Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

The game is not, has never been, and should not be balanced around soloing team content.

 

Oh I get that, but I think you misunderstood the context of my reply to Arcane.  There was a claim that we shouldn't be taking overwhelming damage from 6 critters out of a 16 critter spawn (supposedly the other 10 were confused).  That would have to be a TEAM sized spawn, or someone playing on Notoriety +4/x8 as an example.  
 

[ExeErdna]

24 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

It isn't terrible, but in its current form, I'd swap seeds out for stalagmites in a heartbeat if I could.  Big AoE instead of a cone, longer range, 16 target cap.  Yes please.

 

Probably the biggest downside is just that the Stun enhancement sets aren't as good as the confuse ones, but that isn't the power's fault.  I mean, a tohit debuff proc on a stun set?  What were they thinking?  Then another one has a knockback proc, not only terrible, but often actually detrimental.  Stun has the worst procs ever. 

 

The best one in theory is the immo proc so they don't wander off yet that doesn't stop that most of the time I'm just putting "Will of the Controller", "Ragnarok" or "Avalanche" in stuns, 

[aethereal]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It would be pretty convenient if AoE controls could be forced to do their ToHit checks against already-mezzed targets last, so if it hits the target cap before it can affect everything in the AoE you don't get redundant controlling.

That's not how target cap works:  The game selects a number of targets in the area equal to the cap (if there are more targets in the area than the cap), then rolls to hit checks against them, it doesn't like roll-to-hit, then only if it's a hit does it count against the target cap.

[ApolloInferno]

In my opinion, Control does not have a place on a character that can use temp powers or insps. It has even less use on a team where people can just kill the stuff your controlling.

 

That being said; with Adaptive + Sleep added in the update controllers and dominator are only ATs that now have multiple viable options for group lockdown. That is something finally for those ATs to do different then other ATs.

 

Im just not going to use a power that doesnt lockdown the whole group if i have a better option. Pool power are just too good to waste a slot on a "standardized" power like Seeds, 10 tgt.

 

Not a requirement to revert changes. Just an estimation of usefulness

Edited Saturday at 08:52 PM by ApolloInferno

[Wavicle]

16 minutes ago, Crysis said:

 

Oh I get that, but I think you misunderstood the context of my reply to Arcane.  There was a claim that we shouldn't be taking overwhelming damage from 6 critters out of a 16 critter spawn (supposedly the other 10 were confused).  That would have to be a TEAM sized spawn, or someone playing on Notoriety +4/x8 as an example.  
 

In which case you have teammates. A tank doesn’t tank a whole spawn using only one power. Why should a dominator or controller?

Edited Saturday at 08:56 PM by Wavicle

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

That's not how target cap works:  The game selects a number of targets in the area equal to the cap (if there are more targets in the area than the cap), then rolls to hit checks against them, it doesn't like roll-to-hit, then only if it's a hit does it count against the target cap.

 

That doesn't contradict what I said? I said that when AoE controls roll their tohit checks, anything that's already mezzed would be skipped until it runs out of non-mezzed targets to check against.

[aethereal]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

That doesn't contradict what I said? I said that when AoE controls roll their tohit checks, anything that's already mezzed would be skipped until it runs out of non-mezzed targets to check against.

 

You're misunderstanding where to-hit checks exist.  You seem to think it goes like this:

 

Gather up all targets in area > roll to hits against them in some order > when a to-hit results in a hit, deduct the 1 from remaining target cap > stop when either you run out of targets or target cap hits the appropriate value.

 

But it doesn't.  It goes like this:

 

Gather up all targets in area > if there are more than the target cap, remove from the target list any over the target cap > then roll to-hits against the remaining targets (if you miss, they still take up target cap)

EDIT:  I guess if you just remove the thing about to-hit, what you basically mean is you want the logic for excluding targets from the area when you need to cut the list down to the target cap to prioritize non-mezzed targets.  I believe (but am not totally sure) that right now it just looks at distance from the center-point of the target.  I don't imagine that a code change to intro mez status into the target cap selection process is in the cards, but it's an interesting idea!

Edited Saturday at 09:05 PM by aethereal

[Vanden]

32 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Gather up all targets in area > if there are more than the target cap, remove from the target list any over the target cap > then roll to-hits against the remaining targets (if you miss, they still take up target cap)

Incorrect. Misses do not count against the target cap. This is easy to test, if you don’t believe me.

Edited Saturday at 09:35 PM by Vanden

[Wavicle]

21 minutes ago, aethereal said:

That's not how target cap works:  The game selects a number of targets in the area equal to the cap (if there are more targets in the area than the cap), then rolls to hit checks against them, it doesn't like roll-to-hit, then only if it's a hit does it count against the target cap.

This doesn’t sound right. To my understanding, AoEs check unlimited enemies in their area until they hit their target caps.

[Faultline]

46 minutes ago, aethereal said:

That's not how target cap works:  The game selects a number of targets in the area equal to the cap (if there are more targets in the area than the cap), then rolls to hit checks against them, it doesn't like roll-to-hit, then only if it's a hit does it count against the target cap.

 

_Chain_ powers can be set up to prioritize targets to jump to based on different things, so if the control power is made into a chain...

[WindDemon21]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

_Chain_ powers can be set up to prioritize targets to jump to based on different things, so if the control power is made into a chain...

chain have their own inherent problems though, including, especially, not proccing properly. So this won't work here since the CC proc will pretty much be needed unless you fix the target cap back to 16 like you should.

[Mezmera]

Give the Plant players what they are asking for. 

 

16 targets with 240s recharge with Adaptive Recharge seeing how they think it's cool to have Mind Control's best ability at t5.  Though seeing how the power does allow you to sprinkle in some damage doing so more frequently would be preferred I'd think.  10 targets with a 90s recharge along with a smattering of damage and Adaptive Recharge sounds so much better than Mind Control's signature power.  

 

How about you meet them in the middle 8 targets at 120s and Adaptive Recharge should be the equivalent if you were looking to shave some recharge for more usage.  

[Burnt Umber]

After some more experimenting with the current changes, I think I've gotten a better liking of the changes.  On my Plant/Psionic?Levi. Dom., I feel that my standard attack-chain is going to be the following:

1. Spores
2. If up, Vines>Carrion>Water Spout>Spores again
3. Psychic Scream>Bile Spray>PSW
4. Seeds on any reaming Lts./Bosses
5. Strangle>Psy. Probe> Psy. Thrust on single targets until dead

It's not perfect but it seems to work well with Seeds' reduced target number and adaptive recharge.

[Shin Magmus]

   Seeds of Confusion is shrimply not allowed to be worthwhile again.  I highly recommend allowing Plant Control to keep some sort of 16 target cap Seeds, because as soon as you force the set to rely on the AoE Sleep *every* spawn, it immediately gets compared to other sets that do the same thing.  If I'm forced to take Mass Hypnosis (Spore Burst) on my Plant Control character and to use it as my opener in every fight (because Seeds is unsafe to use as an opener)... then why would I even play the set and not just go play Mind Control?

 

Spore Burst -> 10 target Nerfed Seeds  <<<<<  Mass Hypnosis -> 16 target Buffed Terrify (that now applies Containment for Controllers).

[Riverdusk]

49 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Give the Plant players what they are asking for. 

 

16 targets with 240s recharge with Adaptive Recharge seeing how they think it's cool to have Mind Control's best ability at t5.  Though seeing how the power does allow you to sprinkle in some damage doing so more frequently would be preferred I'd think.  10 targets with a 90s recharge along with a smattering of damage and Adaptive Recharge sounds so much better than Mind Control's signature power.  

 

How about you meet them in the middle 8 targets at 120s and Adaptive Recharge should be the equivalent if you were looking to shave some recharge for more usage.  

 

Or maybe we could think of ways to make mind control's power better.  But no, instead we should look to nerf controllers wherever we can.  Afterall, they are the meta that is taking over the game and every high level group out there is clamoring to team with them.  Oh wait.... 

[Mezmera]

38 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Or maybe we could think of ways to make mind control's power better.  But no, instead we should look to nerf controllers wherever we can.  Afterall, they are the meta that is taking over the game and every high level group out there is clamoring to team with them.  Oh wait.... 

 

Mass Confusion is borderline OP already I would never want them to alter it.  Giving it Adaptive Recharge, an endurance reduction and reverted the accuracy feels like I'm gorging on too much cake.  Can't imagine what it must feel like to be disappointed to have a similar power with objectively better stats.  

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

This doesn’t sound right. To my understanding, AoEs check unlimited enemies in their area until they hit their target caps.

Huh, well, maybe I'm wrong.

[Gemini2099]

On 5/28/2025 at 1:10 PM, Saarei said:

I don’t really see how plant’s selling point being two great powers is really such a problem? Many times I pick sets because of a few really good powers.

I have to agree.

 

Not all powersets are meant to have great powers throughout.  Some sets work well taking a few and then the rest from pools and epics which makes the game more fun IMO.

 

I would say with Plant Control the current changes proposed take the set in the wrong direction.  Because in my opinion there are better control sets out there that do more and are more diverse. 

[Gemini2099]

11 hours ago, Crysis said:

 

I have 3-4 Poison characters using only 2-3 powers from the primary.  That just lets me take all kinds of attacks from the secondary/pool.  Which AFAIK is what was intended....you can take/slot stuff as much/little as you want.  Hellllloooo petless masterminds?

But apparently, in the case of Plant at least, no.....wasn't intended to be this way.  Plant/Fire was such a powerful combo specifically because you could take almost all the Fire powers and Pyro stuff from pools.  Now, you are meant to lean into Plant powers.  

 

I think these changes across the board are intended to push players to build/play "a certain way," not open up options.

 

Yeah that is the biggest problem I have with the changes to Plant it forces certain builds which doesn't make sense to me. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

After testing an Elec/Sonic controller at level 20, Plant at this level feels reeeeeeaaaallly sluggish. I thought it might be the critter changes, but my Elec controller, while defeating slower, doesn't feel nearly as drastic as the Plant/Marine I was testing.

 

Please consider giving plant some sort of damage boost or something. Electric Control feels great to play on Beta, while Plant decidedly does not. Keep in mind that leveling is still the majority of this game, that many, if not most, players are like myself and running SO and common IO builds. Plant at level 20 gameplay in current beta feels like playing Electric before the beta buffs.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

After testing an Elec/Sonic controller at level 20, Plant at this level feels reeeeeeaaaallly sluggish. I thought it might be the critter changes, but my Elec controller, while defeating slower, doesn't feel nearly as drastic as the Plant/Marine I was testing.

 

Please consider giving plant some sort of damage boost or something. Electric Control feels great to play on Beta, while Plant decidedly does not. Keep in mind that leveling is still the majority of this game, that many, if not most, players are like myself and running SO and common IO builds. Plant at level 20 gameplay in current beta feels like playing Electric before the beta buffs.

do you mind saying which powers in Plant and Marine you were using? Or if it’s easier, which did you not have yet or were not using?

[TygerDarkstorm]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

do you mind saying which powers in Plant and Marine you were using? Or if it’s easier, which did you not have yet or were not using?

I used a combination of the below powers; this was before build 2 though, so I do need to test with the build 2 changes, I've just been short on time. Since I logged in the Plant/Marine for this screenshot, I'll go ahead and toy with it some more. Everything is just auto-slotted with common IOs.

 

To be clear: My Plant/Marine can mostly contain things safely and take them out, it just felt like it was quite a bit more time consuming than it would be on live for even level mobs. It felt like playing my live Arsenal/Marine controller--he doesn't kill things quickly, but he does it in utter safety.

 

Edit: Sorry, it's also worth mentioning both controllers were being played at +0/x2 and the only thing that slowed the Elec down was the +1 mobs in my mission. Off to play with the Plant/Marine again.

 

Edit: Still noticeably slower, though I suspect skipping roots isn't helping, so I'll respec into that.

 

Edited Sunday at 04:38 AM by TygerDarkstorm
Added info for feedback

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I used a combination of the below powers; this was before build 2 though, so I do need to test with the build 2 changes, I've just been short on time. Since I logged in the Plant/Marine for this screenshot, I'll go ahead and toy with it some more. Everything is just auto-slotted with common IOs.

 

To be clear: My Plant/Marine can mostly contain things safely and take them out, it just felt like it was quite a bit more time consuming than it would be on live for even level mobs. It felt like playing my live Arsenal/Marine controller--he doesn't kill things quickly, but he does it in utter safety.

 

Edit: Sorry, it's also worth mentioning both controllers were being played at +0/x2 and the only thing that slowed the Elec down was the +1 mobs in my mission. Off to play with the Plant/Marine again.

 

When you try it again in the new build, consider using Roots, which does better damage than most other aoe immobs.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

When you try it again in the new build, consider using Roots, which does better damage than most other aoe immobs.

Yep, respeccing into it now since I realized skipping it was a mistake.

[TygerDarkstorm]

3 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Yep, respeccing into it now since I realized skipping it was a mistake.

Don't be dumb like me kids; take Roots. I don't even really know why I skipped it, but don't be like me. That made a huge difference in being able to take out a spawn and puts my Plant troller a lot closer to my Elec controller at the same level. It still seems a tad slow against even level mobs (I still think my Elec is killing faster), but definitely not as slog-like.

 

So, for other testing feedback:

I like the new adaptive recharge for Seeds--it feels much better to play with, especially when you're running at smaller team sizes like I tend to do with solo. I also kind of like that you don't have to rely on Seeds as the crutch of the entire Plant Control set.

 

I still think Spirit Tree needs work--the regen part seems fine; my health does pretty well when near it in the middle of a mob, however, this thing is not able to keep aggro from me whatsoever; I have yet to see the mobs be more interested in it than myself, and perhaps this is because I don't use it to take an alpha strike.

 

I will bump this character up again so I can test Creepers now that they're not bugged.