I don't get the love for Poison

[WuTang]

51 minutes ago, tidge said:

(*1) for example, in some circumstances 'dragging' bosses from one spawn to the next can be more efficient than standing around to defeat a boss.

And in an uncoordinated PUG, how many stay behind killing that single boss? LOL My experience has been 2 or 3 most of the time and at least 1 every time.

 

It's sort of like how in an ITF, on that first pull where most of the time there are two groups, one static, the other patrolling, and more than half the team pour it on, blowing their Judgement and maybe their T9 nuke as well, then have nothing for the huge pull in the first big room. All of these variables... Playstyles account for so much of the inefficiency. 

[WuTang]

7 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

 

It's not just poison... According to your logic nearly every -res debuff available in the game is not worth taking. Goofy thinking at best, the only valid criticism of VG is it notifies mobs. Enjoy your blaster.

Bub, you seem to be taking this personal. How 'bout we tap out for a bit...well, I will, do what you want.

[dukedukes]

12 minutes ago, WuTang said:

Bub, you seem to be taking this personal. How 'bout we tap out for a bit...well, I will, do what you want.

 

The cards are on the table at this point, not much more to say. It's all good 🫂

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, dukedukes said:

 

With Darks 3 sec cast times I could understand not wanting to use it, though I'm not sure your attacks would be any more efficient. VG is a toggle so there's no effort involved. I just combat TP or spit jump (it's advanced poison stuff... don't ask) into fights and VG does its job without me accounting for it.

 

 

I guess not... Well, it's good you picked up poison trap to help out teams like this, or are we team blaster now? The goalposts keep moving around... hard to keep track. I do still remember my Envenom is ~60% better than yours, so that's cool.

I do have the oppressive gloom toggle, almost always running. But solo charging large spawns i toss Dark Pit giving a brief window of mag 4 stun.  This is great for my PBAoE Nuke and PBAoE Incarnate Nuke. But, … on a  speed team i sometimes do not even cast Fearsome Stare.  Just Nuke and/or hang back and add Cone AoEs to Scourge whatever my teammates are nuking. If the fight is tough i do try to get Tar Patch out. 

[Jacke]

I have a Poison/Water Blast Defender who's build I crafted with the help of others including @Psyonico.  I'm unfamiliar with both Powersets, so the build is likely open to improvement.

 

I took Water Blast to have some self-healing besides from the Defender ATO1 special.  Didn't take Poison Trap, but after reading what @WuTang wrote, now I'm wondering if I should squeeze it back in.

 

Definitely took Envenom and Weaken early and slotted heavily.  And worked mostly on getting good RA Defense.  I expected Venomous Gas to be primarily protective against meleeing mobs.  Stuck to just giving it 1 Extra Slot and planning to slot with 2x Enzyme Exposures.

 

 

[dukedukes]

9 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I do have the oppressive gloom toggle, almost always running. But solo charging large spawns i toss Dark Pit giving a brief window of mag 4 stun

 

Mag 4 stun is peak entertainment, great choice. I run that on a warshade with gravitic emanation and inky aspect, I wish they were max 16 target powers but it's still pretty fun regardless. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

In my experience, the dominant "math" is "how many more attacks to defeat the spawn?". If only 70 more damage will do the trick, doing 12% more than 70 to defeat the spawn isn't speeding up defeat times by 12%. By the time this sort of debuff has a measurable effect... we are either talking about playstyles that can be considered "inefficient"(*1) or are of limited circumstance(*2). Even when adventures are advertised as "kill most", it is extremely rare that I see a team trying to "kill most"... of course I have to remind myself that 51% of spawn defeats would qualify as "most".

 

(*1) for example, in some circumstances 'dragging' bosses from one spawn to the next can be more efficient than standing around to defeat a boss.

 

(*2) for example, standing around next to a GM or some other bag of HP.

Try out the math another way. Let's say a generic level 54 boss has 2730 hit points and a generic level 54 elite boss has 5400 hit points. For ease of calculation, they have no resistances to any kinds of damage and their life regen is zero. This makes for conservative estimates of the effects of -res damage multipliers on clear speed.

With purple patch effects applied, damage does 65% of its nominal value to +3 mobs. With the above assumptions about enemy resistances and life regen that means enemies have the following effective life pools ...

effective boss hit points after purple patch effects ... 2,730 / 0.65 =4,200
effective elite boss hit points after purple patch effects ... 5,400 / 0.65 = 8307

 

So, let's say a nuke does 2,000 hit points of damage. Very impressive, the boss only needs 2,200 hit points more incoming (nominal) damage to be defeated. But wait, that pesky VG-using poison character was in the vicinity applying VG to that boss. So, they lost about another 240 effective health. Now it only takes a little less than 2000 more (nominal) damage to take down the boss. The same calculation shows the elite boss can still survive 6307 hit points of incoming (nominal) damage before they fall over. Or, just over 6000 damage if VG has been applied. 

When you add more and more damage to each them the question becomes whether or not the amount of damage added from VG is likely to more than make one or more incoming attacks to the boss or elite boss unnecessary. Since bosses and elite bosses have significant life pools, and in practice they often have some meaningful damage resistances and some life regen, VG is noticeably contributing to damage with every single attack that lands. The odds are quite good that as you're getting close to doing all the damage needed to take out a boss or elite boss that VG already contributed more to damage done than at least one (and perhaps multiples) of the individual attacks being directed at a boss or (especially) an elite boss. 

This is a more accurate way of trying to analyze the effects of VG effects on clear speed, instead of trying to work backward from a small amount of "remaining life" to figuring out the same thing. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:51 PM by EnjoyTheJourney

[tidge]

This comes dangerously true to describing my thinking about -Resistance...

 

7 minutes ago, dukedukes said:

According to your logic nearly every -res debuff available in the game is not worth taking. Goofy thinking at best, the only valid criticism of VG is it notifies mobs. 

 

...where the quote doesn't accurately describe my thinking about -Resistance is this: If -Resistance can be shown to have a reliable reduction in effort to defeat whatever, and the -Resistance isn't otherwise compromising my personal playstyle (or build goals)... I'm reaching for the -Resistance.

 

I agree: -Resistance is a force multiplier. If I'm running a Mastermind, or something else with pets that are damage dealers... -Resistance will speed up my solo times. .. but a lot of this has to do with henchmen and pets being generally worse than players at defeating spawns.

 

I'll also reach for -Resistance when I'm playing something that will absolutely be hanging close with the enemy and not otherwise being susceptible to being defeated or unlikely to defeat the enemy in one or two attacks. (*)

 

As I noted in this thread long ago... for my playstyle VG wasn't helping clear spawns, for my team efforts, I was having to compromise too much in my build to be "at the heart of it all" just to have VG (possibly) contribute. For those teams, I started hanging back (or keeping VG toggled off) and I didn't notice a change in our team's performance.

 

5 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Try out the math another way. Let's say a generic level 54 boss has 2730 hit points and a generic level 54 elite boss has 5400 hit points. For ease of calculation, they have no resistances to any kinds of damage and their life regen is zero. This makes for conservative estimates of the effects of -res damage multipliers on clear speed.

 

<blah blah blah fishcakes>

 

For single targets with large sacks of health, Envenom's -Regen is not insignificant, and it has a larger amount of -Resistance than Venomous Gas... and the -Resistance of Envenom is for All damage types. As I wrote, I'm not anti -Resistance.

 

(*)The question of "how many attacks to defeat?" gets really tricky once %damage from procs is in play. %damage is inherently unreliable, and most proc-bombed attacks use procs with different types of damage.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, WuTang said:

And in an uncoordinated PUG, how many stay behind killing that single boss? LOL My experience has been 2 or 3 most of the time and at least 1 every time.

 

It's sort of like how in an ITF, on that first pull where most of the time there are two groups, one static, the other patrolling, and more than half the team pour it on, blowing their Judgement and maybe their T9 nuke as well, then have nothing for the huge pull in the first big room. All of these variables... Playstyles account for so much of the inefficiency. 

 

This also aligns with my own experiences. Players don't typically coordinate enough to leverage the percentages, so scenarios that ignore player behavior as well as RNG and mobile positioning are at best asymptotic hypotheticals. ITFs can be especially cruel because of the  DDR, -ToHit debuff or not.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 08:28 PM by tidge
Pilums Schmilums!

[dukedukes]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

For single targets with large sacks of health, Envenom's -Regen is not insignificant

 

High HP targets (AV's, GM's) have 60-87% regen res so -50 is pretty bad. Poison isn't known for its -regen, traps has -1000 regen and a bunch of the debuffers have -500. It matters most on GM's and that's a pretty specific activity so it doesn't hurt the set much IMO.

[Snarky]

I am trying to be honest here.  As much as my dumb Snarky (pat pend TM) butt can be.  
 

Corr, specifically Ice Cold Corr, but all Corr, are the TOP choice for hard content.  Because -res and debuffs.  
 

How are we having multi page debates about if -res is good?  Seriously 😐 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I'm as puzzled as Snarky. I don't see how this thread has not yet reached a consensus. 

I've seen rational arguments in multiple game forums for why "additive" increases to damage can have a very marginal effect. But, damage multipliers (such as resistance debuffs, although there are also other kinds of damage multipliers) are usually a crucial focus for builds across ARPGs, MMOs, and other games where damage is important. I can't recall any other game forum in which I've seen players, other than perhaps brand new players, repeatedly assert that double digit damage multipliers won't make a noticeable difference.

At this point, there are other things to do. 

[WuTang]

14 hours ago, dukedukes said:

 

The cards are on the table at this point, not much more to say. It's all good 🫂

But you are complete wrong. I'm not sure how, in your mind, you started reading things that were not true, be here you are, The cards are on the table, sure, just not sure what game you are playing.

 

Peace out...

[tidge]

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

How are we having multi page debates about if -res is good?  Seriously 😐 

 

10 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

I'm as puzzled as Snarky. I don't see how this thread has not yet reached a consensus. 

 

I don't see any disagreement about -Resistance. 

 

The only point of contention from my POV is if Venomous Gas is a worthwhile addition to (some) builds. T9s aren't "auto-win" powers!

 

For the snarkiest among us: As a PBAoE toggle, it isn't very different than Dark Armor's Cloak of Fear in terms of "how to use"... for those of us (me, anyway) who used it before the recent changes it took some effort to get it to be useful, otherwise the common (and unwrong) opinion was that it was pretty skippable. Armor sets of course are designed for characters to stand in melee, whereas the Poison set really doesn't have the survival powers in its own set to reliably stand among enemies... the -ToHit from VG is just one of those things that isn't guaranteed to make a difference (because of the floor/Def softcap, because of enemy positioning, etc.)

 

The discussed "strategies" for using VG sound a LOT (to my ears) like the old "let the tank do his thing before attacking", which has not been an efficient team strategy for decades... and of course the sunset Blaster nuke changes as well as the HC triviality of access to global +Recharge bonuses (should) have reset a LOT of Live-era thinking.

 

For me: Venomous Gas is a niche power. Poison has other debuffs that come very early, with the primary drawback being that the player has to actively target opponents... but considering that most mobiles in a spawn get KOed without a PBAoE debuff, IMO there just isn't enough return on the investment(s), such as:

• picking the T9 (at 26 or 30), those levels are a good time to pick a 3rd or 4th pool power
• investing in extra survivability just to be able to jump into melee range
• investing in slots for the debuff (which are Schedule B, except for the Endurance cost)

As I noted in my comments about Cloak of Fear... making VG practically "work" such that it is having a reliable, noticeable effect is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

If VG was location or enemy-targeted, I'd feel different about it. Poison isn't a bad set, but it has got some stinker powers... VG is IMO one of the least practical, but the worst IMO is the single-ally Antidote. Frankly: along with the minimal need for Alkaloid and Elixir of life in most builds, I feel like Poison deserved a revamp more than Dark Armor!

[WuTang]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

I don't see any disagreement about -Resistance. 

This I think comes from @dukedukesconfusion. He somehow spun something I said to mean that -res was....."not worth taking."

 

22 hours ago, dukedukes said:

It's not just poison... According to your logic nearly every -res debuff available in the game is not worth taking. Goofy thinking at best, the only valid criticism of VG is it notifies mobs. Enjoy your blaster.

I think his passion got the better of his comprehension. And before he chimes in to use my blaster story as his "proof," that was just pointing out that minions and lieutenants all dropped to one strike from one person, and all that was left were the hard targets. This without any resist debuffing. Taking down hard targets is where -res shines. 

 

Nowhere did I even imply that -resistance was a waste of time. I myself slot -res procs just about everywhere I can. Yah know the -20% ones, that are just 5% less than what VG supplies, but I digress...

 

I feel very much the same as @tidge. And like I said in harder modes like star, VG has value. Or.... I suppose by some very improbable chance your Poison is the only thing on the whole team with debuffs in reg content.

 

I've done a couple runs like @tidge where I toggle off VG and haven't noticed a difference. Now with all the variable stack ups these "results" could've been because others on the team were also hitting things with -res or damage was being buffed or....any one of a thousand things.

 

We all play how we want. Everyone of us are good players, we just play differently. This is one of the things that makes this game awesome. There are so many ways to make it happen. I mean I know people who cringe at the thought of running a +4 ITF with no Tank or Brute, but I know it works and works well Rom can be a pain but he still goes down. Any team makeup works in this game, it's beautiful!

 

I seem to be able to make Poison work for me with or without VG. I don't know, maybe it's just been my dumb luck, maybe I've stumbled on to something?? In the end it doesn't matter because the TF will be completed, we'll all have fun, and we'll all get the spoils.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:49 PM by WuTang

[WuTang]

@tidge HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I've been calling you Sovera hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha OMG that's so funny!

 

I'm gonna edit those out but OMG hahahahahaha

 

Sorry! I guess all cats look the same to me?!

 

[Sovera]

I did wonder why I was being included in this conversation. But yes, most things look good on paper but don't actually add much. Look at damage auras. Anyone running a damage meter will see how much they added to the total damage. But if a mob needed two AoEs to be arrested then those five interim ticks of the damage aura added nothing as a second hit was still required. But those five ticks spread over 10 mobs inflate how valuable it is.

 

I've why I never found -res procs to actually shave much time if at all during regular mission tests.

[WuTang]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I did wonder why I was being included in this conversation. But yes, most things look good on paper but don't actually add much. Look at damage auras. Anyone running a damage meter will see how much they added to the total damage. But if a mob needed two AoEs to be arrested then those five interim ticks of the damage aura added nothing as a second hit was still required. But those five ticks spread over 10 mobs inflate how valuable it is.

 

I've why I never found -res procs to actually shave much time if at all during regular mission tests.

Yeah...I did try to send you a DM but it said you were not excepting them.

[Nemu]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Look at damage auras. Anyone running a damage meter will see how much they added to the total damage. But if a mob needed two AoEs to be arrested then those five interim ticks of the damage aura added nothing as a second hit was still required. But those five ticks spread over 10 mobs inflate how valuable it is.

I have been saying this to people that justify taking hotfeet on blasters because "damage auras do so much damage over time" for fucking years. No blaster is going to wait for a damage aura to finish off a mob, they are getting another fireball to the face NOW!

 

As for VG, it requires synergy within the build and it's a power to be built around. In today's fast moving meta where everyone is throwing their judgements, exemped blasters nuking by level 21, I can see how it or any of the Poison debuffs fails to add much value. But at least you can use the spits before you get to the mob, and you don't have to adjust your build to make sure survival is taken care of when you hop into the fray with VG on. The biggest problem with PBAOE auras for squishies is that they don't account for stuff outside of their zone of interaction (in addition to not having a standard radius across the board). Why invite yourself to danger when things are dying quickly, a lot of times before you even get to the danger zone anyway?

 

Having said that I would make poison builds that are built around VG, controllers are better because of stacking auras from the primary such as incendiary aura or arctic air. Those builds are super gimped on damage but I enjoy the passive "I neuter mobs just by playing walking simulator" playstyle every once in a while.

 

 

 

[roleki]

"Yeah, what good IS -Res on a character whose inherent power is 'Scourge' anyway?"

 

 

 

[roleki]

Answer: it's pretty damn good.

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 06:44 PM by roleki

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, WuTang said:

Yeah...I did try to send you a DM but it said you were not excepting them.

 

I routinely receive them with questions about builds, so something's amiss.