I am done with Brutes

[Snarky]

Started with Brutes.  Loved Brutes.  played Brutes through the nerfs.  

 

They are buffing Tanks.  Again.  

 

Look, I can play a Sentinel and tell myself I bring as much to the team as Blasters do.  Similarly, I can play a Brute and say it is just as good as a Tank.

 

But I will not.

 

I am shattering all my 50 Brutes for parts.  Done with the AT

[Lunar Ronin]

Uhh... Tankers are getting nerfed, not buffed.

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, Lunar Ronin said:

Uhh... Tankers are getting nerfed, not buffed.

lol  

 

Tankers

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
• OverCap mechanic implemented
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target
• Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers.
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

minor reductions for Tanker and a FISTFULL of christmas presents.  

 

I can guarantee you two things

1) in any saturated enemy environment that Tanker would do more DPS

2) Brutes would kill for the changes Tanks have received, including this one.

[Lunar Ronin]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

lol  

 

Tankers

• Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.
• -Res modifiers lowered to match other melee ATs.
• OverCap mechanic implemented
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target
  • In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target
• Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers.
• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

minor reductions for Tanker and a FISTFULL of christmas presents.  

 

I can guarantee you two things

1) in any saturated enemy environment that Tanker would do more DPS

2) Brutes would kill for the changes Tanks have received, including this one.

 

... Those are all nerfs to Tankers as they stand on live today.

[Snarky]

Just now, Lunar Ronin said:

 

... Those are all nerfs to Tankers as they stand on live today.

• ncreased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft
•  
•  
• you read these as nerfs to Tankers?
• would you like to donate to the @Snarky fund for helping the poor helpless gullible people of Paragon?  your donation could be what it takes to save someone...

 

[BelleSorciere]

these are clearly nerfs

 

and long needed at that

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, BelleSorciere said:

these are clearly nerfs

 

and long needed at that

you see this as a nerf? ...

 

• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

[BelleSorciere]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

you see this as a nerf? ...

 

• Increased the radius and range of all tanker Primary and Secondary Cones by 50%
  • Cones no longer have their arc boosted
• Increased the radius of all tanker Primary and Secondary Sphere AoEs by 50%
  • The increase wont push radius above 15ft

 

yeah if you take like 10% of the words written about tankers in the beta patch then it's easy to make it look like anything 

 

did you read this part at all Like did you look at it and see what it says because this is a very blatant nerf it is a very necessary nerf:

 

In powers that had their target cap increased from 10 to 16, each target above 10 will take 25% less damage than the previous target

In powers that had their target cap increased from 5 to 10, each target above 5 will take 44% less damage than the previous target

 

you are aware that tankers had the higher target caps before and it full damage to every target within the AOE up to the target cap aren't you?

 

so you would know that the patch notes I quoted up here describe a reduction in damage within the target cap tankers had before this patch they're doing less damage. Like they're damage scale has been reduced by like 17% just to start and then they're doing full damage to fewer targets 

 

can you explain to me how reducing overall tanker damage and then on top of that dropping any damage over the normal AOE cap off a cliff is a buff please use math to prove this and please make sure you understand what tankers are like on live

[macskull]

28 minutes ago, Snarky said:

you see this as a nerf? ...

Yes, absolutely. They already had the increased arc and radius from their inherent, but those are now getting baked into the powers themselves. This means their AoEs will deal less damage and the proc rates will be lower (on top of "extra" targets taking exponentially decreasing damage and weaker secondary effects).

Edited yesterday at 12:03 AM by macskull

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

can you explain to me how reducing overall tanker damage and then on top of that dropping any damage over the normal AOE cap off a cliff is a buff please use math to prove this and please make sure you understand what tankers are like on live

Yes.  Yes I can.  

 

First, (AND SINCE YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED IT), Tankers are getting EXTRA AoE on all AoE attacks.  

 

Second, (and I am not going to run 10,000 AE runs to prove this, so put on that thinking cap...) The number of times a Tanker will exceed the increased target cap of 10+ and 5+ respectively (even with the new increase in AoE) is rare.  In effect, it is a big smoke and light show about reducing something that is almost never used...

 

edit, and the increased AoE loads the dice so they more often get to the 10 or 5.  so, more damage

Edited yesterday at 12:21 AM by Snarky

[lemming]

Honestly I didn't see them as either.  I can see your point though.

 

I was starting more tanks than brutes lately, but two of my current fave brutes are Mace/Shield and MA/Radiation, with a Rad/Rad a frequent run as well.  edit: Doh! Forgot my MA/Regen brute who is currently fun, but fragile.  I haven't tried her out on beta yet, will need a little rework to take advantage of the new Regen, but will be an improvement.

I do want to try a Regen/MA tank alongside just to compare though.  (If it plays like the Regen/AX tank I tried, slower damage, but superior survival)

 

That's not to say, Brutes need love.

Edited yesterday at 12:50 AM by lemming

[Spaghetti Betty]

None of the players at Tanker Tuesday know how to read either, so you'll fit in just fine!

[biostem]

This argument seems to hinge on one major point that needs clarification;  Am I correct in understanding that tankers are having their inherent Aoe/Arc buff removed, and instead, the powers are individually getting their AoE/Arcs buffed, with the further qualifier being that targets beyond their original target cap will take less damage.  Is this correct?

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

This argument seems to hinge on one major point that needs clarification;  Am I correct in understanding that tankers are having their inherent Aoe/Arc buff removed, and instead, the powers are individually getting their AoE/Arcs buffed, with the further qualifier being that targets beyond their original target cap will take less damage.  Is this correct?

i did not see where it said the previous buff to AoE is removed.  i posted the full explanation above.  granted, i have no idea what "Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers." means.  but "removing a restriction" to me does not equate to "rolling back AoE buff we already gave Tanks..."

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i did not see where it said the previous buff to AoE is removed.  i posted the full explanation above.  granted, i have no idea what "Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers." means.  but "removing a restriction" to me does not equate to "rolling back AoE buff we already gave Tanks..."

The current arc and radius buffs Tankers get is handled by Gauntlet, so damage and proc rate is higher than you'd expect it to be for the power's actual area. That is getting changed so the bigger values are baked into the powers.

 

The patch notes leave a lot to be desired and aren't very clear on any of these things.

Edited yesterday at 01:31 AM by macskull

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, macskull said:

The current arc and radius buffs Tankers get is handled by Gauntlet, so damage and proc rate is higher than you'd expect it to be for the power's actual area. That is getting changed so the bigger values are baked into the powers.

 

The patch notes leave a lot to be desired and aren't very clear on any of these things.

Yes.  As in not stating anything like what you just said.  
 

I will not apologize for being an angry raving lunatic.  Cause, I just got to be me.  
 

Yet…. In this case I am going off what was put in the patch notes.  AND based on THIS Dev team’s previous work(s) to put Tanks as the only melee class needed….  When someone tells you they are buffing something (and that is very clear in the patch notes) then believe them.  They said nothing about “walking back” any previous buffs.  So…. People in this thread are saying that.  That and a 25 mill donation to @Snarky will get you a thank you email.  With all the gratitude i can muster depending on the vagaries of my mood. 

[Psyonico]

42 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i did not see where it said the previous buff to AoE is removed.  i posted the full explanation above.  granted, i have no idea what "Removed arc/radius buff restrictions from powers." means.  but "removing a restriction" to me does not equate to "rolling back AoE buff we already gave Tanks..."

I read the “removed restrictions “ thing to be more like powers such as foot stomp and arc of destruction, which currently are not buffed by gauntlet, will now be buffed.

[macskull]

3 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I read the “removed restrictions “ thing to be more like powers such as foot stomp and arc of destruction, which currently are not buffed by gauntlet, will now be buffed.

Gauntlet no longer buffs any powers.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I read the “removed restrictions “ thing to be more like powers such as foot stomp and arc of destruction, which currently are not buffed by gauntlet, will now be buffed.

dies anyone know wth they are saying with removed arc/radius buff restrictions???

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

dies anyone know wth they are saying with removed arc/radius buff restrictions???

That portion of @Psyonico's post was correct, the powers which ignored radius and arc increases no longer ignore them. They've just had the base numbers for the powers adjusted.

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, macskull said:

That portion of @Psyonico's post was correct, the powers which ignored radius and arc increases no longer ignore them. They've just had the base numbers for the powers adjusted.

So, another buff for Tanks.  If, perhaps, a minor buff. 

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So, another buff for Tanks.  If, perhaps, a minor buff. 

 

Lowered proc rates because powers now get a penalty for their radius and arc, which was not happening before, a 12.5% reduction to the effectiveness of self-damage-buffs (Build Up, Rage, Follow Up), and a somewhat steep damage falloff for mob beyond original target cap being hit is undeniably a bit of a trim. Reports from people playing on Test seem to note it is not exactly being dragged into a dark alley and mugged though.

[macskull]

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Reports from people playing on Test seem to note it is not exactly being dragged into a dark alley and mugged though.

I'm one of those people, but I will admit that was before I fully understood the "overcap" mechanic and I was testing the Tanker changes in conjunction with some other changes that ultimately got pulled before open beta so my testing wasn't exactly apples to apples.

[twozerofoxtrot]

43 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So, another buff for Tanks.  If, perhaps, a minor buff. 

 

There's not a single line in the patch notes that reads as a buff.

 

Removal of Arc/Radius restrictions does not mean an increase to aoe sizes. I thought it would; I was proven wrong when my Regen/Claws tanker still had a 12ft radius on Spin. 

 

Cones went from being 50% wider (as modified by Gauntlet) to 50% longer (baseline) This does 2 things:

1) Increase AreaFactor to lower Proc Rates (where a lot of tanker damage comes from thanks to higher armor values)

2) Increase AreaFactor to lower overall flat damage calcs.

 

Functionality for these Cones has been kneecapped as well. Previously, an 80degree cone like Shred would be 120degrees on a Tanker (while procing like 80 still); effectively the character's entire frontal arc. Now it will be 80degrees, same width as Brutes. It will be a whopping 3.5 longer... 10.5ft instead of 7ft.

 

For this "buff" the tradeoff is truly Increased AreaFactor which drops damage output from all sources as described above.

 

 

 

 

[Snarky]

7 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

There's not a single line in the patch notes that reads as a buff

 

 

 

 

This is like sitting behind someone in an intersection while two green lights come… and go

 

You seriously did not see those two?

 

okay. Fine. You cannot see it. Too bad.  Some people just cannot. Damn shame