Empathy power set in the modern City of Heroes

[tidge]

On 2/4/2025 at 12:35 AM, Kaika said:

 To add to this preventing damage in the game is currently much easier and far more effective, a single cold can negate the need for healing in the first place with 3 buttons (Powerboost + ice shield + Glacial shield) and brings far more to the table then Emp does offensively.

 

25 minutes ago, macskull said:

PB doesn’t work on Cold shields.

 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

On 2/4/2025 at 2:10 AM, Maelwys said:

Make Fortitude an AoE and add +Absorb to the Heals. Done.

and make more of the powers actually effect the caster. its not like emp defenders will be topping the damage charts any time soon.

[Shin Magmus]

     The two realistic options for AoE Fortitude are sidegrade of Farsight/World of Pain (which will come with dramatically reduced numbers, and obviously less +Def/+Tohit than Farsight in exchange for also providing +Dmg), or a toggle buff AoE anchored onto an ally.  The toggle would be more annoying to use in practice and "feel" like Shifting Tides, Spirit Ward, Disruption Field, etc. so it would be able to have higher numbers than the click-and-forget buff (that maintains Power Boosted numbers for the full duration).  Either of these solutions is fine, but Fortitude is long-past due for being an AoE with how this game works.  That suggestion is very commonly requested, and also part of the rework in my signature.

[Kaika]

7 hours ago, macskull said:

PB doesn’t work on Cold shields.

Hah I appear to be mistaken, though I know you can do the same with Time, either way getting def up to the point of practical immortality isn't all that hard so I still stand by my points.

Edited Sunday at 01:27 AM by Kaika

[Talen Lee]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:01 AM, Techwright said:

Question:  What, to you, is the value of the Empathy power set, its "place" if you will, in the modern Homecoming environment?

It's a great set for duo/small group consistent play. Pugs, no idea, don't think I'd bother.

But Fortitude is a corker of a buff available very early on that makes a lot of the levelling play experience easier, granting tohit, and defense and damage.

I don't know if that's enough for a powerset to exist, but to me, I don't at all feel bad about rolling an empath to hang with a friend. Most of what I do on my empaths is fortitude the people who need it, auras when they're up, adrenaline boost an optimal target, and then I am all pew pew pew.

It is a bit rough that most of its powers, I'd skip, but I mean that's true for me of Forcefield and Sonic too.

[lyra]

emp is great.im running a all of the contacts around lvl40.Nemesis, Carnies, CoT and Malta.its great to have a emp.no need to hit enemies for heal+clear mind.

i took the injection from medicpool with my blaster to support emps:))

on my emp i took medicpool too.with "FieldMedic" you can heal yourself after "Absorb Pain" and with "BuildUp" from epics boost your heals.

Emp was my first class in CoH in 2005 and i love every emp :D

 

[Murcielago]

I vote we change it to Apathy and it becomes a heavy confusion set that causes players to attack other team members.

[arcane]

17 hours ago, Kaika said:

Hah I appear to be mistaken, though I know you can do the same with Time, either way getting def up to the point of practical immortality isn't all that hard so I still stand by my points.

Power Boosted Fortitude is also a thing.

[DawL]

On 2/4/2025 at 3:10 AM, Maelwys said:

Make Fortitude an AoE and add +Absorb to the Heals. Done.

I'd also like CLEAR MIND to be an AoE like Speed Boost now is. It's a PITB to keep spamming it per character and keep it on everyone that needs it. Even ignoring the tank/brute and scrapper, and any other that says they have mez protection and don't need, if you have three or four who do need it and they scatter, it's like herding cats. Why can speed boost and increase density cover everyone around by clear mind can't?  *sad empath face*

[DawL]

My first character was an emp/elec defender. My second and most beloved character is ill/emp controller. Both were tough to play at lower levels, but once the controller hit around level 20 she got better at soloing. Don't get me wrong, it was slow, but doable. The emp/elec was pretty much just for team play. She couldn't solo her way out of a wet paper bag. But I put everything in her emp powers with little thought to her secondary. As soon as the controller got in the higher levels and got all the emp stuff, I realized she was definitely my favorite. She can play emp on teams, she can solo and buff and heal her Phantasm into a damage monster. The "girls" (phantom army) tank, the Phantasm kills. The KB to KD IOs were the best thing to happen to his little energy blaster self. On live, he'd just blow the enemies across the room, then go CHASE them, aggroing every group in the entire area. Now he's much more precise and better behaved. I love the empathy set. It makes both characters who they are, but in different ways. I don't get to play nearly as much as I used to, but my very most favorite character is my ill/emp. 

[DawL]

On 2/8/2025 at 2:19 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

and make more of the powers actually effect the caster. its not like emp defenders will be topping the damage charts any time soon.

^^^^^ THIS! My emp def is soooo squishy! 

[schrodingercat]

give them the ability to make npcs take damage when they do damage (like a damage shield). debuffing damage, speed would also make a lot of sense. absorb shields that target the npc and radiate out from the npc on players would be fun!

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, DawL said:

I'd also like CLEAR MIND to be an AoE like Speed Boost now is. It's a PITB to keep spamming it per character and keep it on everyone that needs it. Even ignoring the tank/brute and scrapper, and any other that says they have mez protection and don't need, if you have three or four who do need it and they scatter, it's like herding cats. Why can speed boost and increase density cover everyone around by clear mind can't?  *sad empath face*

the difference is you can stack CM. very useful when fighting powerful holds like Ghost Widows hold. They tried making CM not stack but if the target had a hold on them that CM was stopping, in the instance that you recast it, the hold would drop their toggles and they would die.

[Seldom]

On 2/8/2025 at 10:26 AM, arcane said:

Fact: Empathy is the current worst support set in the game and should be first in line for buffs.

 

Having played all support sets except marine to 50,  I would argue Sonic Resonance as being the worst support set, especially if you have no other support available.  It gives resistance to damage, but in no way alleviates from any of the side effects from any attacks. Add to this resistance is patently worse than defense on the majority of archetypes because damage doesn't scale to hp, and hitting its caps is almost impossible while doing far less. Empathy is 'Fine.' the problem is that while it can stabilize a bad team, its tools offer diminishing returns the better your team is.
Dark miasma, Cold Domination, Radiation emission, even Traps all do better. Strangely enough, even the below-average Sonic Resonance got a buff in its 'Liquefy' uptime, making it way better than it used to be.

My issues with the set:

• This set has no flavor. If you just labeled the set 'Support' it would fit in with any generic vidjagame healing set.
• To make the set work really well, you have to go all-in on +recharge. WHEN you do this, it can be pretty good- fortitude on the entire team and permanent Adrenalin Boost on a target is no joke! But it seems the set is balanced around a maxed out recharge, rather than SO numbers, as though more +regen/+recovery would be gamebreaking. (Meanwhile, other sets can easily have such big effects up non-stop, looking at you, Time, Nature. )
• The set has too many redundancies. Healing Aura, Heal other, Absorb pain have literally the same effect on the target, just in different ratios. Why 'Absorb pain' was never tweaked to use the ACTUAL 'Absorb' mechanic I'll never understand. Has Empathy EVER had tweaks?
• Too many of its powers are skippable/skipped.
  • 'Clear mind' actively punishes the Empath that tries to keep it up on their whole team. What do I mean? Far better buffs last far longer, do more to help survival, and they don't tempt user to stop attacking/doing better buffs/debuffing to cast this largely useless effect. Blegh, full rant here: 
  • 'Resurrect' is way less useful nowadays with the plethora of self-protection and self-rez powers available in combat, and ally-rez capabilities for out of combat. It requires melee range in a big fight that just killed someone, and offers its target no defenses except against debt. Heck, its closest power is 'Rebirth' from Nature, a set that gets to cast for all the same effects from 45 ft away, with heal over time and Bloom tacked on.
  • 'Absorb pain'  endangers the LAST person in a team that you want going down, while only giving marginally better healing that is usually just as available from the quick-recharging 'Heal other.'

That's a full THIRD of the set that situational/ignorable.

 

Edited Monday at 06:52 PM by Seldom

[arcane]

49 minutes ago, Seldom said:

 

Having played all support sets except marine to 50,  I would argue Sonic Resonance as being the worst support set, especially if you have no other support available.  It gives resistance to damage, but in no way alleviates from any of the side effects from any attacks. Add to this resistance is patently worse than defense on the majority of archetypes because damage doesn't scale to hp, and hitting its caps is almost impossible while doing far less. Empathy is 'Fine.' the problem is that while it can stabilize a bad team, its tools offer diminishing returns the better your team is.
Dark miasma, Cold Domination, Radiation emission, even Traps all do better. Strangely enough, even the below-average Sonic Resonance got a buff in its 'Liquefy' uptime, making it way better than it used to be.

My issues with the set:

• This set has no flavor. If you just labeled the set 'Support' it would fit in with any generic vidjagame healing set.
• To make the set work really well, you have to go all-in on +recharge. WHEN you do this, it can be pretty good- fortitude on the entire team and permanent Adrenalin Boost on a target is no joke! But it seems the set is balanced around a maxed out recharge, rather than SO numbers, as though more +regen/+recovery would be gamebreaking. (Meanwhile, other sets can easily have such big effects up non-stop, looking at you, Time, Nature. )
• The set has too many redundancies. Healing Aura, Heal other, Absorb pain have literally the same effect on the target, just in different ratios. Why 'Absorb pain' was never tweaked to use the ACTUAL 'Absorb' mechanic I'll never understand. Has Empathy EVER had tweaks?
• Too many of its powers are skippable/skipped.
  • 'Clear mind' actively punishes the Empath that tries to keep it up on their whole team. What do I mean? Far better buffs last far longer, do more to help survival, and they don't tempt user to stop attacking/doing better buffs/debuffing to cast this largely useless effect. Blegh, full rant here: 
  • 'Resurrect' is way less useful nowadays with the plethora of self-protection and self-rez powers available in combat, and ally-rez capabilities for out of combat. It requires melee range in a big fight that just killed someone, and offers its target no defenses except against debt. Heck, its closest power is 'Rebirth' from Nature, a set that gets to cast for all the same effects from 45 ft away, with heal over time and Bloom tacked on.
  • 'Absorb pain'  endangers the LAST person in a team that you want going down, while only giving marginally better healing that is usually just as available from the quick-recharging 'Heal other.'

That's a full THIRD of the set that situational/ignorable.

 

Sonic Resonance is likely 2nd to last, but IMO the DPS boost on hard targets (from Sonic Siphon and Disruption Field) is basically more valuable than anything Empathy can do.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

Sonic Resonance is likely 2nd to last, but IMO the DPS boost on hard targets (from Sonic Siphon and Disruption Field) is basically more valuable than anything Empathy can do.

 

Also AoE Mez protection that doesn't require attention; and Liquefy's uptime can be pretty decent now. But Sonic Cage is still less than useless. And Sonic Dispersion Repulsion is often dubious even with a KB>KD IO in it.
 

Edited Monday at 11:15 PM by Maelwys

[ShardWarrior]

On 2/4/2025 at 5:48 PM, UltraAlt said:

Is this in the end-game or in the game/leveling-content?

 

@UltraAlt brings up a good point.  There really is more to the game than level 50+ iTrials and TFs.

 

My very first 50 on Live was an Empathy/Rad Blast Defender.  I hated the character so much that I never rolled another Empath again, until recently.  Every Saturday evening is the Saturday Night Synapse League over on Torchbearer.  I like having a stable of different characters to bring for it depending on how I feel.  Empathy Defenders are always a welcome addition to the team, so I decided to create a new alt and level it up.  I found myself actually having quite a lot of fun on teams, especially running lower level TFs and SFs where Empathy shines.  I actually had so much fun playing it that I made another one for me to have on Excelsior. 

 

Back to what @UltraAlt touched on, there is more to the game that steamrolling.  Not every player is at an advanced skill level and some people really do take advantage of having an Empath on the team.  Empathy makes a great partner for duos and small teams.  Is Empathy outclassed by other sets?  In some ways, sure, but not all sets need to be the same.  At least to me, it serves a niche role and does it quite well.

 

With that said, I would not mind seeing some improvements.  CM and Absorb Pain being made PBAoE would be spiffy.

[Shin Magmus]

Sonic Resonance is a pretty good set actually and feels fine to me.

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

Also AoE Mez protection that doesn't require attention; and Liquefy's uptime can be pretty decent now. But Sonic Cage is still less than useless. And Sonic Dispersion is often dubious even with a KB>KD IO in it.

Think you mean Sonic Repulsion and not Dispersion (Dispersion is the big protection bubble). And I don't think a KB->KD IO would work in it anyway since I think it's technically a repel and not a regular KB and those IOs don't work on repel effects.

[Maelwys]

  

29 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Think you mean Sonic Repulsion and not Dispersion (Dispersion is the big protection bubble).

That's the one.
  

29 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

And I don't think a KB->KD IO would work in it anyway since I think it's technically a repel and not a regular KB and those IOs don't work on repel effects.

The power with the Repel in it is from the FF powerset - Repulsion Field.
It inflicts Repel and knockback every 0.25s; but it doesn't cost you any extra endurance for each enemy shunted back unless you're in PVP.
(However it's worth pointing out that slotting KB>KD in it actually reduces the Repel chance from 100% to 0% and so DOES have a benefit here).

Sonic Dispersion Repulsion on the other hand is completely different, and functionally identical to Repel from the Kinetics powerset except that it's centred on an ally; not on you. Neither of those powers actually inflict the repel effect on foes (despite the name!) but instead they inflict Knockback every 0.5s and charge you 1 additional Endurance for each enemy that gets knocked back. Slotting a KB>KD IO in them vastly reduces the activation chance of the knock effect; making it a "10% chance for Knockdown" every 0.5 seconds instead of a "100% chance for Knockback". Which whenever you or a squishy teammate are standing in the middle of a big mob of enemies can occasionally be useful; and it also lowers the endurance drain from "completely unbearable" to "just about manageable with some assistance from Transference/Ageless/etc".
FF's Repulsion Field with a KB>KD IO is almost always going to be the better power in every respect - more than double the radius, no additional endurance cost and pulses twice as often... but Sonic Repulsion is not completely useless. Sonic Cage however...? All using that does these days is aggro your teammates.
 

Edited Monday at 11:40 PM by Maelwys

[MoonSheep]

empathy is slightly outdated however it has a few really good niche capabilities

 

it unfortunately suffers commonly from two issues:

1. people don’t slot it properly or pickup powerboost

2. people play it in a very dull way

 

a well built empath delivered in a ‘PvP’ style can be great on speedruns - following the lead damage dealing squishy and keeping them alive during the chaos

 

though like others have said, there’s a lot of modern sets which now offer more than empathy does and better fit with modern builds

[JJDrakken]

19 hours ago, arcane said:

Sonic Resonance is likely 2nd to last, but IMO the DPS boost on hard targets (from Sonic Siphon and Disruption Field) is basically more valuable than anything Empathy can do.

 

Sonic Resonance is just fine as is.  It's not "FLASHY" But is very solid. -- Sonic Cage being overall worthless power for the set. (Sure could be handy in PvP(bleh) or Solo).  But overall Phase Powers in general are some most hated powers. They are fastest way to piss a team off for sure.(side rant).

 

Lets look at Sonic R.  Unslotted & at Defender Values.

 

1.  Sonic Siphon -- Single Target -Res.  30%  Well that means that Boss or AV or GM is taking more damage from your team and yourself.  -- Win

 

2. Sonic Barrier & Sonic Haven -- Resistance Buff: 20%  That means your Allies are taking less damage. So even if someone a D build, does get hit, we'll they will take less.  Great example back on live, We ran a 7 Spider & 1 Sonic/Sonic Corr ITF & finished in 18 mins.  We didn't skip shit, just powered through fast. If they got hit, they took less.  -- Win

 

3. Sonic Cage -- Garbage(Phase powers suck). But as stated maybe useful for PvP or Solo -- Fail

 

4. Disruption Field -- Toggle on an Ally.  PBAOE Effect of -30% Resistance that will stack with your Sonic Siphon. -- Win

 

5. Sonic Dispersion -- +Res(Cept Psionic) -- Status Protection: to Immob, Stun, Holds(8.65 Mag value) -- PBAOE Toggle off you(thus you get effects). -- Super Win

 

6. Sonic Repulsion -- Toggle Ally -- PBAOE KB -- FAIL -- Till Sudden Acceleration Proc -- Now: -shrugs- Honestly the noise it makes still makes it a fail to me.

 

7.  Clarity -- Single Target Protection to all Status Effects for a limited time and +Perception. -- It's a Win, but situational win.

 

8. Liquefy -- Location AoE -- Minor Damage -- Foe Hold(Mag 2) -- KD -- Negative To Hit, & -Def -- SUPER WIN.  Not to mention the recipe set combos you can use in it.

 

You can easily soft cap your S/L/E Defenses with Scorpion Shield and have have self resist and status protection for self on top of all that.

 

Overall folks sleep on Sonic cuz it's not flashy or omfg doesn't heal -- (Goes back to Empathy).  It's a Debuff--Buff set.

Edited 21 hours ago by JJDrakken

[Shin Magmus]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

it unfortunately suffers commonly from two issues:

1. people don’t slot it properly or pickup powerboost

2. people play it in a very dull way

 

     These points are both correct but the gentle wording belies the... "severity" of the issue in-game.  Almost all (98%) of Empathy teammates will play in a way that may or may not inflict mental damage... on you.  This is why I think proposed buffs to the set should also make it easier to play, more "set-and-forget" if you will.

[TygerDarkstorm]

16 hours ago, Maelwys said:

  

That's the one.
  

The power with the Repel in it is from the FF powerset - Repulsion Field.
It inflicts Repel and knockback every 0.25s; but it doesn't cost you any extra endurance for each enemy shunted back unless you're in PVP.
(However it's worth pointing out that slotting KB>KD in it actually reduces the Repel chance from 100% to 0% and so DOES have a benefit here).

Sonic Dispersion Repulsion on the other hand is completely different, and functionally identical to Repel from the Kinetics powerset except that it's centred on an ally; not on you. Neither of those powers actually inflict the repel effect on foes (despite the name!) but instead they inflict Knockback every 0.5s and charge you 1 additional Endurance for each enemy that gets knocked back. Slotting a KB>KD IO in them vastly reduces the activation chance of the knock effect; making it a "10% chance for Knockdown" every 0.5 seconds instead of a "100% chance for Knockback". Which whenever you or a squishy teammate are standing in the middle of a big mob of enemies can occasionally be useful; and it also lowers the endurance drain from "completely unbearable" to "just about manageable with some assistance from Transference/Ageless/etc".
FF's Repulsion Field with a KB>KD IO is almost always going to be the better power in every respect - more than double the radius, no additional endurance cost and pulses twice as often... but Sonic Repulsion is not completely useless. Sonic Cage however...? All using that does these days is aggro your teammates.
 

Thank you. I was having trouble figuring out if it worked like a KB or  repel looking at it on CoD.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

Sonic Resonance is just fine as is.  It's not "FLASHY" But is very solid. -- Sonic Cage being overall worthless power for the set. (Sure could be handy in PvP(bleh) or Solo).  But overall Phase Powers in general are some most hated powers. They are fastest way to piss a team off for sure.(side rant).

 

Lets look at Sonic R.  Unslotted & at Defender Values.

 

1.  Sonic Siphon -- Single Target -Res.  30%  Well that means that Boss or AV or GM is taking more damage from your team and yourself.  -- Win

 

2. Sonic Barrier & Sonic Haven -- Resistance Buff: 20%  That means your Allies are taking less damage. So even if someone a D build, does get hit, we'll they will take less.  Great example back on live, We ran a 7 Spider & 1 Sonic/Sonic Corr ITF & finished in 18 mins.  We didn't skip shit, just powered through fast. If they got hit, they took less.  -- Win

 

3. Sonic Cage -- Garbage(Phase powers suck). But as stated maybe useful for PvP or Solo -- Fail

 

4. Disruption Field -- Toggle on an Ally.  PBAOE Effect of -30% Resistance that will stack with your Sonic Siphon. -- Win

 

5. Sonic Dispersion -- +Res(Cept Psionic) -- Status Protection: to Immob, Stun, Holds(8.65 Mag value) -- PBAOE Toggle off you(thus you get effects). -- Super Win

 

6. Sonic Repulsion -- Toggle Ally -- PBAOE KB -- FAIL -- Till Sudden Acceleration Proc -- Now: -shrugs- Honestly the noise it makes still makes it a fail to me.

 

7.  Clarity -- Single Target Protection to all Status Effects for a limited time and +Perception. -- It's a Win, but situational win.

 

8. Liquefy -- Location AoE -- Minor Damage -- Foe Hold(Mag 2) -- KD -- Negative To Hit, & -Def -- SUPER WIN.  Not to mention the recipe set combos you can use in it.

 

You can easily soft cap your S/L/E Defenses with Scorpion Shield and have have self resist and status protection for self on top of all that.

 

Overall folks sleep on Sonic cuz it's not flashy or omfg doesn't heal -- (Goes back to Empathy).  It's a Debuff--Buff set.

I’m not sure why you took the time to write all of this like it isn’t common knowledge. Nobody is “sleeping on Sonic” just because we acknowledge that it is good but nearly every other set is a little bit better.