HC needs to develop a policy on memorials.

Greycat · December 15

I initially started posting this in the thread about yet another member of the community who passed. I broke this out because - well, one, I don't want to bring it in to a thread with people mourning the loss of a friend, and two, it's a general... thing.

Homecoming's devs/cms/whatever terms you want are going to have to sit down, both with just each other to determine what they're comfortable with, and with the community as a whole, and come up with a solid policy on memorials.

For the longest time, we only had Coyote, and that was because of an influential player in beta the live devs wanted to memorialize because of the impact they made. The closest we had to another "memorial" was Ascendant, and he was still alive (during live - and I'm referring to the occasional NPC conversation going "Ascendant who? You have the wrong number.") Obviously they're now an NPC (and so is Saul.)

There are memorial NPCs for when the servers were underground/secret. There are several memorial NPCs around. I knew some of the players. I have no clue who the others were. And even though I play primarily on Everlasting, I have no clue who this latest person a memorial is being asked for *is.* It always felt weird going to MSRs, for instance, and having Todogut standing there - I have no idea who they are, what they did, or why they're there. But they obviously meant something to some people who could put them in.

And you look down at "Fallen but not forgotten" - which is easy to miss, and you need to be on the forum for - and every one of *those* people meant something to someone. And we've lost others not mentioned anywhere, or long since forgotten. Heck, I had a friend who was literally murdered during live. Anyone know the name or character?

I guess where I'm going with this is I'm very much torn on "memorial NPCs." There are so many who will never have a mention in game. And these so often feel like - well, a popularity contest more than anything - how many people knew you and are willing to speak up on the forum and/or discord? Veracor had people asking because he had 40k vet levels and was leaving HC - he led raids and such constantly on Everlasting, but aside from the fact he didn't even want it, what would that have meant to someone on Torchbearer? Dacy has had an impact - tutorials, youtube videos, etc - with the ins and outs of base building from beginning to advanced. If you don't base build, do you know them? The "secret server" days devs are a big part of the reason we're even able to be here. If something happened to them, do they get NPCs? Heck, I've fought the live devs for changes to Sonic resonance because it was making people physically ill, wrote up the first guides for when AE launched so people could get a handle on it and more... but most of my friends don't bother with the forums or HC discord, so they wouldn't be making a fuss about it aside from among ourselves. Did I make the bar, or would someone just go "I hadn't heard from Greycat in a few months" and leave it at that if I keeled over right now?

I guess, at the end of this long ramble, what I'm asking for is... well, two things.

One. This has been asked for before. Just a *general* memorial people can visit, meant to remember *everyone* who's ever been part of the COH family and passed. Having a place to go, a touchstone to sit and remember - even if their names aren't on it, not all would want that, and there's no way of knowing all the names (and, again, the question of "how tall to ride" would come up) - is helpful when we lose a friend. I don't think, in general, there would be all too much outcry against an "In memoriam."

Two. Devs. Sit down with each other to figure out loosely what you're comfortable with, and sit down and have the conversation with us, the community, about memorials - spots, plaques, NPCs, whatever - for individuals. It *is* a repeated ask for various people, but I do think the conversation needs to be had (and expectations or boundaries set.) It won't be an easy conversation, it'd probably be a heated conversation at times, but if there are going to be *any* NPCs, plaques, renames of anything, etc. - having something that feels ... I hate to use the word fair, maybe "considered?" ... to point to ...

well, you know.

Probably not revisiting the thread, I'm sure there'll be plenty of barbs thrown about this, so... But I think it's a conversation to have.

Edit:

Since these apparently need to be said:

- No. I'm not saying anything for or against Umbra. Or anyone else who's passed.

- If the devs have this discussion, it would make the process transparent to everyone

- If the devs agreed, there'd be a process that would likely *make it easier for your friend to be remembered.*

Edited Monday at 01:26 AM by Greycat

Kistulot · December 15

I think this is a very thoughtful reply to the general situation.

Someone suggested using Echo Plaza for this, dropping down a bunch of npcs of the fallen's characters or some kind of special memorial area attached to it, and honestly, I think that's a good idea. Plaque(s)? Not a bad idea, either.

There are other players that I feel deserve this. It's obvious that Punchy was very important to a large swath of the Everlasting community, and so was Synalon.

I think when I'm gone, if City is still around, some people will be pretty sad but I don't think Argent Girl, the younger Miss Maxima (the former Ruby Masters), or anyone else I've had (like, say, Tunnel Vision) have had the same kind of lasting effect. I've done my best to contribute... but I dont think it's made the experience *different* for people.

Some people though? Definitely have.

Having a spot for all of the fallen ain't a half bad idea, and having some kind of policy isn't, either.

What makes Homecoming special is very much the game, but imho what makes it feel BETTER than live is the way the community has been enhanced. SG bases are open with a code. SG bases can be SO MUCH MORE. SGs can be much bigger. The auction house isnt a terrifying nightmare.

Can't argue that this could use a lookover.

biostem · December 15

I think you touched on some salient point, @Greycat; It's one reason why I suggested having a separate, instanced area where any and all memorials can be placed without impacting the rest of the game. Further, and this is where I think things get contentious - exactly how fondly remembered or popular must someone be to get such treatment? If someone near and dear to me passed away, but only played a handful of times, are they any less deserving of being immortalized than someone who everyone knew and played all the time? If you had the "endless memorial hall", then all requests could be honored, but out in the open world, who or by what criteria is person A granted such special status, but person B is not?

BasiliskXVIII · December 15

5 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think you touched on some salient point, @Greycat; It's one reason why I suggested having a separate, instanced area where any and all memorials can be placed without impacting the rest of the game. Further, and this is where I think things get contentious - exactly how fondly remembered or popular must someone be to get such treatment? If someone near and dear to me passed away, but only played a handful of times, are they any less deserving of being immortalized than someone who everyone knew and played all the time? If you had the "endless memorial hall", then all requests could be honored, but out in the open world, who or by what criteria is person A granted such special status, but person B is not?

And to complicate things further, would someone who was madly passionate about the game but preferred to enjoy it with a dedicated group of friends or solo and didn't engage with the wider community much be less worthy of a monument in the game than one who posts a lot but doesn't play very much?

Psyonico · December 15

@Greycataand @biostemddo a good job summing up my feelings. I don't know and had no known interaction with any of the people who have been memorialized, so my general thought is "what is this invisible bar that must be reached?"

I'm willing to bet there have been some discussions had about this topic by those that maintain HC. But my thought is this should be (relatively) set in stone and the community should be made aware of whatever rules/guidelines have been placed.

My guess is that won't happen though, because the maintainers want to keep wiggle room for the future.

My personal thought? I think there should be something somewhere that serves as a memorial for all and no more NPCs of players should be added to the game. Perhaps a plaque at the base of Statesman's statue in Kallisti? Since that statue is designed to memorialize him, to me, it seems an appropriate place for a memorial for all the fallen. And if KW ever gets populated with mobs? Just encircle the statue with drones so no player that goes there can be griefed.

Glacier Peak · December 15

Monument to the Fallen

"An obelisk was recently erected in Kallisti Wharf and dedicated to all those past and present who may no longer be with us in life, but will forever live on in other worlds."

Edited December 15 by Glacier Peak

biostem · December 15

2 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I think there should be something somewhere that serves as a memorial for all

Kind of a related question - if someone created a SG base, and shared the access code, does that persist when they go offline? Maybe people could create their own memorial SG bases for those they wish to remember, and simply post the access code in a section of these forums...

Psyonico · December 15

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a related question - if someone created a SG base, and shared the access code, does that persist when they go offline? Maybe people could create their own memorial SG bases for those they wish to remember, and simply post the access code in a section of these forums...

Sure, SG bases are always available. I suspect players that are asking for a memorial would like something a bit more official though. Also, SG bases are Shard bound.

I suspect this idea would gain more traction if there were a way to make custom NPCs in base

Arc-Mage · December 15

3 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a related question - if someone created a SG base, and shared the access code, does that persist when they go offline? Maybe people could create their own memorial SG bases for those they wish to remember, and simply post the access code in a section of these forums...

Yes, as long as you have an address you can enter the SG Base and use attached teleports of people who no longer play the game.

ZacKing · December 15

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a related question - if someone created a SG base, and shared the access code, does that persist when they go offline? Maybe people could create their own memorial SG bases for those they wish to remember, and simply post the access code in a section of these forums...

I think this is the best solution. Anything of this nature is going to have to be done by players. As much as I agree with the spirit of the overall suggestion, I don't think the HC folk should spend any time considering adding any kind of memorial area and/or statues/plaques to the game. Plaques with people's names require maintenance to add new names. Nor would any policy they come up with that spells out who is or isn't worthy of remembrance or immortalizing in the game isn't going to satisfy everyone. It would just lead to disappointment, arguments and hurt feelings when someone's friend or loved one isn't deemed "worthy" of inclusion. I think people need to remember this isn't "our" game or "our" server - it's theirs, and if they want to add NPCs into the game of their close friends or family who have passed away, they certainly can. I've no problem with that at all. Yes, it would be really wonderful if everyone who has passed on can get their character immortalized in game, but I don't see that happening. I think engaging with a couple of base builders to put together a memorial space that can be shared would be the best solution. Maybe the HC people could even copy it to each server so it doesn't need to be rebuilt on every shard.

Edited December 15 by ZacKing

Greycat · December 15

38 minutes ago, biostem said:

Kind of a related question - if someone created a SG base, and shared the access code, does that persist when they go offline? Maybe people could create their own memorial SG bases for those they wish to remember, and simply post the access code in a section of these forums...

As long as there's at least one member in the SG, so the SG still exists, then yes. Anyone can enter the base regardless of if a member of that SG is on or not.

Rudra · December 15

This is going to get me called heartless and inhuman, but I have to say it anyway. The issue with memorial NPCs and plaques is where does it end? Who makes the cut? How is that determined? Like @Greycat said, the memorial requests have felt like a popularity contest. How many players have had a positive impact for the community, passed, and not had a request for a memorial? The "Fallen but not Forgotten" forum is nearly two full pages long, so why haven't the bulk of those players had memorial requests? And then there is the bit where players say "everyone knew them" and my response is "everyone knew who? First time I've heard of this person". So I'm rather against adding memorial NPCs and memorial plaques for each person because it is a list that will keep growing with no end in sight.

@Glacier Peak mentioned a generic memorial already erected in Kallisti Wharf, and if it is there, between it and the "Fallen but not Forgotten" forum, I think that should be enough. You already have to be known in the game by the community to even get a post in the "Fallen but not Forgotten" thread, otherwise your passing will go unnoticed. So if only to keep it from being a huge hassle for the devs and to keep from constantly adding more memorial NPCs and plaques, I think that should be enough. If someone wants to make a memorial base though? More power to them. I'm willing to bet most players will still find themselves forgotten or not mentioned, but at least it is not an ever growing project hoisted upon the devs who already have full plates.

Snarky · December 15

Agreed.

Lunar Ronin · December 15

I wish I knew. I just learned less than a hour ago that yet another person I played with from live passed beyond the rim. That makes nearly two dozen people I knew and played City of Heroes with over the years gone now. Some cancer, some disease, some murder, some natural causes. It's just going to get worse.

I wish I knew.

Sorry.

biostem · December 15

Another option is to include the costume or likeness of the person you want to remember in an AE mission - even if it had the minimum to depict said person/character, since you can utilize custom NPCs there...

wjrasmussen · December 15

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

I initially started posting this in the thread about yet another member of the community who passed. I broke this out because - well, one, I don't want to bring it in to a thread with people mourning the loss of a friend, and two, it's a general... thing.

Homecoming's devs/cms/whatever terms you want are going to have to sit down, both with just each other to determine what they're comfortable with, and with the community as a whole, and come up with a solid policy on memorials.

For the longest time, we only had Coyote, and that was because of an influential player in beta the live devs wanted to memorialize because of the impact they made. The closest we had to another "memorial" was Ascendant, and he was still alive (during live - and I'm referring to the occasional NPC conversation going "Ascendant who? You have the wrong number.") Obviously they're now an NPC (and so is Saul.)

There are memorial NPCs for when the servers were underground/secret. There are several memorial NPCs around. I knew some of the players. I have no clue who the others were. And even though I play primarily on Everlasting, I have no clue who this latest person a memorial is being asked for *is.* It always felt weird going to MSRs, for instance, and having Todogut standing there - I have no idea who they are, what they did, or why they're there. But they obviously meant something to some people who could put them in.

And you look down at "Fallen but not forgotten" - which is easy to miss, and you need to be on the forum for - and every one of *those* people meant something to someone. And we've lost others not mentioned anywhere, or long since forgotten. Heck, I had a friend who was literally murdered during live. Anyone know the name or character?

I guess where I'm going with this is I'm very much torn on "memorial NPCs." There are so many who will never have a mention in game. And these so often feel like - well, a popularity contest more than anything - how many people knew you and are willing to speak up on the forum and/or discord? Veracor had people asking because he had 40k vet levels and was leaving HC - he led raids and such constantly on Everlasting, but aside from the fact he didn't even want it, what would that have meant to someone on Torchbearer? Dacy has had an impact - tutorials, youtube videos, etc - with the ins and outs of base building from beginning to advanced. If you don't base build, do you know them? The "secret server" days devs are a big part of the reason we're even able to be here. If something happened to them, do they get NPCs? Heck, I've fought the live devs for changes to Sonic resonance because it was making people physically ill, wrote up the first guides for when AE launched so people could get a handle on it and more... but most of my friends don't bother with the forums or HC discord, so they wouldn't be making a fuss about it aside from among ourselves. Did I make the bar, or would someone just go "I hadn't heard from Greycat in a few months" and leave it at that if I keeled over right now?

I guess, at the end of this long ramble, what I'm asking for is... well, two things.

One. This has been asked for before. Just a *general* memorial people can visit, meant to remember *everyone* who's ever been part of the COH family and passed. Having a place to go, a touchstone to sit and remember - even if their names aren't on it, not all would want that, and there's no way of knowing all the names (and, again, the question of "how tall to ride" would come up) - is helpful when we lose a friend. I don't think, in general, there would be all too much outcry against an "In memoriam."

Two. Devs. Sit down with each other to figure out loosely what you're comfortable with, and sit down and have the conversation with us, the community, about memorials - spots, plaques, NPCs, whatever - for individuals. It *is* a repeated ask for various people, but I do think the conversation needs to be had (and expectations or boundaries set.) It won't be an easy conversation, it'd probably be a heated conversation at times, but if there are going to be *any* NPCs, plaques, renames of anything, etc. - having something that feels ... I hate to use the word fair, maybe "considered?" ... to point to ...

well, you know.

Probably not revisiting the thread, I'm sure there'll be plenty of barbs thrown about this, so... But I think it's a conversation to have.

Never really gave much thought about this before. You do bring up some interesting points. Who to include or exclude? Does everyone get it or only a select few who get selected by someone.

My only way of providing a solution or approach for this would be to find some place like Echo Plaza. Also all players to register their handle. If some day they pass away, have a special marker next to the name to honor them.

Before someone else suggests it, I don't know if having players offer tributes to that player as a honor to provide other markers or something should be done. But it would allow people in the community to feel something, perhaps grief, by doing that.

Have a good weekend.

Nerio72 · December 15

Names on the War Walls?🤔

Rudra · December 15

23 minutes ago, Nerio72 said:

Names on the War Walls?🤔

That would require the affected map to be redone each time a new name was added. You can't work on an active map. So the map would have to be cloned, then the cloned map would have to be modified to add the name, and then an update would be required to replace the existing map with the updated map. Every time a new person was added.

Nerio72 · December 15

Just now, Rudra said:

That would require the affected map to be redone each time a new name was added. You can't work on an active map. So the map would have to be cloned, then the cloned map would have to be modified to add the name, and then an update would be required to replace the existing map with the updated map. Every time a new person was added.

So... Once a week during maintenance?

Nerio72 · December 15

What's confusing? Once a week the servers are shut down for maintenance. Do you know it would be super difficult once it got implemented or something? I really don't know, it was just an idea 🤷‍♂️

Rudra · December 15

Server maintenance isn't a patch update.

Nerio72 · December 15

Ok, so it's impossible. Got it.

Rudra · December 15

29 minutes ago, Nerio72 said:

Ok, so it's impossible. Got it.

It's not impossible, but each new name added will require a patch update to the game to add.

wjrasmussen · December 15

true, but it gives people agency to choose if they want to be on it.

plus, weekly would make alphabetical order possible.

but if it is too hard for the devs, well....

Rudra · December 15

1 hour ago, wjrasmussen said:

true, but it gives people agency to choose if they want to be on it.

plus, weekly would make alphabetical order possible.

but if it is too hard for the devs, well....

No, it really wouldn't. Because you are changing the map's geometry to add each name to the wall, in order to alphabetize the names, the existing names, after they have been added, would need to be removed as part of the model, and then re-added in order. (Edit: And if it is not done as a model alteration, then a new texture map would need to be generated each time.)

Edited December 15 by Rudra

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