally pull agro from a separate mob, placing a largely immobile knockback point can keep them at bay while your team cleans up. Runners? Block the door with the tornado. I definitely understand your reservations about giving pets KB but as is, it’s going to do 3 laps around the room and push enemies out of all AoE damage sources and ruin your teams synergy, it’s only useful with SA slotted and even then it turns it into a meh ability. These proposed changes make it more manageable without SA slotted and gives it function without needing to slot a very specific enhancement (which is a clear sign of a bad ability anyways). 

Not the purpose of Tornado. It's job is to inflict damage and keep enemies from fighting. It does that well. Throw in an Overwhelming Force proc and it does it very, very well.

 

9 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

4) hurricanes also aren’t known for pushing, they spin. If the ability were scientifically accurate enemies would orbit you. Also the ability spins clockwise but low pressure systems (like hurricanes) spin counter clockwise (in the northern hemisphere). There’s nothing scientific about this power, it’s just fun. As far as pulling them into a squishy character, the -ToHit combined with where your defense should be should keep you mostly safe. I’ve personally found it difficult to get my storm’s def to an acceptable level but hurricane’s -ToHit is a major compensation for that; but you wouldn’t be meant to use it solo. Solo you can still push enemies back, toggle LPS off if you don’t want them near you. I would still be shoving enemies into corners solo with this rework, it would just allow us to affect more enemies with that -ToHit, right now your best bet is to circle your tanks mosh pit which limits the number of affected enemies. 

What?! If we're talking realism, yes, hurricanes swirl. However, they don't have things orbit in them. They hurl them. Things being moved by the hurricane aren't tethered to you. They are being hurled by the wind. And that means away.

 

9 minutes ago, ValiantBlu said:

5) it’s just a niche heal I think it should do more and I prefer buffing secondary components over primary to give abilities identity over others.

It's a heal. You can heal your pets or allies with it. What is so niche about that? Further, it is a heal that also boosts perception of the healed target and protects against sleep, stun, and endurance drain. So it is a very good ST heal.

 

Edited 5 minutes ago by Rudra
Edited to remove duplicate "being".

[ValiantBlu]

33 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Storm Summoning is a debuff/damage set, a defender primary and controller/corruptor/mastermind secondary, not a control set, so your proposed changes are inappropriate for the set as a whole.  If you want to use it as a control set, go for it, but I sincerely doubt it will be redesigned into a control set, no matter how hard you campaign for it.  A new storm-related control set, possible, but not a revamp.

 

It definitely doesn't need to be buffed, either.  It's ridiculously strong already.

 

 

Like @Psyonico, I also have an Incarnated Storm/Storm corruptor, and I also don't have Sudden Acceleration in anything on my Storm/Storm.  I didn't take Hurricane or Gale because I didn't need them.  Ever.  Not even while leveling.  Lightning Storm's KB is only mag 1, barely a butt skid, and easily positioned to knock into the floor, so it doesn't need -KB.  I did slot Tornado with the Overwhelming Force proc, but I don't consider that a waste or "tax" because it adds damage and more KD, and allowed me to slot the Acc/Rchg from Expedient Reinforcement instead of the Acc/Dam, so it's recharging more quickly without losing anything.  Win win.

 

Your slotting grievances and/or teammate troubles are a result of your choices and your play style, not the set's requirements or impositions.  Talking down to those who don't suffer from your problems doesn't make you right, it just emphasizes your ignorance.

My intention was not to put anyone down so to whom ever you feel I talked down to I sincerely apologize.

 

I don’t have issues with teammates specifically because of my playstyle. I play around my team and I’m consistently reminded by teammates that they don’t even notice the knocks (did I mention I start most fights with Gale). There’s definitely an argument to be made that non-confrontational people don’t want to be rude to me but if that’s the case then I’d recommend looking in the mirror if you’re not slotting SA.
 

Our playstyles are either similar and you and I have different opinions of what walking on eggshells looks like for a storm summoner or you’re blissfully unaware of how disruptive you are to the team. But I don’t mean that to put you down. Everyone is entitled to play the way they want, even if it’s disruptive. Pointing that out, being disruptive to teammates, isn’t putting anyone down though, it’s just the truth. Whether or not you or anyone else wants to swallow that pill is out of my hands. 
 

to the rest of your comment no it’s not a control set but most of the powers are designed to actively and aggressively reposition enemies. None of my proposed changes impact that.

 

I agree it’s ridiculously strong, but solo. None of my proposed buffs make it any stronger solo, only stronger in a team setting. The rest are not buffs nor nerfs just reworks that add versatility in team settings.