Luck of the Gambler

[Clave Dark 5]

On 2/18/2025 at 11:51 AM, JJDrakken said:

Does that mean YOU have to follow it no.  But many folks want an optimal play.

= "some folks choose min/maxing"

 

Tons of other people here are theme players, RPers, etc., not just the "not-many"s  😃 

[Jacke]

My feelings about Hasten are very similar to @tidge's.

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

Years ago (in the HC era) I came to view Hasten (and the inevitable pursuit of perma-Hasten) as a character design trap. I know not everyone sees it this way, but initially (on HC), I saw that it was possible (yay easy to acquire enhancement set pieces!) and straightforward... I remembered the long recharge times of some attacks (and other powers) on Live, so: Why wouldn't everybody go for perma-Hasten? Here are some things that contributed to me changing my mind, such that I now very rarely ever take Hasten.

I find the Speed pool to be underwhelming. Super Speed is my second-to-least favorite travel power. I don't need/want anything else the set offers... so taking Hasten was minimally burning one of four pool choices and possibly forcing me into a travel power that I can make work but don't like.

 

Because most Toons can make a good attack chain without Hasten (with the Global Recharge from IO set bonuses), I really don't think it's necessary.

Most of my builds use all 4 Power Pool picks.  Having to use 1 of this tightest resource just to get more Global Recharge means leaving off Powers from another Pool I want.  And Super Speed is my least favourite Travel Power.  More likely to be a concept Toon that takes Flurry for the LOLZ.

 

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

I can get respectable global recharge from slotting set enhancements (including the LotG pieces) that are easy to acquire and make the powers they are slotted in better (i.e. Purple Very Rares) I have taken (accurate!) criticism that I "chase Global Recharge, why not just take Hasten", but then the criticism is followed with "How to get perma-Hasten"... so irony-poisoning sets it.

 

What has me take Hasten is a Toon with several critical very long recharge Powers.  Like Illusion Control's Phantom Army.  Or a Nature Affinity Toon.  Otherwise, I make do with IO set bonuses for Global Recharge.

 

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

I often have another power that I want on auto (more than Hasten). I know how to juggle auto powers, but I find it to be clumsy.

 

A critical conflict.  Especially considering Ninjitsu, Shield Defense, and Super Reflexes Toons have a Click Power that provides their Mez Protection.

 

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't like relying on a proc for "perma" anything; sorry Force Feedback %+Recharge. I certainly can build for perma-Hasten without it, but with some of the positive press this piece gets, you might come to believe it single-handedly is granting auto-wins on all content. This is a precious slot that could almost certainly be better used (in whatever power it is placed in, or elsewhere)

 

I may consider using the Force Feedback %+Recharge Proc.  But I'd not want to depend on it.  I'll still likely limit Hasten to Toons with several critical very long recharge Powers.

 

 

12 hours ago, tidge said:

Finally, I'll be somewhat judgemental. I think it is crazy to take Hasten at level 4, and it is probably a bad idea to take it before level 18. I recognize that there are some ATs with primary/secondaries that might have four powers from both the T1 and T2 choices where only two are needed... but the way I see it, taking Hasten as the third power pick pretty much tells me that they player is not really focused on low (for arbitrary values of "low") level content, and might be the kind of player teammates will be waiting for as they magic carpet around the zone. Who knows what other oddball compromises will be in that build? This is not a criticism of builds that explicitly are only going to play level 45+ content... but I can't recall ever seeing a build with Hasten at level 4 that was advertised as such.

 

Back in the day, I'd limit taking Hasten to around L18 or higher, as I'd want at least L20 Recharge Reduction IOs.  Now that there's +3 SOs available from L2, if I can, I take Hasten just before the very long recharge Powers I'm looking to get back way sooner.

 

Here's another factor @tidge didn't mention.  If a L50 build is to be Exemplared and Hasten is still available, Hasten (and those Click Mez Protection Powers) really needs 3 total slots, as the L50+5 Recharge Reduction IOs slotted in their are really reduced when even just going down to L25, worse at L20 and L15/L16.

 

 

[desarix]

In a way I am glad for the new Cupid's Crush it has some global recharge on it. As for making my own builds I don't have the wherewithal to make my own which is why I spend a ginormous amount of time looking at builds for any AT I want to play and I spend my time combing through them. I was a bit of a drama queen saying it depressed me but it's just that I was struck by it since it wasn't just one like the steadfast, performance shifter or the panacea people put in. 

 

Before the proc rage it was something else. I do notice some folk only proc out one attack. I guess I was merely talking about diversity and that seems to be something you need to be willing to do yourself. I am not even talking about doing 4* content which I am not sure I will ever qualify for at this stage of my gaming life. 

 

I love story arcs and I enjoy being able to do them and read slowly and enjoy the dialogue and read all the captions. Something I cannot do in groups. While I adore grouping I am mostly building to do story arcs. I do this even in games like Grim Dawn where I read the dialogue even when I have run through it with my 19th toon. It still tickles me to read Darius Cronley's little speech each time about his plans for Bourbon. So may be this meta is something I can work around.

 

I do recall before the sets came into the game people would put recharge on their powers. Especially the pets that were on long recharge and was the standard then. I know every game has something like this having started with Everquest in 1999 I am well aware of what the meta is and how important it is to a game's popularity. People work towards a meta it is part of the magic of reaching a goal. I need to understand every game has their own way of expressing it.

 

Thank you for the responses it did make me think about the importance of choice.

Edited Thursday at 08:14 AM by desarix

[Seed22]

I’m on break and tentatively done making alts, but when I did I min/maxed. So with that in mind, Hasten was an auto pick, proc bombs where I could fit em, no pointless 45% def chasing on squishies. 
 

What I’m seeing in this thread is what I expected of the forums and in game community. Concept builds and other things.  Though concept builder does NOT mean forgoing minmax. I build with  elaborate concepts in mind and still minmax. A point I feel that needed to be made.

[tidge]

 

7 hours ago, Biff Pow said:

The thing about Recharge is it's diminishing returns. The first 100% (usually just from enhancements) is great, the recharge time is halved. If you add another 100% you're down to one third, and over that you're just shaving off seconds. Now, those seconds might be important to you and that's fine, but sometimes you might be missing out on better build choices.

 

This is a big reason why I consider Hasten (on top of +Recharge from set bonuses) to be something of a (wishy) wash. In my experience, not character is that worse off with less Global Recharge, except Dominators in the perma-Domination regime. I realize that not every player goes out of their way to kit all their characters with Purple sets, but it really doesn't take that much effort. See also @Jacke point about how minimal (Recharge) slotting of Hasten can work against a player exemplaring down because of Enhancement scaling.

 

5 hours ago, desarix said:

I do recall before the sets came into the game people would put recharge on their powers. Especially the pets that were on long recharge and was the standard then.

 

The game does have a peculiar number of "capstone" powers with weirdly long recharge times.... especially considering the timers on Incarnate powers... so I grok why folks with an eye on certain ATs higher tier powers or Epic pools would crave more global recharge.

[Stormwalker]

8 hours ago, Biff Pow said:

The thing about Recharge is it's diminishing returns. The first 100% (usually just from enhancements) is great, the recharge time is halved. If you add another 100% you're down to one third, and over that you're just shaving off seconds. Now, those seconds might be important to you and that's fine, but sometimes you might be missing out on better build choices.

 

Like, my Energy Blaster can Nova every sixty seconds. I could take Hasten and slot LotGs and get that down to maybe 45 seconds, but I really like my build and also a Nova every minute is pretty great already.

Yep. If you have enough recharge to make your build work, then chasing more is wasting slots.

 

On the flip side, if you don't have enough recharge to make your build work, adding recharge is imperative.

 

Though, if I don't have 100% slow resist (something I generally only achieve on a Super Reflexes character), I like to have a little extra.

Edited Thursday at 02:42 PM by Stormwalker

[roleki]

On 2/18/2025 at 1:51 PM, JJDrakken said:

+RECHARGE, +RECOVERY, -REGENERATION.

It goes by different names in different contexts, but it all boils down to resource advantage; name the endeavor, and those that have resource advantage tend to outperform those that do not.  I understand that people feel that "having" to take this or that power is an unwanted constraint, but it absolutely boggles my mind that given the choice between "having every power in the entire build available 70% sooner" or "temporarily buff everyone on the team, IF you are on a team, AND someone dies" that a fair number of players would opt to take Vengeance.

[tidge]

52 minutes ago, roleki said:

... but it absolutely boggles my mind that given the choice between "having every power in the entire build available 70% sooner" or "temporarily buff everyone on the team, IF you are on a team, AND someone dies" that a fair number of players would opt to take Vengeance.

 

As was (indirectly) mentioned by multiple folks in this thread, Hasten is in a different power pool than Vengeance... so folks may not want to give up the Leadership pool for a single choice from the Speed pool. I suppose this is obvious, but here goes: Vengeance is a perfectly adequate mule for LotG (or Shield Wall, or Karma, or Preventive Maintenance, etc.) This choice shouldn't be that mind-boggling.

 

The "70% sooner" isn't quite right, given the diminishing returns of (not ED, but) how much time gets shaved off of certain powers, especially if the build is going to have Global +Recharge bonuses from enhancements. I'm not saying it would be nothing, more that for many powers the difference in recharge times (at least for my builds) is on the order of the animation time (or shorter).

[roleki]

13 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

As was (indirectly) mentioned by multiple folks in this thread, Hasten is in a different power pool than Vengeance... so folks may not want to give up the Leadership pool for a single choice from the Speed pool. I suppose this is obvious, but here goes: Vengeance is a perfectly adequate mule for LotG (or Shield Wall, or Karma, or Preventive Maintenance, etc.) This choice shouldn't be that mind-boggling.

 

The "70% sooner" isn't quite right, given the diminishing returns of (not ED, but) how much time gets shaved off of certain powers, especially if the build is going to have Global +Recharge bonuses from enhancements. I'm not saying it would be nothing, more that for many powers the difference in recharge times (at least for my builds) is on the order of the animation time (or shorter).

Apologies that my mentioning them in the same sentence gave the impression I thought Hasten and Vengeance came from the same pool, that was not the takeaway I expected to impart.  And while I agree that Vengeance IS a good mule for, among others, LotG, I would still rather take 70% global recharge than that 7.5% recharge, or scaling +Res or whatever,  diminishing returns be damned.  I may not regularly NEED to have 3x Lightning Storms out at once, or three Bonfires, or (briefly) three Acid Mortars, but I do alright despite handicapping myself with such capabilities.

 

I get it, there are petless masterminds and there's blappers and characters that only use pool attacks - the game is simple enough that you can absolutely play it with one hand tied behind your back if you so desire.  I just think it's kind of bad form to shit on Hasten when it's clearly the second-best power in the game for people who actually have other shit they want to do, too.

[Stormwalker]

50 minutes ago, roleki said:

Apologies that my mentioning them in the same sentence gave the impression I thought Hasten and Vengeance came from the same pool, that was not the takeaway I expected to impart.  And while I agree that Vengeance IS a good mule for, among others, LotG, I would still rather take 70% global recharge than that 7.5% recharge, or scaling +Res or whatever,  diminishing returns be damned.  I may not regularly NEED to have 3x Lightning Storms out at once, or three Bonfires, or (briefly) three Acid Mortars, but I do alright despite handicapping myself with such capabilities.

 

I get it, there are petless masterminds and there's blappers and characters that only use pool attacks - the game is simple enough that you can absolutely play it with one hand tied behind your back if you so desire.  I just think it's kind of bad form to shit on Hasten when it's clearly the second-best power in the game for people who actually have other shit they want to do, too.

 

There are some builds for which Hasten won't help you significantly at all.

 

For example: if you're a Super Reflexes or Willpower melee AT and you already have enough recharge to run your desired attack chain gapless without Hasten (and remember that SR gets 20% +recharge for free, so unless your attack chain requires cosmic levels of recharge, hitting your recharge target isn't going to be that difficult), adding it doesn't give you anything.  Especially if you're already at 100% slow resist, which is very attainable for SR in particular.

 

Don't get me wrong, Hasten can be an incredibly useful power, and it is mandatory in some builds (Claws comes to mind, if you want the optimal attack chain), but for melee builds that don't have click defenses, you only need enough recharge to run your attack chain, and more than that is wasted.

 

Not every AT/powerset has long-recharge clicks.

Edited Thursday at 05:21 PM by Stormwalker

[Heatstroke]

On 2/20/2025 at 12:01 PM, Stormwalker said:

 

There are some builds for which Hasten won't help you significantly at all.

 

For example: if you're a Super Reflexes or Willpower melee AT and you already have enough recharge to run your desired attack chain gapless without Hasten (and remember that SR gets 20% +recharge for free, so unless your attack chain requires cosmic levels of recharge, hitting your recharge target isn't going to be that difficult), adding it doesn't give you anything.  Especially if you're already at 100% slow resist, which is very attainable for SR in particular.

 

 

 

 

HA interestingly enough the TWO characters that I have that DON'T have hasten. Willpower/SS Tank and SR/Street Brute..

 

 

[Stormwalker]

7 minutes ago, Heatstroke said:

 

 

HA interestingly enough the TWO characters that I have that DON'T have hasten. Willpower/SS Tank and SR/Street Brute..

 

 

 

Ironically, my two high-level SR scrappers (Kitten America, 50 Claws/SR and Aerofencer, 46 DB/SR) both DO have Hasten.  But both of them fall under the "unless your attack chain requires cosmic levels of recharge" caveat, since Kitten uses Follow-Up -> Focus -> Slash and Aerofencer uses Blinding Feint -> Sweeping Strike -> Ablating Strike (or will, once she actually achieves the required level of recharge - she's not there yet).  Several of my other SR scrappers who have less blistering attack chains don't, though.

[shortguy on indom]

• WHO CARES IF ITS NECESSARY, NEEDED OR WHATEVER.  IT CAN BE A BOAT LOAD OF FUN.
• LIMIT: MAXIMIUM RECHARGE RATE BONUS OF +400% WHICH CUTS RECHARGE TO 1/5 OF NORMAL.
• HAVE A BUILD WITH 235-275% RECHARGE...
• EVEN WITH THAT BUILD, HAVE ONLY SEEN THE MAX 400% RECHARGE RATE LIGHT-UP WHEN WITHIN BABBAGEFEST PILE.