Super Strength vs Street Justice

[Ultimo]

17 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Because it would allow the slotting of damage procs into an AoE power that previously did not allow it, it might in fact do exactly that.

Keep in mind that the way you might be playing Super Strength is likely not the way that many others are playing it; IE by leveraging damage proc enhancements and to bypass Rage crashes and overall cause damage to skyrocket when double stacked Rage is rolling.

Unless it works differently than I understand, slotting wouldn't affect the damage of the knockback.  For instance, Hand Clap doesn't DO damage, so you couldn't slot damage enhancements in the power.  The knockback would do a little damage, but you can't slot damage enhancements into that either.  You COULD slot to increase knockback, which would do more damage, but you can slot those enhancements now.

[Shin Magmus]

The legendary triple QUADRUPLE post: you're as skilled at forum usage as you are at character-building.

Edited Friday at 06:57 PM by Shin Magmus

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

It depends on how they go about it.  I don't know how it's programmed, so I'm speculating here, but it's a matter of increasing the magnitude of the knock effect, such that even AVs will be (or rather, can be, since no attack is 100% going to knock them) knocked, but not so much that GMs, Hamidon and other immovable objects would not.  I feel like we're arguing semantics.  Perhaps using the word "unresistable" is inaccurate, if so that's on me.

Let me try it this way:

 

Knockback is an effect in the game that moves the knocked target a distance based on the magnitude of the knockback effect.

Knockback protection is a part of the game that prevents the application of knockback effects unless the knockback effect's magnitude of effect is greater than the provided protection value.

Unresistible effects are completely unaffected by any and all effect resistances and protections in the game. That means that if Rage makes Super Strength's attacks' knockback effects unresistible, there is no such thing as knockback resistance or protections in regards to that power.

 

If you want to increase the magnitude of a knock effect, that is not unresistible. That is increased Mag. If you increase the Mag of a KD power, it is no longer a KD power, it becomes a KB power. If you want to increase the Mag of a knockback power, you can do so right now by adding knockback enhancements without the complication of trying to make Super Strength's knockback effects simultaneously unresistible and resisted so that it affects what you want but not what you don't.

 

Edit: Oh, and as a personal note? If Rage is changed to either make Super Strength's knockback effects unresistible or adds to Super Strength's attacks' knockback magnitude? I will drop Rage in a hot second from any of my characters that have it because that is not why I take Rage on the characters I took it on. Also, you wanting to knock everything is a you thing and forcing everyone else that takes Rage to increase their damage to now also have all their attacks become KB is an asshat move. (Edit again: Just slot more knockback enhancements into your powers and stop trying to force your preferred play style on others.) (Edit yet again: And then after slotting lots and lots of knockback into your powers, you can hit up an empowerment station to grab the knockback empowerment to further increase your knockback effects for the next 90 minutes. You can get Hand Clap over Mag 17 KB with 5 Sudden Acceleration and the empowerment station.  Go nuts.)

 

Edited Friday at 08:47 PM by Rudra

[twozerofoxtrot]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Unless it works differently than I understand

 

It does, man.

 

A lot of this works way differently than you understand. 

[megaericzero]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

I don't agree that it would be more viable.  Control sets are reliable.  Knock effects in Super Strength are not (mostly).  Only Hand Clap is a sure knock, and I'm FINE having it knock even AVs, since the point is to make the effect have STRENGTH.  The other knocks are not certain, and the effect would only last as long as Rage does.

Would you like to take a controller - any sets - and compare how often the CC affects an AV versus how often cycling Jab/Punch/Haymaker alone knocks regular enemies down? Rage is very easy to perma.

[Ultimo]

Well, I see what you're all saying, but I wasn't really looking for an argument, I just wanted to make the suggestion.  They can do what they will with it.

[The Chairman]

14 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Well, I see what you're all saying, but I wasn't really looking for an argument, I just wanted to make the suggestion.  They can do what they will with it.

 

Troll post. Got it.

[Shin Magmus]

It's not a "Troll post", but it is an Ultimo post.

[Chance Jackson]

-I agree Knockback should do dmg for all player sources of KB

-SS should have a low chance of unresistable KD perhaps turned into KB during Rage

[Shin Magmus]

7 hours ago, Chance Jackson said:

-I agree Knockback should do dmg for all player sources of KB

-SS should have a low chance of unresistable KD perhaps turned into KB during Rage

1: Select KB spammer.

2: Kick from team.

[Ultimo]

16 hours ago, The Chairman said:

 

Troll post. Got it.

 

14 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

It's not a "Troll post", but it is an Ultimo post.

And this stuff right here is why I can't be bothered to carry on talking about this.  EVERY SINGLE DAMN POST I make I have to spend an incredible amount of energy arguing over NOTHING.  Semantics.  Just nonsense, and I'm frankly sick and tired of it.  I came to make a suggestion.  You don't like it.  Fine.  I'm done arguing about it.  You don't like ME, I don't give a crap.  I've made my suggestion, and I'm not going to waste my time and energy fighting over it.  Call me a troll.  Spit on me with your mockery.  I don't care anymore.  I'm done with arguing over nothing.

[Shin Magmus]

   I'm sensing a pattern.  Ultimo, if you simply make a suggestion that matches reality instead of being 100% backwards from it (asking for SS buffs when it's the #2 or #1 set), maybe the responses will be different.  That's all the advice I can give unfortunately.

[lemming]

Yea, while I can't say it's a great suggestion, calling Ultimo's post a troll is over the line.

[Captain Citadel]

On 9/17/2025 at 8:15 PM, Ultimo said:

So... I've commented before that I feel Super Strength kind of underperforms, and after playing some characters with Street Justice lately, I'm more convinced of it than ever.

 

The main thing is the AOE.  Street Justice has several AOE powers, Sweeping Cross, which characters get EARLY, and Spinning Strike, which characters get around L20 (depending on AT).  Super Strength gets ONE AOE power, Foot Stomp, which is the LAST power in the set.  There is Hand Clap, but it doesn't really do anything productive (knocking foes away is counterproductive to most characters who have Super Strength, as their armours rely on things like Invincibility or Rise to the Challenge).  There's also very little "flavour" of being STRONG in Super Strength.

 

I have three suggestions to improve Super Strength.

First, swap Hand Clap and Hurl.  Make Hurl an aoe at point of impact.

Second, make Knockback inflict damage, relative to the amount of knockback done.  This does mean Hand Clap would do a little damage, not from the clap itself, but from the knockback... which would maek it a bit useful, even if it does knock foes away.

Third, alter Rage so it makes all knockback UNRESISTABLE.  We see characters like Superman or Hulk, who would certainly have powers like Unyielding if present in this game, getting knocked back all the time, but usually just by characters who are ALSO super strong.  Super strength is used to move things that people without superhuman strength cannot move.  It's entirely appropriate to see super strong characters knocking Lord Recluse, or Hopkins, or any other AV back, because they're STRONG.

 

TLDR:

Swap Hand Clap and Hurl.  Make Hurl an AOE at point of impact.

Make Knockback inflict damage, relative to the amount of Knockback done.

Make Rage make Knockback UNRESISTABLE.

Unresistable Knockback? Hell no. KB is often more of a hindrance than a help, and you can't really push enemies into a corner (the only constructive use of KB) with PBAoEs, they tend to send everything flying away from you. Knocking stuff over is good enough. Bad guys can't hit anything while they're on the floor. It's annoying enough when I'm fighting a lower-level enemy and a regular punch sends them flying instead of just knocking them down, because then I have to chase after them for the finishing blow.

We also don't need extra damage on Knockbacks. It's an environmental effect, if you want to deal damage with it then you should use it to knock an enemy off a ledge. Gravity is the damage component there.

Adding damage to Hand Clap would be nice though, I'll agree there. Foot Stomp is great, there's nothing wrong with it, I just don't think it has to be absolutely the only AoE in the entire set. I'm a little frustrated that Weave is so essential to my build because it basically means I have to take Fighting pool powers and may as well integrate them into my attack chain. Cross Punch should in theory be a good companion for Foot Stomp, but for whatever reason its range/radius is so small that I'm often surprised when I manage to hit more than two targets with it. It would be nice if Tough/Weave could be taken without picking up Fighting attacks I don't really want. I wind up taking and slotting Kick just so I can feel like my character's superhuman strength isn't solely limited to his arms. Still, the animation makes it look less like he's kicking something and more like he's stepping on someone's foot. But that's a whole separate topic.

I think Super Strength has room for improvement but it doesn't really need straight buffs, more quality-of-life changes. Giving Hurl some kind of AoE effect would be nice, but I'd settle for it to just be compatible with flight powers in a consistent fashion. My main is a classic "flying brick" but I can't take Laser Beam Eyes or Energy Torrent because his concept is "Superman-inspired, but without all the utility powers." He doesn't have super speed, super hearing, X-ray vision, heat vision, super breath, ice breath, etc. He just flies, punches things really hard, and shrugs off damage. So, Hurl is the only ranged attack available to him that doesn't break his concept. Unfortunately, Hurl is completely incompatible with flight powers.

Now, I know some of you are already saying "But Cap, it makes perfect sense that you can't just conjure up a rock from thin air!" And you're absolutely right! The inconsistency here is that Foot Stomp and Mighty Judgement (which isn't a Super Strength power but may as well be) already do work with flying powers, as long as you're flying at ground level. That's all I want Hurl to do. If I can slam my foot on the ground while a flight power is active, and I can punch a huge crater into the ground while a flight power is active, it stands to reason I should be able to pull a chunk of rock from the ground and throw it while a flight power is active, as long as I'm close enough to touch the ground.

The other thing I'd absolutely love to see added is some kind of alternative option to Rage. I get why it works the way it does, I just don't like feeling forced to take it. I'd rather have a toggle option that replaces the damage buff and the crash with just the +ToHit buff and maybe the ability to inflict a -Res debuff on enemies. This would in effect be a melee equivalent to Sonic Blast/Assault, much like how Fire-themed melee and ranged attack sets share the same DoT component. "Sonic Melee" probably wouldn't really make a lot of sense as a companion powerset. I just think it'd be cool to have that -Res effect somewhere in melee, and can't think of a better candidate than Super Strength, particularly as a Rage alternative. Thematically, this would be explained by the character with Super Strength refining their fighting technique. Instead of recklessly attacking and overexerting themselves, they've simply learned to make better use of their powers to break through an enemy's armor, locating weak points and literally tearing them open to inflict greater damage and allow their allies to exploit this vulnerability. I'm not expecting this kind of a massive change anytime soon though, if ever.

Really, just adding a bit of damage to Hand Clap and making Hurl interact with flight powers the same way other "ground pound" attacks do would be good enough.