Making killing hostages fail TFs?

[Robotech_Master]

I was on a Lady Grey TF the other day, and a Moonfire TF last night, in which the other participants decided to speed the Task Force up by letting the hostage get killed instead of rescuing them. It allowed them to bypass completing tthe rest of the mission and go on to the next one. They lost the end of mission XP, of course, but that's almost no kind of penalty at all.

 

It doesn't seem very heroic, to me, to intentionally kill off the hostage in the name of gaining a little speed. It seems like there should be some kind of penalty for this sort of behavior more stringent than just losing a small XP bonus. Perhaps it should result in failing the TF altogether?

[justicebeliever]

I’m a +1 for this

[Vanden]

According to the i25 patch notes, that shouldn't even work any more.

[Robotech_Master]

According to the i25 patch notes, that shouldn't even work any more.

Welll, it does. On the TFs I was on, they cheerfully let the hostages die, failed the mission, then went right on with the rest of the TF. If it's not supposed to work that way, it's not working right.

[Vanden]

According to the i25 patch notes, that shouldn't even work any more.

 

Welll, it does. On the TFs I was on, they cheerfully let the hostages die, failed the mission, then went right on with the rest of the TF. If it's not supposed to work that way, it's not working right.

 

I was wrong. What the patch notes says is that defeating the AV wins the mission, so you don't have to bother with the hostages.

[PaxArcana]

Every hostage that dies should accrue debt for every member of the team.  :)

[jack_nomind]

It doesn't seem very heroic, to me, to intentionally kill off the hostage in the name of gaining a little speed. It seems like there should be some kind of penalty for this sort of behavior more stringent than just losing a small XP bonus. Perhaps it should result in failing the TF altogether?

 

It's not.  Y'know what else isn't very heroic?  Trolls who find out there's a way they can fail an entire TF for their team.

 

I'm all for failing hostages causing the TF to branch and require an extra warehouse slog defeat-all -- just a hammy 20 minute long funeral scene between two of the missions where you periodically have to fight off waves of Lost protesters -- but not for tf abortion.

[Burnt Toast]

Because "arresting" people with a katana slice...is heroic? Throwing hot embers into the mouths of people...is heroic? And on and on and on and on. I have no interest in one minute of dev time being spent on this. This is a video game - not reality. The "let hostages die" thing has been a part of every Lady Grey I have done. Selective morality and RP should not dictate changes made to content that has been around for years. Moral objections can be made by anyone over just about anything...and should not change content that has been around for years.

[golstat2003]

Because "arresting" people with a katana slice...is heroic? Throwing hot embers into the mouths of people...is heroic? And on and on and on and on. I have no interest in one minute of dev time being spent on this. This is a video game - not reality. The "let hostages die" thing has been a part of every Lady Grey I have done. Selective morality and RP should not dictate changes made to content that has been around for years. Moral objections can be made by anyone over just about anything...and should not change content that has been around for years.

 

Agreed. Also it opens up the door trolls as someone pointed out.

[Shinobu]

Perhaps it should result in failing the TF altogether?

 

No.

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

In the case of lady grey, you seem to forget its not only for heroes. Why on earth should a sick twisted serial killer who is only even lending his abilities for the sake of keeping his hunting ground intact have to show selfless compassion on top of it?

 

In the case of moonfire, Todd is one of those crazy ass get themselves killed types.

 

Now I personally do the wait by the door and ATT trick with todd every time. I find it faster actually then letting her die.

 

However what you suggest would make it so you would sooner solo these TFs then risking some one who has a personal issue like a having a bad day, not liking how you post on the forums if on your name sake etc piss all over the TF with your frankly terribad idea.

 

Dont like how a pug acts leave the pug. Stop trying to bend others to your play style. Dont jive, ignore em all to avoid them forever after. You choose who you play with. You dont come here and demand energy spent by the HC team on this nonsense.

[Doctor Brainbottle]

Even from an RP perspective, no. This is a "Lady Grey" task force. Her name should be the first clue that she's a pragmatist who is willing to make some moral compromises, when asking Heroes and Villains to work together to fight the mutual threat of the Rikti invaders. By alll means you can role-play a Hero who is horrified by collateral damage, as long as you realize that villains, rogues, and vigilantes scoffing at you is just as much in-character for them.

[OEM61]

It's not.  Y'know what else isn't very heroic?  Trolls who find out there's a way they can fail an entire TF for their team.

 

I'm all for failing hostages causing the TF to branch and require an extra warehouse slog defeat-all -- just a hammy 20 minute long funeral scene between two of the missions where you periodically have to fight off waves of Lost protesters -- but not for tf abortion.

 

This.

 

If they want to make rescue the priority then they can penalize letting the hostages die in some way, but not by causing the TF to fail.

 

That opens things up to trolls with nothing better to do, and the one thing worse than my hero having to work with people that will happily let a hostage die when they could be saved at the cost of only a minute or two of time is some jerk causing everyone to have to re-start the TF because their life sucks and they want some company in miseryville.

[Robotech_Master]

All right, causing the TF to fail would probably be a bad idea, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of penalty to keep killing hostages from being attractive. Having to do a mission that takes longer than rescuing the hostage would have, or just having to repeat that one mission until you do it right maybe.

[justicebeliever]

I do have a question...I do a lot of TF's (definitely not as many as many of you), but I have yet to see someone join up with the purpose of "trolling" our group...Maybe it's because they don't have the opportunity (except for heaping additional aggro on the group that we aren't prepared to take and they leaving when we face plant - and again, I have YET to see this).

 

Is the worry here really that people are going to troll your TF? 

 

For the Moonfire Example...you would have to really have a lot of trolling experience to make that work - Roberta is a single hostage, with her own capabilities...And if the "team" is all working together to lead her out, there really isn't an Oppty for trolling...

 

I haven't done Lady Grey since my Live Days, so I am bit rusty there...

 

And if the "real" argument is "NO. Don't change my stuff", then let's at least get that out there to deal with, and not cloud it with unlikely what if's.

[Primantis]

Failing the TF seems a bit harsh.

 

I'd be ok if we were forced to re-do the mission though. Or even tack on an extra "Woops the hostage died so now you have to complete an extra mission" feature. So people actually try to keep the hostages alive.

 

But at the end of the day, I don't think the issue is big enough to warrant excessive dev time devoted to it.

[Burnt Toast]

It's ok you think that, but others have given plenty of reasons why it is ok for them to be left to die.

You wanting to penalize people because you have a moral objection to a valid method of completion is ridiculous. It's a video game where people are slashed, burnt, suffocated, dehydrated, frozen, and thrown against walls... get over it.

 

All right, causing the TF to fail would probably be a bad idea, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of penalty to keep killing hostages from being attractive. Having to do a mission that takes longer than rescuing the hostage would have, or just having to repeat that one mission until you do it right maybe.

[Hallibel]

I'm surprised to hear this, getting Barracuda killed in the first mission of the Operative Renault Strike Force causes it to fail.

[justicebeliever]

It's ok you think that, but others have given plenty of reasons why it is ok for them to be left to die.

You wanting to penalize people because you have a moral objection to a valid method of completion is ridiculous. It's a video game where people are slashed, burnt, suffocated, dehydrated, frozen, and thrown against walls... get over it.

 

All right, causing the TF to fail would probably be a bad idea, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of penalty to keep killing hostages from being attractive. Having to do a mission that takes longer than rescuing the hostage would have, or just having to repeat that one mission until you do it right maybe.

 

Toast -

 

It's ok you have an objection, but there is by no means an overwhelming consensus here...most of the posters have advocated for some kind of change...so even if it's a moral objection, it's one that so far, is supported...

 

It is a video game, but it is a video game about heroes, and like it or not, many heroes (not all) have moral codes they adhere to, so it's not unreasonable to make the request.  However, I am sensing (not assuming, so please correct me if wrong), that you find even the request unreasonable...Can you elaborate? 

 

Beyond the moral, there is also the fact that rescuing the hostages are a mission objective, and on a task force, where "the stakes are higher", it might make sense to increase the "stakes" in completing the objectives.

 

I don't think anyone is fervently advocating for the entire TF to fail, so that shouldn't be the objection/concern anymore...

 

I'm on the fence with Lady Grey...it could be argued that for a mixed mission some villainy should be allowed...but it still is a mission objective, and as was mentioned, the Renault Strike Force does FAIL the TF if the "hostage" isn't rescued...So there is also precedent

 

On the Hero side, I'm more than OK with a larger penalty for failing to rescue Roberta Todd on Moonfire's TF...

 

Finally, we should resist the argument that we shouldn't make changes in things that have been around for years.  If that's the case, Homecoming should already be a massive disappointment, because MANY things have changed.  So we evaluate each change as suggested, and we can decide to throw it out on it's merits or propose it, but we shouldn't be bashing ideas just because they change something.  The old content ISN'T a sacred cow, and I've heard alot of people suggest that content refreshes would be very welcome.  Otherwise, let's change the name of this board to just "Feedback"...

[Mr. Vee]

/jranger

 

if you don't want them to die then don't let them on your run. leave my run alone. can we get a moratorium on suggestions which involve forcing a personal preference on everyone, please? besides, glacia totally deserves it (she knows what she did).

[justicebeliever]

can we get a moratorium on suggestions which involve forcing a personal preference on everyone, please?

 

That would mean a moratorium ALL suggestions...There is no one suggesting anything on this board that isn't someone's personal preference...

 

It's fine to voice that you don't like a change, but let's not turn it into people "forcing" anything.  A suggestion doesn't involve force.  No one is forcing anything except the HC Dev's...And even then, they aren't forcing you to play here...

 

So rather than polarize the issue into us vs them, share why it would ruin your fun...

 

[Burnt Toast]

1. This is a video game about heroes, villains, rogues, and vigilantes all of which take part in this task force. This is NOT a heroic task force - you can have a mixed team or a team of all heroes/villains. So let's get that straight right away. While many people simply call the game CoH - I much prefer CoX because that is more reflective of the true nature of the game which allows 4 distinct alignments.

 

2. This issue was discussed in depth on live for a very long time - and as a result it stayed the way it was BECAUSE allowing the hostages to die was a valid method of completion both mechanic and lore wise. Again.. because this is not a hero task force.

 

3. The desire to roleplay should never affect the general pve experience of everyone else.

 

4. Moral objections in this game are outlandish - this is not a hero game as previously mentioned... there are HUGE gray areas and personal morality should not affect the way thousands of others play. What if I object to the family being nothing more than a gross stereotype of people of Italian heritage? Why should we have a game with Nazis in it...? Anyone can come up with some "oh so personal" moral objection, but those said objections shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It would be different if the game was glorifying rape, incest, killing handicapped people, etc... but it's not.

 

The TF was allowed to be completed with the hostage section failing for a reason... an actually good reason... by the original development team. Saying there should be any negative aspect because of a moral objection when a valid lore reason has been given... is just silly. There is nothing saying you can't rescue the hostages, but forcing others to play your way because you object on a moral/rp stand point is one of the worst  arguments to be made for changing a task force introduced 12 years ago... in Issue 10.

 

 

It's ok you think that, but others have given plenty of reasons why it is ok for them to be left to die.

You wanting to penalize people because you have a moral objection to a valid method of completion is ridiculous. It's a video game where people are slashed, burnt, suffocated, dehydrated, frozen, and thrown against walls... get over it.

 

All right, causing the TF to fail would probably be a bad idea, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of penalty to keep killing hostages from being attractive. Having to do a mission that takes longer than rescuing the hostage would have, or just having to repeat that one mission until you do it right maybe.

 

Toast -

 

It's ok you have an objection, but there is by no means an overwhelming consensus here...most of the posters have advocated for some kind of change...so even if it's a moral objection, it's one that so far, is supported...

 

It is a video game, but it is a video game about heroes, and like it or not, many heroes (not all) have moral codes they adhere to, so it's not unreasonable to make the request.  However, I am sensing (not assuming, so please correct me if wrong), that you find even the request unreasonable...Can you elaborate? 

 

Beyond the moral, there is also the fact that rescuing the hostages are a mission objective, and on a task force, where "the stakes are higher", it might make sense to increase the "stakes" in completing the objectives.

 

I don't think anyone is fervently advocating for the entire TF to fail, so that shouldn't be the objection/concern anymore...

 

I'm on the fence with Lady Grey...it could be argued that for a mixed mission some villainy should be allowed...but it still is a mission objective, and as was mentioned, the Renault Strike Force does FAIL the TF if the "hostage" isn't rescued...So there is also precedent

 

On the Hero side, I'm more than OK with a larger penalty for failing to rescue Roberta Todd on Moonfire's TF...

 

Finally, we should resist the argument that we shouldn't make changes in things that have been around for years.  If that's the case, Homecoming should already be a massive disappointment, because MANY things have changed.  So we evaluate each change as suggested, and we can decide to throw it out on it's merits or propose it, but we shouldn't be bashing ideas just because they change something.  The old content ISN'T a sacred cow, and I've heard alot of people suggest that content refreshes would be very welcome.  Otherwise, let's change the name of this board to just "Feedback"...

[Mr. Vee]

can we get a moratorium on suggestions which involve forcing a personal preference on everyone, please?

 

That would mean a moratorium ALL suggestions...There is no one suggesting anything on this board that isn't someone's personal preference...

 

That's a bit facetious. There are plenty of preferences that can be voiced that aren't forcing anything on others. I'd prefer it if Null had a no-fx option for barrier. It'd help me see better in caves and wouldn't bother anyone. That's entirely different from wanting to change how a TF works for everyone because it doesn't fit someone's concept of heroism. These boards are full of suggestions like that. Everyone should stop speeding because i like to read the stories... Stop PLs because I like to level slowly... Change how the market works because I'm not able to make money the exact way I did on live...

 

One of the best things about this game is that it offers so many different ways to play and have fun. Why impose unnecessary limits? When I run with my usual group we let the hostages die for speed. Every time I run LG or Moonfire with a pug I ask going into the missions what the leader/team wants to do and go with whatever they say. It's not rocket surgery.

[Judasace]

If you want to playa certain way where you roleplay a particular morality, get some like minded people and agree ahead of time to play that way. If there are people whose playstyle upsets your sense of immersion and roleplayed morality, don't play eith those people any more.

[justicebeliever]

Happy Independence Day Toast!  If you are in the US, I hope you have a grand celebration with fireworks, BBQ, and laughter...and my favorite: beer!  If not, then I still celebrate Freedom with you wherever you are, and still hope you have BBQ, laughter, and beer.  (Unless you are vegan, have wheat allergies, or avoid alcohol, in which case I still wish for laughter for you.)

 

1. This is a video game about heroes, villains, rogues, and vigilantes all of which take part in this task force. This is NOT a heroic task force - you can have a mixed team or a team of all heroes/villains. So let's get that straight right away. While many people simply call the game CoH - I much prefer CoX because that is more reflective of the true nature of the game which allows 4 distinct alignments.

 

Easy there big guy...I know this...I called out exactly that about Lady Grey...However the OP and myself also mentioned Moonfire, which IS a heroic task force.  And a comparable Strike Force (Villains only) does require rescue of the hostage or the TF fails and must be redone.

 

I'm on the fence with Lady Grey...it could be argued that for a mixed mission some villainy should be allowed...but it still is a mission objective, and as was mentioned, the Renault Strike Force does FAIL the TF if the "hostage" isn't rescued...So there is also precedent

 

2. This issue was discussed in depth on live for a very long time - and as a result it stayed the way it was BECAUSE allowing the hostages to die was a valid method of completion both mechanic and lore wise. Again.. because this is not a hero task force.

 

True!  Again, I mentioned that just because a thing was so, doesn't mean in needs to stay so.  Saying NO to something because it is a change, is not in itself a valid reason.  What do you personally prefer about the current way?

 

3. The desire to roleplay should never affect the general pve experience of everyone else.

 

It is a MMORPG (MMO Role Playing G).  So I think immersion in the world is 100% part of the experience...If you think pretending to be a super hero or super villain is dumb or stupid, then I am not sure why you are here...And all of the missions/contacts have story content and objectives that range the comic book gamut from Do-Gooder to Morally Conflicted, etc...So again, I'm not really sure I understand.  There are all sorts of rescue hostage missions that require you to rescue the hostages...Are those also objectionable to you?  Maybe they are...IDK...

 

4. Moral objections in this game are outlandish - this is not a hero game as previously mentioned... there are HUGE gray areas and personal morality should not affect the way thousands of others play. What if I object to the family being nothing more than a gross stereotype of people of Italian heritage? Why should we have a game with Nazis in it...? Anyone can come up with some "oh so personal" moral objection, but those said objections shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It would be different if the game was glorifying rape, incest, killing handicapped people, etc... but it's not.

 

This is absolutely a Hero game.  It is also absolutely a Villain game.  It can be more than one thing.  It's not a lot of things, but it can be more than one thing.  So hero content can be heroic, and villain content should be not so much. 

 

If we are going to go a moral route, then I agree that there aren't absolutes in morality..  But if we are going to talk about personal morality, I sincerely hope we both agree that if someone has the ability and duty to rescue someone else, and chooses not  to, then they are a coward and morally wrong.  I want to be clear here that I do not for a moment believe you think this, so I assume that we both agree that we share the same morality in this.  I'm 99.99% sure you are saying that "video game" morality isn't the same as "real life" morality...and I would agree that we can express our desire to sometimes do immoral things in video games and that's OK (hence City of Villains).  You mentioned the Family...the Mafia is a real life group of "villains", but the game does not play to the "italian" side in any way.  Nazi's are real life super villains...and in the game, you can only EVER be opposed to them, even on the villain side.  No where does it glorify them.

 

But on the hero side, I would love to see our shared "real life" morality be the core story element.  And it is for the most part...so I am still unclear on your objection to the hero side changes...

 

I guess, I am asking, why do you like the current content.  I'm still mostly hearing, don't change it because I don't like change...And if that's the only reason, that's fair, but it doesn't really need all the justification you are giving it...

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight, so if I am getting your blood pressure up, just say so, and I'll let it go.  I truly want you to enjoy your Holiday (or my Holiday if you are outside the US), and not be angry at that guy who really just doesn't seem to get your POV...