I am done with Brutes

[Octogoat]

1 minute ago, lemming said:

Is that why they added a new armor set and fixed regen?   Such hatred.

Interdasting...

[aethereal]

I'll say this for @Maelwys's point (not about ATOs, but about trying to find a niche for brutes that's not just "midway between Scrappers and Tankers"):

 

Stalkers are actually pretty much as badly off as Brutes?  Like, Stalkers do less ST damage than Scrappers.  They have fewer hit points than Scrappers.  And they never have a taunt aura.  And they give up a ton of AoE to achieve...  "less ST damage and lower mitigation than Scrappers."

 

But why don't we have constant 100 page threads about how badly off Stalkers are?  It's because they feel different from Scrappers, and their sets are different enough from Scrappers that people are like, "Oh, well, I want to do Electric but have a decent ST hard hitting attack" or whatever and that creates a niche.

 

I think that if Brutes were more differentiated from Scrappers and Tanks, people would find the exact details of their performance less germane.

 

(Now:  is that a good thing?  I mean...  I think people would be happier.  I think though that Stalkers also sort of don't get attention for the fact that they do in fact underperform Scrappers.  So mixed blessing I guess, but ultimately it's a game and people's happiness is the main thing.)

Edited Monday at 08:40 PM by aethereal

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

A picture is worth a thousand words...

 

Anyone else noticing more runners lately?

 

*It's something I've noticed in the last two major patches and it seems to be really noticeable this one. This goes with the melee hate the devs for HC have made themselves known for.

The victimization mentality and persecution complex is truly absurd and not in the slightest justified.

[SomeGuy]

53 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The victimization mentality and persecution complex is truly absurd and not in the slightest justified.

 

What? 

 

I'll just ask again.

 

Has anyone else noticed more runners?

[Gobbledigook]

On 7/19/2025 at 7:31 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

 

I am crap at articulating what I want to say. With that said, no. I have way to much collected data and more then two decades of play time to agree with this (yes, this includes when the live servers were down).

 

Scrappers do way more than just 30% compared to brutes when both are fully kitted out. Lets's use my fastest recorded average for scrapper and then brute for example.

 

61s vs 122s.

 

You don't even need to do the numbers to already know that'smore then a 30% difference. But for fun's sake...going to anyways.

 

I'll just keep it really simple and do

 

61 / 122 = 0.5

 

That's 50%.

 

No, a Brute will NOT do the same, or edge scrappers out in terms of DPS in long fights, without ATOs. This used to be the case. Hasn't been that way for a long long time.

Are you talking Pylon time? Because i have done it faster than 122s in the past with a Brute and i felt it was capable of doing even a little better. Some players like Auroxis would do even better maybe.

 

Brutes having a taunt  and higher mitigation cap/Health don't need more damage as that would upset Scrappers/Stalkers. They don't need more Tankiness as that would upset tankers.  Brutes need very little if anything now, but something unique rather than just more damage/mitigations might be good.

[SomeGuy]

8 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

Are you talking Pylon time? Because i have done it faster than 122s in the past with a Brute and i felt it was capable of doing even a little better. Some players like Auroxis would do even better maybe.

 

Brutes having a taunt  and higher mitigation cap/Health don't need more damage as that would upset Scrappers/Stalkers. They don't need more Tankiness as that would upset tankers.  Brutes need very little if anything now, but something unique rather than just more damage/mitigations might be good.

 

 

Auroxis is actually the person who got me looking at TW/ELE over a decade ago. I do averages without outside buffs. Build only. Always have. I will do fun runs, but if I share them, I will specifically say what I used, or just say it's a LOL run cause really...I don't care what temps I used, or lore, if hybrid was on. If it isn't perma I don't list it. I've gotten times in the high 40s with scrappers. That's why I do averages. Hell, I used to AVERAGE in the low 50s with TW/BIO before TW (rightfully) got the nerf bat. Hoo boy that set was OP.... If I just listed my best? There is zero way it would be believable. 

 

@aethereal brings up a very interesting point about stalkers. Their playstyle is VERY different when compared to scraps/brutes. I do wonder if Brutes had a very different playstyle if their measurable sub-par performance would be as much an issue.

Edited Monday at 10:11 PM by SomeGuy

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

Stalkers are actually pretty much as badly off as Brutes?  Like, Stalkers do less ST damage than Scrappers.  They have fewer hit points than Scrappers.  And they never have a taunt aura.  And they give up a ton of AoE to achieve...  "less ST damage and lower mitigation than Scrappers."

 

Not sure one should discount:

• ATO which puts you into hide, proc'ing at 5 times per minute
• Having Placate in every offensive set
• Gaining 3% chance to crit per party member on top of the base 10% chance
• A focus mechanic which builds to a guaranteed critical strike
• Crit hitting from hide

Or...if these things are not meaningful to Stalkers, you won't mind Brutes getting them.

 

[PLVRIZR]

On 7/27/2025 at 5:34 PM, Octogoat said:

This horse we're beating much like the parakeet I purchased not a half hour ago is dead.

Are you saying:  "This is an EX-thread!"

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Not sure one should discount:

• ATO which puts you into hide, proc'ing at 5 times per minute
• Having Placate in every offensive set
• Gaining 3% chance to crit per party member on top of the base 10% chance
• A focus mechanic which builds to a guaranteed critical strike
• Crit hitting from hide

Or...if these things are not meaningful to Stalkers, you won't mind Brutes getting them.

 

 

The extra crit chance on a team is totally valid as a point not often included with Stalkers. 

 

I personally think placate is kinda bad even with the buffs it got, but fair enough it does give some mitigation that's hard to directly compare to the other ATs.

 

Everything else is, "even with all that, lower damage than Scrappers."

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Everything else is, "even with all that, lower damage than Scrappers."

 

Perhaps, but (a) are they better at single target than Scrappers and (b) how do they compare to Brutes and Tankers?

[aethereal]

26 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Perhaps, but (a) are they better at single target than Scrappers and (b) how do they compare to Brutes and Tankers?

 

a.  No.  They are worse at single-target than Scrappers (when solo -- I think plausibly they can outcompete Scrappers in DPS on an 8 man team.  It's hard to get solid info because you can't really do rigorous tests with that many people doing all kinds of different things, but the +21% crit chance on unhidden attacks seems like it plausibly would make a big difference).

b.  I certainly hope they're higher single-target damage than Brutes or Tanks, and I think pylon times bear that out.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

a.  No.  They are worse at single-target than Scrappers (when solo -- I think plausibly they can outcompete Scrappers in DPS on an 8 man team.  It's hard to get solid info because you can't really do rigorous tests with that many people doing all kinds of different things, but the +21% crit chance on unhidden attacks seems like it plausibly would make a big difference).

 

Scrappers have a 10% base with a 2ppm +50% for 3.25%, so 53.5 sec at 10% and 6.5s at 60%--average 15.42% over time, though of course a sensible scrapper will have arranged things for big hits to get the benefit of the +50% proc.

 

Stalkers will have 10% base chance + 21% (on a full team) for 31%, all the time, along with focus pushing crits and critical strike from hide. 

 

Question is Scrapper AoE capability versus Placate/Assassin Strike when team sizes get down to 2 to 4 members. Also have to factor in the ability to hide is a definite survivability gain.

[aethereal]

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Scrappers have a 10% base with a 2ppm +50% for 3.25%, so 53.5 sec at 10% and 6.5s at 60%--average 15.42% over time, though of course a sensible scrapper will have arranged things for big hits to get the benefit of the +50% proc.

 

Superior scrapper ATO is 4ppm.  And of course global recharge increases the effective ppm, though a big and detailed question is exactly how much, which depends on the local recharge of the power.

 

Scrappers also have their other ATO, which (superior version) gives a flat +3% minions/+6% lt+ crit chance.

 

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Stalkers will have 10% base chance + 21% (on a full team) for 31%, all the time, along with focus pushing crits and critical strike from hide. 

 

The team bonus doesn't affect the chance of crit from hide (generally 50% for the aoes you'll likely start your attacks with on a team), nor of course the chance of critting with Assassin's Strike, so...  I don't know.  The crit bonus is big, but there are so many variables on both the scrapper side and the stalker one that I don't think you can just calculate it out and truly understand the performance.

 

37 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Question is Scrapper AoE capability versus Placate/Assassin Strike when team sizes get down to 2 to 4 members. Also have to factor in the ability to hide is a definite survivability gain.

 

I think hide is pretty purely an offensive bonus, not a defensive one.  Powerful stealth is heavily available to anyone who wants it, and going into hide doesn't shed aggro if you do it from the ATO (as opposed to via Placate).

[ZeeHero]

Tankers have long been objectively inferior to brutes until the first major round of tanker buffs on HC. The recent "nerfs" are just a minor rebalancing of some of the buffs which may have been a bit too much. 

 

Now theres a good reason to play either. its down to personal preference.

Although I think it would be better balanced if the base aoe was a bit less incredibly tiny on some sets.

[Maelwys]

5 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Everything else is, "even with all that, lower damage than Scrappers."

 

Perhaps, but (a) are they better at single target than Scrappers and (b) how do they compare to Brutes and Tankers?

(a) IMO in general they are, yes.

Mainly due to Assassin's Strike.
AS allows for a much better Single Target attack chain (this is particularly true for sets like Energy Melee, Electric Melee and Staff).
It also has a much better guaranteed Critical Hit mechanic in Assassin Focus stacks.

The Stalker ATOs are a bit harder to quantify - the "Chance to Hide" IIRC still has a 10 second lockout period; so the benefit it grants is rather attack chain dependent... I typically put it in Assassin's Strike (since that is already getting an elevated crit chance via Assassins' Focus stacks!) and then try and follow AS up with either another hefty ST attack or an AoE like Ball Lightning. The "Chance to Recharge Build Up" one is tricksy too - it means you can get away with just putting a single Gaussian proc into the base slot of Build Up on Stalkers and they'll still be under the effects of it far more than an equivalent Scrapper.

The Team Crit bonus is very nice; but it usually doesn't stack well with Assassins Focus stacks or the "Chance to hide" ATO; as Aethereal noted already.
 

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

The team bonus doesn't affect the chance of crit from hide (generally 50% for the aoes you'll likely start your attacks with on a team), nor of course the chance of critting with Assassin's Strike, so...  I don't know.  The crit bonus is big, but there are so many variables on both the scrapper side and the stalker one that I don't think you can just calculate it out and truly understand the performance.

I think the Team Crit buff helps to make up for the fact that Stalkers AoE potential is so much worse (e.g. they get access to fewer AoEs; and the ones they do get tend to only have a 50% chance to crit from Stealth) and it makes them even better at non-Assassin-Strike ST damage for spiking down Bosses/EBs/AVs/etc. However my favourite "Team Stalker" is an Elec/Shield and their two biggest AoEs (Lightning Rod and Shield Charge) don't gain the benefit of Crits at all; so the only boost that really affects them is the "Chance to Recharge Build Up" ATO.

I will say that I think in general Stalkers are easier to min-max than Scrappers since all you really need is Build Up, Assassin's Strike, a few decent other attacks (typically using the Mu Mastery Patron Pool as a filler if your primary is lacking) and a basic understanding of PPM mechanics. That's child's play compared with Scrappers; where you really need to spend a bit of time with a calculator or spreadsheet to manually work out how to gain the most benefit from your ATOs (e.g. the available buff time window for Scrapper ATO2 is not 3.25s; it's the Slotted Attack's Arcanatime minus its ATBE rounded up for Arcanatime, plus 4.25 seconds.... then after you work that out you need to figure out how to get as much damage out of that narrow window as possible via fitting in one or two low-arcanatime-high-DPA attacks and finishing up with a very low-ATBE-high-DPA attack!) and most Scrappers seem to struggle with anything beyond basic addition.

Which brings me to (b)...

[skoryy]

15 hours ago, aethereal said:

But why don't we have constant 100 page threads about how badly off Stalkers are?

 

Nobody uses Stalkers or Scrappers for speed clears.

[Lunar Ronin]

18 hours ago, aethereal said:

I'll say this for @Maelwys's point (not about ATOs, but about trying to find a niche for brutes that's not just "midway between Scrappers and Tankers"):

 

Stalkers are actually pretty much as badly off as Brutes?  Like, Stalkers do less ST damage than Scrappers.  They have fewer hit points than Scrappers.  And they never have a taunt aura.  And they give up a ton of AoE to achieve...  "less ST damage and lower mitigation than Scrappers."

 

But why don't we have constant 100 page threads about how badly off Stalkers are?  It's because they feel different from Scrappers, and their sets are different enough from Scrappers that people are like, "Oh, well, I want to do Electric but have a decent ST hard hitting attack" or whatever and that creates a niche.

 

I think that if Brutes were more differentiated from Scrappers and Tanks, people would find the exact details of their performance less germane.

 

(Now:  is that a good thing?  I mean...  I think people would be happier.  I think though that Stalkers also sort of don't get attention for the fact that they do in fact underperform Scrappers.  So mixed blessing I guess, but ultimately it's a game and people's happiness is the main thing.)

 

Uhhh... what?  Stalkers do at least as much single target DPS as Scrappers.  Most Scrappers don't have taunt auras either.  Some Stalker primaries give up a ton of AoE yes, but not all, and that's what Ball Lightning is for.  You're underestimating both Assassin's Strike and Placate.  Stalkers are survivable enough.  I've done SFs where my Stalker was the only one standing, outlasting a Tanker.

 

If I want just pure melee damage, I play a Stalker.  If I want both melee damage and a taunt aura, I play a Brute.  There's just no reason for me to play a Scrapper ever, IMO.

[aethereal]

On 7/29/2025 at 8:43 AM, Lunar Ronin said:

 

Uhhh... what?  Stalkers do at least as much single target DPS as Scrappers.  Most Scrappers don't have taunt auras either.  Some Stalker primaries give up a ton of AoE yes, but not all, and that's what Ball Lightning is for.  You're underestimating both Assassin's Strike and Placate.  Stalkers are survivable enough.  I've done SFs where my Stalker was the only one standing, outlasting a Tanker.

 

And I've soloed TFs with my stalkers.  The game is easy.   If I need to establish cred, I mained an Ice/Bio stalker for a long time, soloed 20+ AVs and some GMs (though that was before recent GM changes), blahblahblah.  I've played other stalkers to 50.  I like stalkers and while I don't know that I'm a particularly great player, I've certainly focused more on performance than most players in the game.

 

But you're simply wrong that Stalkers do as much ST DPS as Scrappers, and Scrappers can get Ball Lightning or Fireball too.  This is all fairly straightforward and apples-to-apples.  Pylon tests have many failings, but they're a good apples-to-apples comparison of Stalker and Scrapper ST damage, and the best Stalker times are consistently worse than the best Scrapper times.

 

But, and this is my actual point, because this is the Brute forum and I'm not here to turn this into a complaint about Stalkers:  the fact that Stalkers don't perform as well as Scrappers isn't very salient to most players (as you see here), because Stalkers have enough differences in playstyle and approach, and enough sets are sufficiently different on them, that they provide a different play experience and so they don't fall into the same, "Oh, well, what's the reason to even bother playing a Stalker when you could play a Scrapper instead" that Brutes do -- even though I think that if you took away that subjective experience, there would probably be less reason from a pure performance perspective to play a Stalker over a Scrapper than a Brute over a Scrapper.

Edited Wednesday at 06:07 PM by aethereal
Had a typo where I said Stalker times were "lower" than Scrapper, meant, the reverse, changed to "worse."

[HowlingBlade]

On 7/29/2025 at 11:54 AM, aethereal said:

 

And I've soloed TFs with my stalkers.  The game is easy.   If I need to establish cred, I mained an Ice/Bio stalker for a long time, soloed 20+ AVs and some GMs (though that was before recent GM changes), blahblahblah.  I've played other stalkers to 50.  I like stalkers and while I don't know that I'm a particularly great player, I've certainly focused more on performance than most players in the game.

 

But you're simply wrong that Stalkers do as much ST DPS as Scrappers, and Scrappers can get Ball Lightning or Fireball too.  This is all fairly straightforward and apples-to-apples.  Pylon tests have many failings, but they're a good apples-to-apples comparison of Stalker and Scrapper ST damage, and the best Stalker times are consistently lower than the best Scrapper times.

 

But, and this is my actual point, because this is the Brute forum and I'm not here to turn this into a complaint about Stalkers:  the fact that Stalkers don't perform as well as Scrappers isn't very salient to most players (as you see here), because Stalkers have enough differences in playstyle and approach, and enough sets are sufficiently different on them, that they provide a different play experience and so they don't fall into the same, "Oh, well, what's the reason to even bother playing a Stalker when you could play a Scrapper instead" that Brutes do -- even though I think that if you took away that subjective experience, there would probably be less reason from a pure performance perspective to play a Stalker over a Scrapper than a Brute over a Scrapper.

 

From my (scant) experience in the leveling process, I think it boils down to the following;

 

Scrappers deal more consistent damage across a tougher enemy, given the highest base melee scaling for damage plus critical hits.

 

Stalkers burst harder but aren't consistent in their output as they have less outright scaling, but they can crit more often and have assassin's strike.

 

Brutes will soak the hits better than the Scrapper or Stalker, and mechanically punch back harder, but it boils down to how much fury they have. It will be consistent damage, but it's never going to surpass the guys who need a little bit of lady luck on their side.

 

Tankers just eat hits for days and bomb large groups of enemies for consistent, albeit lower, damage values. They're really the pinnacle of "I can do this all day." In a one on one fight, the other three melee folks will probably finish the fight faster, but the tanker will finish the fight alive.

Edited Wednesday at 05:40 PM by HowlingBlade

[Sancerre]

On 7/28/2025 at 4:40 PM, aethereal said:

I'll say this for @Maelwys's point (not about ATOs, but about trying to find a niche for brutes that's not just "midway between Scrappers and Tankers"):

 

Stalkers are actually pretty much as badly off as Brutes?  Like, Stalkers do less ST damage than Scrappers.  They have fewer hit points than Scrappers.  And they never have a taunt aura.  And they give up a ton of AoE to achieve...  "less ST damage and lower mitigation than Scrappers."

 

But why don't we have constant 100 page threads about how badly off Stalkers are?  It's because they feel different from Scrappers, and their sets are different enough from Scrappers that people are like, "Oh, well, I want to do Electric but have a decent ST hard hitting attack" or whatever and that creates a niche.

 

I think that if Brutes were more differentiated from Scrappers and Tanks, people would find the exact details of their performance less germane.

 

(Now:  is that a good thing?  I mean...  I think people would be happier.  I think though that Stalkers also sort of don't get attention for the fact that they do in fact underperform Scrappers.  So mixed blessing I guess, but ultimately it's a game and people's happiness is the main thing.)

 

im a big fan of this as a concept but it is so incredibly difficult to change things in a single powerset (lookin at all you beanbag clowns out there) much less a sweeping change across an ARCHETYPE.  the funny thing is -- the biggest reason scrapper and stalker feel so different is almost entirely because of the way their ATOs completely warp their gameplay around them... and the biggest complaint in this thread is about how brute ATO procs may as well not exist.  someone in this thread suggested earlier about more interesting/engaging ways to manage rage, but i dont think that would go over well with the community.  i think if any 'big' change were to happen to brute AT... the ATO proc is the simple approach especially because people 'opt-in' to using it.

 

as an aside -- something interesting about stalkers in a team environment... the buildup insta-recharge proc can be vastly dilluted via party buffs, or even outright pointless if you are already damage capped with an attentive kinetics in the party.  but its really hard to quantify so many of these variables in a team environment especially because if someone was trying to craft the 'perfect' team comp... why are we even considering a stalker would be in there to benefit!

 

On 7/29/2025 at 2:13 AM, ZeeHero said:

Tankers have long been objectively inferior to brutes until the first major round of tanker buffs on HC. The recent "nerfs" are just a minor rebalancing of some of the buffs which may have been a bit too much. 

 

Now theres a good reason to play either. its down to personal preference.

Although I think it would be better balanced if the base aoe was a bit less incredibly tiny on some sets.

 

i think this should be generally echo'd across the board for just melee period... doesnt need it to be a brute specific thought.  7 foot cones/pbaoes are a crime against humanity.  8 foot cones/pbaoes are barely tolerable.

[aethereal]

6 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

 

im a big fan of this as a concept but it is so incredibly difficult to change things in a single powerset (lookin at all you beanbag clowns out there) much less a sweeping change across an ARCHETYPE.

 

I agree.  Feels like a sweeping change to the Brute AT would anger lots of people even if it set things on the right path, and would just be objectively hard to do.  I'm more...  commenting on why this is hard than trying to provide a solution.

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I agree.  Feels like a sweeping change to the Brute AT would anger lots of people even if it set things on the right path, and would just be objectively hard to do.  I'm more...  commenting on why this is hard than trying to provide a solution.

 

People wondered why I was not a fan of proliferating every melee offense and defense set. Part of what once was unique to Brutes were their powerset options.

 

I asked for something to be given to Brutes which was all theirs and that was met with assurances that all was fine and nothing needed to be changed (you still see that attitude in this thread).

 

Oh well, bring on Ninjitsu for Brutes. If it's all about there being some (horribly uneven) gradient between the melee ATs, then no reason for Brutes not to have Ninjitsu (which has been given to Blasters and Sentinels). And we can pass along Super Strength to Scrappers and Stalkers and Titan Weapons to Stalkers, no matter how silly that is.

 

 

[ZeeHero]

yeah I think 10 foot should be the standard minimum on aoes. it's barely an aoe at less than that. Most melee sets don't have more than 1-2 powers classified as aoe anyway.

a Blaster can hit dozens of targets over a very wide area for high damage in an instant, I think its fair if a scrapper or a brute can hit about 10% of that, which would be what we'd get with 10 foot aoes minimum

[tidge]

On 7/30/2025 at 11:00 PM, Erratic1 said:

People wondered why I was not a fan of proliferating every melee offense and defense set. Part of what once was unique to Brutes were their powerset options.

 

I asked for something to be given to Brutes which was all theirs and that was met with assurances that all was fine and nothing needed to be changed (you still see that attitude in this thread).

 

I agree that avoiding all the melee/armor proliferation helped to define ATs. The biggest 'but balance!' issues stem IMO from consideration of performance at level 50... and HC's (good, IMO) change to give all ATs complete Primary *and* Secondary choices by level 30 hasn't helped discriminate between the melee ATs in lower-level content either.