Focused Feedback: Powerset - Plant Control

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, Gemini2099 said:

 

Yeah that is the biggest problem I have with the changes to Plant it forces certain builds which doesn't make sense to me. 

 

I have quite a few plant combos, but for that reason if I do ever go back to plant controller it'd probably be my plant/rad.  Rad is a good secondary, but also one that has a lot of skippable powers, probably more than any other secondary (just need 6 from it really).  So, it has room to be more flexible in power choices.  

 

Biggest downside of it (and most plant combos) was always single target damage is terrible, and that is still an issue.  /rad unfortunately doesn't have any extra procable single target attacks like an extra single target hold or anything.

 

Would still love to see entangle's damage sped up, along with other control set's similar ST immobilize powers.   I still think it is ridiculous having to wait 9 seconds for it to actually do its damage.

 

Edit:  Plant/storm probably still a good one too, also lot of skippables and brings the extra damage.

Edited June 1 by Riverdusk

[TygerDarkstorm]

Some thoughts from jumping up to level 30 before I go to bed:

• Getting Creepers and Fly Trap definitely made a huge difference and sped up the killing process.
• I thought the Fly Trap felt useful in terms of damage contribution--when it's engaged with the mobs, I kill things quite a bit faster than without it.
• I'm not sure if Fly Trap's AI needs to be adjusted? It frequently followed me into the middle of mobs instead of staying at range. I'm not sure if that's because as Marine I'm jumping into melee or if it's the AI not keeping it at range until combat is over.
• I've never proc'd out creepers, so I can't comment to that change for them--I thought when they were out they felt similar to live.
• I didn't find much use for spirit tree--I actually do think there's some build flexibility with the new plant. I could probably comfortably drop spirit and either seeds or spore burst.
• Killing things is slower, but not awful by any means once you finally get your full kit. While I do kind of wish the duration of seeds was a tad longer, I don't hate these changes as much after playing with them more and I was honestly having fun on my plant/marine troller.

[Riverdusk]

14 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Some thoughts from jumping up to level 30 before I go to bed:

 

• I'm not sure if Fly Trap's AI needs to be adjusted? It frequently followed me into the middle of mobs instead of staying at range. I'm not sure if that's because as Marine I'm jumping into melee or if it's the AI not keeping it at range until combat is over.

 

To me that is a good thing, assuming you can keep it alive of course.  Its best attack is actually its melee attack.  

[ExeErdna]

2 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Don't be dumb like me kids; take Roots. I don't even really know why I skipped it, but don't be like me. That made a huge difference in being able to take out a spawn and puts my Plant troller a lot closer to my Elec controller at the same level. It still seems a tad slow against even level mobs (I still think my Elec is killing faster), but definitely not as slog-like.

 

So, for other testing feedback:

I like the new adaptive recharge for Seeds--it feels much better to play with, especially when you're running at smaller team sizes like I tend to do with solo. I also kind of like that you don't have to rely on Seeds as the crutch of the entire Plant Control set.

 

I still think Spirit Tree needs work--the regen part seems fine; my health does pretty well when near it in the middle of a mob, however, this thing is not able to keep aggro from me whatsoever; I have yet to see the mobs be more interested in it than myself, and perhaps this is because I don't use it to take an alpha strike.

 

I will bump this character up again so I can test Creepers now that they're not bugged.

 

Yeah, Spirit Tree was not holding aggro well at all since I was testing this versus Carnies. Creepers hold aggro more consistently than the Tree, I also miss my whole point of my building was the drop multiple of them to keep a group healed. The most consistent way the Tree holds aggro you have to pull at near max range and somewhat break Line of Sight. The reason why I used Carnies as a test because we know the first thing most of the mobs do is Blind so anytime I got instantly held, I knew the aggro failed. To me, Vines isn't worth slotting for dmg tragically.

[LastHumanSoldier]

Did some KW randoms last night on a fully beta compliant plant/sonic dom. 54x8 using insp (I am pro-insp so not a negative to me).

 

Spore, Seeds, Vines, creepers. Tree is still not worth using. Had to spec out of a ranged attack to get the build to work which broke my heart.

 

I felt safe opening with spore then vines and or seeds.  Creepers were helpful but the damage isnt really that great at all.

 

I would say plant is a decent middle tier dom set now. Multiple options are safer to play and faster sets. (Mind is one of those by the way. I dont want to share the others, I am gun shy lol)

 

 

Lucky this happened before i bought a 250 aether costume for my plant dom. To the strip tab it goes.

 

 

Edit: Flytrap: its awful on controllers even with the buffs. On Doms its not even worth a glance.

 

Edited June 1 by LastHumanSoldier
Had to mention flytrap.

[Arcadio]

8 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Some thoughts from jumping up to level 30 before I go to bed:

• Getting Creepers and Fly Trap definitely made a huge difference and sped up the killing process.
• I thought the Fly Trap felt useful in terms of damage contribution--when it's engaged with the mobs, I kill things quite a bit faster than without it.
• I'm not sure if Fly Trap's AI needs to be adjusted? It frequently followed me into the middle of mobs instead of staying at range. I'm not sure if that's because as Marine I'm jumping into melee or if it's the AI not keeping it at range until combat is over.
• I've never proc'd out creepers, so I can't comment to that change for them--I thought when they were out they felt similar to live.
• I didn't find much use for spirit tree--I actually do think there's some build flexibility with the new plant. I could probably comfortably drop spirit and either seeds or spore burst.
• Killing things is slower, but not awful by any means once you finally get your full kit. While I do kind of wish the duration of seeds was a tad longer, I don't hate these changes as much after playing with them more and I was honestly having fun on my plant/marine troller.

I found tree to actually be pretty useful at bigger spawns. I place it down a little in front of me and then hit the spawn with vines or creepers or seeds, and it catches anyone who might've not been controlled before they get to me. I only had a recharge in the tree, but it takes threat enhancements too. I could see giving it more slots being kinda worth it.

[Uun]

Spirit Tree

• Can we get an alternate/shorter/smaller animation for Spirit Tree? If you place the tree between you and your foes, you literally can't see your foes over the tree. 
• Can you add some indication of the perimeter of the tree's AoE? I assume the taunt range is the same as the regen buff range (40 ft), but there's no way to tell where that is.
• Doesn't hold aggro well. Even if I was standing in the tree's AoE, my dom peeled aggro off the tree very easily when I attacked.
• Reduced recharge is obviously an improvement, but the regen buff is still unexciting. 6-slotted with Preventive Medicine, it increased my regen rate by 1.23% (not saying 6-slotting this power makes sense, just wanted to see what it did maxed out). It's something, but it's not going to save your bacon in a tough fight.

Spore Burst

• Even though the stats are essentially identical, found the sleep to be much less sticky than Mass Hypnosis (I have both 1-slotted with a %heal proc). Curious if others are seeing this.

[ApolloInferno]

Time for my last set of Number Crunching for Plant Changes on Dominator!

This time I focused on the Plant set as a whole if you were to play the game in an 8x setting.

I testing this on my fully set Plant/Rad Assault Dom. I added Spore Burst, Spirit Tree, and Vines to build for both Live and Test Build (TB) versions. Please note I play an aggressive Build with alot of Recharge and Max HP, with little to no def/res in build.

-----

Once I did some practice and deaths, I settled on parameters:

- 4+8x ITF First Mission --- Ran to the first big room with the sybils.
- Limited myself to Barrier Core t4 + 2 Mid Luck insps (Refreshing as needed)
- Test completed when I die or all enemies in the room are dead
- Did multiple tests on Live and TB with seeds and Rad Assault; Then a couple without Seeds and Rad Assault (To gauge control and creeper effectiveness)
- At the end, I compared the Damage Done and the Clear Time (or Death Time)
-----

Results: I separated everything into a Good and Bad category. Hopefully, it will add more clarity.

THE GOOD:

- On Live, there was very little I could do to keep myself alive when I wasn't using Seeds. Creepers + mez was just not good enough to kill the enemies before they eventually got me. On TB though, New Vines and Spore Burst were holding down the enemies. I would only die sometimes to player error, but Test Build Vines and Spore Burst proved they are in a good place.

- On TB, Spirit Tree's regen and aggro were nice to have. All the enemies would group up on any Spirit Tree I spawned. Perfect for AoE follow up.

- On TB, Carrion Creeper spawns were spot on.

THE BAD:

- TB Creeper Damage output again came to 30% Less then Live on Average, Now that I have gotten this number multiple times I'm pretty confident this is accurate.

- TB Creepers can't survive without constant CC or damage output to keep them alive. There were a few cases where TB creeper damage output was 70% less then Live. Specifically, this occurred when I wasn't using Seeds + Rad Assault.

- TB requires you to bring Vines and Spore Burst so that Creeper don't feel like complete garbage. Enemies kill creepers pretty fast since you can't confuse them as much now. So if you can't kill the enemies they need to be mezzed. Willing to bet the difference is even more stark on a Controller.

- TB Seeds does not mez big groups effectively enough to protect your creepers but you need to take it if you want faster group clear times. I have already gone over this before: but I suspect the target cap. Once I got to the last 10 enemies, It didn't feel like I was struggling to keep up with mez output.  But it was very obvious I would start to die if I stopped using Spore Burst and Vines since Seeds could not keep up.

- TB Spirit Tree is made of something weak (maybe Council Minions?). It just dies whenever anything attacks it.
----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:

Current TB build is kinda at upper "meh" level right now. For a dominator, it honestly feels like I could do better with something else. It needs more love. The current build still feels like a nerf to best control. But I have a couple of suggestions that can easily pad out the nerfs into important, healthy changes to a beloved set.

- Seed target cap increase: Everyone saying 16 but honestly even 12 will do wonders. Believe it or not, there are very few groups in this game that have only 10 enemies in it. Haveing that limitation on a cone control power seems abitrary when cones are historically weak in this game.

- Spirit Tree buff: I honestly like this change to the power. I needed a Preventative Med set in my build and this fit the bill. Just please make it stronger then a Council Minion.

- Carrion Creeper Tuneing: Broken record here but the base damage output needs to be increased. The nerf to proc cascade left a 30% hole that gets a ton bigger the less experienced a player is. Even a slight increase will be felt I am sure.


Thanks to anyone who read my stuff!

I'm considering if I need to give the Controller same testing treatment but I honestly am not sure if people have been reading and paying attention to testing I have been doing.

(This has mainly been for my sanity and to give the changes the best chance I could)

[Vanden]

I'd like to echo what others are saying here that's it's very easy for the Spirit Tree to lose aggro. I assume its Taunt power has a very low target cap.

[Mezmera]

37 minutes ago, ApolloInferno said:

Time for my last set of Number Crunching for Plant Changes on Dominator!

This time I focused on the Plant set as a whole if you were to play the game in an 8x setting.

I testing this on my fully set Plant/Rad Assault Dom. I added Spore Burst, Spirit Tree, and Vines to build for both Live and Test Build (TB) versions. Please note I play an aggressive Build with alot of Recharge and Max HP, with little to no def/res in build.

-----

Once I did some practice and deaths, I settled on parameters:

- 4+8x ITF First Mission --- Ran to the first big room with the sybils.
- Limited myself to Barrier Core t4 + 2 Mid Luck insps (Refreshing as needed)
- Test completed when I die or all enemies in the room are dead
- Did multiple tests on Live and TB with seeds and Rad Assault; Then a couple without Seeds and Rad Assault (To gauge control and creeper effectiveness)
- At the end, I compared the Damage Done and the Clear Time (or Death Time)
-----

Results: I separated everything into a Good and Bad category. Hopefully, it will add more clarity.

THE GOOD:

- On Live, there was very little I could do to keep myself alive when I wasn't using Seeds. Creepers + mez was just not good enough to kill the enemies before they eventually got me. On TB though, New Vines and Spore Burst were holding down the enemies. I would only die sometimes to player error, but Test Build Vines and Spore Burst proved they are in a good place.

- On TB, Spirit Tree's regen and aggro were nice to have. All the enemies would group up on any Spirit Tree I spawned. Perfect for AoE follow up.

- On TB, Carrion Creeper spawns were spot on.

THE BAD:

- TB Creeper Damage output again came to 30% Less then Live on Average, Now that I have gotten this number multiple times I'm pretty confident this is accurate.

- TB Creepers can't survive without constant CC or damage output to keep them alive. There were a few cases where TB creeper damage output was 70% less then Live. Specifically, this occurred when I wasn't using Seeds + Rad Assault.

- TB requires you to bring Vines and Spore Burst so that Creeper don't feel like complete garbage. Enemies kill creepers pretty fast since you can't confuse them as much now. So if you can't kill the enemies they need to be mezzed. Willing to bet the difference is even more stark on a Controller.

- TB Seeds does not mez big groups effectively enough to protect your creepers but you need to take it if you want faster group clear times. I have already gone over this before: but I suspect the target cap. Once I got to the last 10 enemies, It didn't feel like I was struggling to keep up with mez output.  But it was very obvious I would start to die if I stopped using Spore Burst and Vines since Seeds could not keep up.

- TB Spirit Tree is made of something weak (maybe Council Minions?). It just dies whenever anything attacks it.
----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:

Current TB build is kinda at upper "meh" level right now. For a dominator, it honestly feels like I could do better with something else. It needs more love. The current build still feels like a nerf to best control. But I have a couple of suggestions that can easily pad out the nerfs into important, healthy changes to a beloved set.

- Seed target cap increase: Everyone saying 16 but honestly even 12 will do wonders. Believe it or not, there are very few groups in this game that have only 10 enemies in it. Haveing that limitation on a cone control power seems abitrary when cones are historically weak in this game.

- Spirit Tree buff: I honestly like this change to the power. I needed a Preventative Med set in my build and this fit the bill. Just please make it stronger then a Council Minion.

- Carrion Creeper Tuneing: Broken record here but the base damage output needs to be increased. The nerf to proc cascade left a 30% hole that gets a ton bigger the less experienced a player is. Even a slight increase will be felt I am sure.


Thanks to anyone who read my stuff!

I'm considering if I need to give the Controller same testing treatment but I honestly am not sure if people have been reading and paying attention to testing I have been doing.

(This has mainly been for my sanity and to give the changes the best chance I could)

 

I find it peculiar to test control sets against critters with a vicious amount of control resistance like those you find in an ITF when those Cimerrorans use Shout.  The only good controls on a regular ITF run were slows and knockup.  If you're looking to test your survivability for when controls fail then sure ITF is a way to go.  Otherwise how about testing Plant control on some of the new arcs there's a diverse group of targets to test on in them.  

 

 

Edit: This is done in jest I know Apollo, I'm using this to encourage better test structure 

Edited June 1 by Mezmera

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

Spore Burst

• Even though the stats are essentially identical, found the sleep to be much less sticky than Mass Hypnosis (I have both 1-slotted with a %heal proc). Curious if others are seeing this.

Yes, I have noticed this--I noted it a bit in my first feedback post I believe and I'll reiterate here after playing with it again last night that I don't think Spore Burst feels very sticky. If it goes live as is, I'd probably considered still skipping it in my build (at least on my plant/marine controller). Both Elec Control and Arsenal's sleep patches feel better.

 

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

I find it peculiar to test control sets against critters with a vicious amount of control resistance like those you find in an ITF when those Cimerrorans use Shout.  The only good controls on a regular ITF run were slows and knockup.  If you're looking to test your survivability for when controls fail then sure ITF is a way to go.  Otherwise how about testing Plant control on some of the new arcs there's a diverse group of targets to test on in them.  

I agree with this--why are you testing a control set against mobs that are notoriously control resistant? This seems like you're setting the changes up for failure.

 

I played Plant on a controller against Council and Tuatha and while the defeating is slower and I do think Plant can use a damage buff, Plant does not feel nearly as horrible as folks are trying to make out, especially when they're testing against mobs control doesn't work on anyway. The new plant plays fine, it was fun, and I like that there's some options for power picks for build variety.

 

Also, devs, Spirit Tree needs better taunt or this power basically remains a solid skip. At no point in my testing has this thing managed to keep mobs from attacking me, even before I've launched any offensive against them (e.g., I dropped it to break the alpha and just walking closer to the mobs turned their attention to me over the tree, let alone if I'm starting to layer controls on them.

[ExeErdna]

Personally drop the taunt from Tree and give it some sort of anti mez. Let the Taunt gimmick be unique to Pyro

[Uun]

35 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I'd like to echo what others are saying here that's it's very easy for the Spirit Tree to lose aggro. I assume its Taunt power has a very low target cap.

I've had it lose aggro with 1 target.

[ApolloInferno]

1 hour ago, Mezmera said:

 

I find it peculiar to test control sets against critters with a vicious amount of control resistance like those you find in an ITF when those Cimerrorans use Shout.  The only good controls on a regular ITF run were slows and knockup.  If you're looking to test your survivability for when controls fail then sure ITF is a way to go.  Otherwise how about testing Plant control on some of the new arcs there's a diverse group of targets to test on in them.  

 

 

Edit: This is done in jest I know Apollo, I'm using this to encourage better test structure 

This thought did actually occur to me. But i ended landing on them specifically because the dom set was performing so well against things like council and malta that i needed to get something more difficult to actually see something more then: "oh i guess enemies are dead". Im sure some arnt surprised  Live Seeds + Creepers do very well. But what surprised me was that Vines+Spores keeps everything locked down on TB. I had to find something difficult lol

 

Cimerorans had enough mez protect and damage output to track a bunch of things at same time. If i didnt run enough mez or damage ouput they would always kill me.

 

Also Cims are quite punishing to test because anytime i decided to play like crap i would just die and have to reset data set again lol

 

Tried rikti, council, rularru, nemesis, carnival, matla. But im sure someone could come up with better options

Edited June 1 by ApolloInferno

[Mezmera]

1 minute ago, ApolloInferno said:

But i ended landing on them specifically because the dom set was performing so well against things like council and malta that i needed to get something more difficult to actually see something more then: "oh i guess enemies are dead" 

 

1 minute ago, ApolloInferno said:

Tried rikti, council, rularru, nemesis, carnival, matla.

 

So Plant is doing quite well then is your summation eh?  Even my Mind dom has trouble with Cims.

[ApolloInferno]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

 

So Plant is doing quite well then is your summation eh?  Even my Mind dom has trouble with Cims.

Once i added insps, Rad Assault and incarnates yes. Plant cant defeat 4+8x Cims by its self as far as i can tell. (Which is why when i dropped using seeds on live i would die lol)

[ApolloInferno]

Thus the arguement above:

 

Plant is in a decent place right now. There are now plenty of control set that probabaly do better then plant now. Just needs a slight tune up  to be inline with other control powers and were grand. 

Edited June 1 by ApolloInferno

[Vinceq98]

One more change and need to keep reiterating the echo that CARRION CREEPERS needs a dmg buff. Buff their base damage up please and plant will feel balanced after these changes. I like the new spirit tree and love the new vines power as well. Seeds is now an afterthought for me and something I use when it's just the bosses left because of adaptive recharge I can easily confuse them with multiple applications as opposed to using it as an opener and NOT even hitting the damn boss because of the low target cap.

 

So yeah buff carrion creepers and ship it. I would be 100 percent behind these changes and would be happy that no one can complain anymore that plant was OP.

[LastHumanSoldier]

49 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

One more change and need to keep reiterating the echo that CARRION CREEPERS needs a dmg buff. Buff their base damage up please and plant will feel balanced after these changes. I like the new spirit tree and love the new vines power as well. Seeds is now an afterthought for me and something I use when it's just the bosses left because of adaptive recharge I can easily confuse them with multiple applications as opposed to using it as an opener and NOT even hitting the damn boss because of the low target cap.

 

So yeah buff carrion creepers and ship it. I would be 100 percent behind these changes and would be happy that no one can complain anymore that plant was OP.

 

I mean why not just leave creepers as it is?
You guys seem to be doing fine against the content you are testing and you are admitting that its a middle of the pack control set (for Doms at least).

Honestly from my own tests, and your feedback plant doesn't need anything else. No need to placate people who have been juicing on the OP plant all these years (myself included). Time to adapt and address the addiciton!

 

Honestly Flytrap is the worst power in the set and buffing that would go a long way to helping controllers. 
Focus on that and leave creepers in the dustbin of history.

 

Edited June 1 by LastHumanSoldier

[Gemini2099]

17 hours ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

After testing an Elec/Sonic controller at level 20, Plant at this level feels reeeeeeaaaallly sluggish. I thought it might be the critter changes, but my Elec controller, while defeating slower, doesn't feel nearly as drastic as the Plant/Marine I was testing.

 

Please consider giving plant some sort of damage boost or something. Electric Control feels great to play on Beta, while Plant decidedly does not. Keep in mind that leveling is still the majority of this game, that many, if not most, players are like myself and running SO and common IO builds. Plant at level 20 gameplay in current beta feels like playing Electric before the beta buffs.

 

True.

 

Which is why I am leveling another AR/Son Corruptor using just SOs mostly with some IOs here and there. I have a better feel of the recent changes to AR and Sonic Resonance respectively by using mostly SOs.  How this is relevant to this thread is that AR has a lot of powers you can pick up while Sonic Resonance has a lot of powers you can skip.  So while it seems an odd pairing it simply work lol.

 

I feel that plant becoming well rounded is well intentioned but the drawback is that what paired with plant is what mattered just as much if not more because of build possibilities.  I know on Dominators you could pick up more of the assault powers in the secondary versus needing more of the plant powers that is on live.

 

That is my feedback regarding plant.  

 

 

[Riverdusk]

2 hours ago, ApolloInferno said:

 

 

Tried rikti, council, rularru, nemesis, carnival, matla. But im sure someone could come up with better options

 

For a controller I know nemesis aren't so easy.  Seeds may as well not exist with Nem's confuse protection.  Doms can easily overcome it with domination up though.

 

From a controller point of view my biggest wish at this point actually is to just improve entangle.  I dislike having to pick up arcane bolt every time just to have a decent single target damage attack option (and often that isn't really enough). 

 

Once again I know for a dom's point of view it is unimportant as they have many other single target damage possibilities.

[kittowam]

I finally got a chance to test my Plant/TA controller under the new changes. I tested the same way I test all new character ideas, running at +1/x8 against Council, level 50 but before incarnates. These were my thoughts with each change:

• Seeds of Confusion. The lowered target cap didn't seem to affect me much. My luck with seeds is horrible, I rarely hit more than a few targets, even on live. The plus side is that it usually recharged in under 8 seconds, so I could use it multiple times in the fight. The negative is it did feel like I could have skipped seeds entirely. I expect it's still a valuable power for levelling, but it may not be so useful at 50.
• Spirit Tree. This change worked better than I expected. I changed my bind to summon at target location and used it as an opener. The spawns started attacking it immediately, though I couldn't tell how long it lasted since the other power effects made it hard to see.
• Spore Burst. I didn't really notice the changes for this power. I ended up dropping it in favor of Poison Gas Arrow since they both have similar effects, but arrow includes -20% damage.
• Carrion Creepers. I dropped the procs from it and replaced them with a set of Bombardment. The power performed well and with the other TA powers minions and lieutenants died pretty quickly, but bosses were a lot more difficult.
• Vines. Added this into my usual power rotation and it worked really well.

Conclusions: The set felt fine overall with the latest changes. The increase in enemy regen rates seemed to be the biggest problem and clearing the map is definitely slower. I nearly ran out of endurance trying to finish off the bosses. I don't see these changes keeping me from enjoying my plant controllers and dominators or making new ones in the future. Though I would like to see a damage increase on some of the powers.

[TygerDarkstorm]

4 hours ago, Gemini2099 said:

 

True.

 

Which is why I am leveling another AR/Son Corruptor using just SOs mostly with some IOs here and there. I have a better feel of the recent changes to AR and Sonic Resonance respectively by using mostly SOs.  How this is relevant to this thread is that AR has a lot of powers you can pick up while Sonic Resonance has a lot of powers you can skip.  So while it seems an odd pairing it simply work lol.

 

I feel that plant becoming well rounded is well intentioned but the drawback is that what paired with plant is what mattered just as much if not more because of build possibilities.  I know on Dominators you could pick up more of the assault powers in the secondary versus needing more of the plant powers that is on live.

 

That is my feedback regarding plant.  

 

 

To be fair, in that post of mine you're quoting, you're missing where I later on determined I was gimping myself by not having taken Roots (thanks again @Wavicle for pointing out my error), which dramatically increased my performance. Plant still feels slower than Electric Control, but I don't think it's in an utterly horrible place right now and feel the changes give it a lot of build variety as all powers are not needed to be effective.

 

Not saying there's not changes I'd like to see. It would be nice to see Plant get a damage bump and for something to be done about Spirit Tree, but I've said my bit on that and don't want to go in circles on it. I just wanted to point out that this quote of mine is "outdated" in the sense that shortly after I corrected an error that smoothed out the play experience.

[Vanden]

A bug with Spirit Tree: It's visibly summoning two trees, one for the taunting and one for the regen buff, which means it's doubling up on particle FX.

[Ratch_]

Creepers with 5pc rag has been fine, and seeds with 6pc contagious confusion is doing it's job for the most part. I still think spore + spirit tree followed by seeds is the safest opening you can do which is interesting. 

Containment on vines now does definitely soften the blow from proc cascade reduction. I can understand being weary of seeds competing with Mind's T9, though I still think a 90s control power should retain it's 16 target cap in some form. Could be 10 target confuse and 6 target sleep or some other minor effect.