Is it time to address divergent PvP rules/settings?

[macskull]

2 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Perhaps this is exactly why PVP is only embraced by such a small percentage of the player base. It's not their understanding at fault it's the convoluted roles and rules in PVP itself I'd argue. 

Even when PvP was (almost) mechanically identical to PvE it didn’t have a huge following. People were always doing things like going into PvP with their SO’d flying Archery Blaster and expecting to be competitive, then complaining when they found out the game is very different when there’s someone capable of thinking and breathing fighting against them. The funny thing is it was the complaints from those types of people that got PvP overhauled which really just resulted in driving the existing PvPers away without bringing in new people (who were never going to actually PvP anyways).

 

At the end of the day, this game has never been very difficult which tends to attract a certain type of player, very few of whom are interested in PvP. Hell, go into almost any PvP-related thread outside of the PvP section of the forums and you’ll find people who are outright hostile to even the idea of PvP even though this game’s PvP has always been entirely opt-in.

Edited Friday at 07:19 PM by macskull

[Darmian]

Back on retail I got ganked by a few douchebags, sure.  And after a while you knew who they were.  But I also met cool PVPers, one (I wish I could remember their name) spotted that I was just grabbing a nuke and rather than just sniping me and taking the kill went to the bother of telling me I'd lost my Scientist (hadn't noticed it myself, it happens) and guarded me while I went back for her.  They were there for PVP, not ganking.  Respect to that. 

[BZRKR]

Not in my opinion. Maybe put it on the extended task list, but nowhere near the middle, let alone the top of the list.

[El D]

The sheer amount of divergence between PvE and PvP mechanics means they can't ever really be equated again, at least not in any game-wide fashion. Between the alternate functions in IO sets and all the powerset modifications and additions, PvE numbers get way too bonkers to be any fun for PvP and PvP numbers are not nearly super enough for PvE. Depending on the ATs and sets involved, every PvP match with PvE mechanics would either an instant curbstomp or an unending stalemate only broken by select incarnate/temp powers or ridiculous inspiration usage. Conversely, PvP numbers are way too cranked down to be any fun against NPCs (as anyone who has gone into a PvP zone with a PvE build can attest), much less the keyboard snapping frustration of trying iTrials or Hard Mode with PvP mechanics.

 

The idea that 'PvP would be more accepted/utilized if it was just a bit different/broader in scope' is odd to me, especially when considering what PvP already provides. The content in PvP zones is accessible to every player as is, obtainable temp powers are usually buffed to a point of being 'worth the risk' of having to use PvP mechanics/dealing with the potential danger of other players, the badges are plenty easy enough to sweep through (aside from the AVs in Recluse's Victory and even those aren't too bad), and most importantly the primary mechanics and balance of the majority of the game aren't being dictated by an alternate set of rules that are almost entirely less fun for 90% of its content. PvP has worthwhile incentives, allowances for the different mechanics, constraints on how far those different mechanics reach, and is engaged in purely at player discretion. With the consideration that PvP effectively has to be a separate subsystem for the majority of the game to continue functioning the way players expect it to - and for PvP itself to maintain any kind of enjoyable balance - that's really the best arrangement it can have.

 

The only major addition I could see being worthwhile is base raids, but with the level of creative, mind-bending nonsense folks can create with a jailbroken base editor now I doubt even that would work in any reasonable fashion. At least not without some kind of 'this base doesn't meet raid specifications' auto-check system (if something like that is even possible in-engine). The unfortunate reality is that CoX wasn't made with PvP in-mind, both game design-wise and community-wise in the type of player the game attracted, and that's why it exists as it does. That's also why PvP can't really be 'fixed' - at least not mechanically in the ways these discussions hypothesize - without also potentially changing how baseline CoX plays at the same time and possibly alienating more players than any PvP numbers revamp brings to the table.

 

Not to say that interest couldn't be enhanced at all, I just don't think it'll come from mechanics. IMO, the way to improve PvP interest is to lean into community engagement. The most fun I ever had with it were the big Arena contests folks would do back on Live. Last Man Standing, team fights, and just for funsies bouts. Sometimes my supergroups would do sparring matches, either to test out new builds or for roleplay moments. Which character won didn't actually matter - we rolled with whatever the outcome and made it a good training moment or story beat. CoX as a game is built around collaboration and storytelling, which is why the intense 'gank the opposing faction' leaderboards stuff never took off here, but more stuff that aligns with the heart of the community could absolutely work. For fun contests would go over a lot better than any 'cutting edge superbuild player killer' stuff.

[macskull]

1 hour ago, El D said:

The unfortunate reality is that CoX wasn't made with PvP in-mind, both game design-wise and community-wise in the type of player the game attracted

Agreed with the second part, but the first part is simply untrue. You can find gameplay demos from as far back as early alpha builds of the game where the Cryptic employee doing the demo talks about PvP. I'll often hear the follow-up argument that "PvP was added afterwards so the game wasn't built with it in mind" but by that logic the game wasn't built with badges, capes, respecs, the IO system, incarnates, inherent Fitness, additional pool powers, levels 41-50, Kheldians, VEATs, or side-switching in mind either, but those all exist.

 

2 hours ago, El D said:

IMO, the way to improve PvP interest is to lean into community engagement.

Agreed here as well, and there were routinely GM/dev-sponsored PvP events back during the retail days. There were a few early on in HC's run as well but my understanding is the team stopped providing support/sponsorship for them in the way of prizes so the PvP community reps really didn't have any official backing which meant any events relied entirely on player donations.

[aethereal]

I don't know how people would expect PVP with PVE rules on mezzes to be anything approaching like fun.  You're either immune to all mezzes (if you're an armored class or you popped a breakfree) or you get held and killed the end.  That doesn't sound fun!

[macskull]

12 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I don't know how people would expect PVP with PVE rules on mezzes to be anything approaching like fun.  You're either immune to all mezzes (if you're an armored class or you popped a breakfree) or you get held and killed the end.  That doesn't sound fun!

Mez is a binary thing so it's extremely difficult to balance around that. Under the pre-I13 rules Controllers and Dominators were top-tier dueling ATs but under the current rules they're absolutely awful. At least under the old rules inspiration management was its own skill, since you had to both bring the right mix of inspirations and make them last the entire 10 minutes of an arena duel, and if you were dueling against a Controller or Dominator you needed to come out of the gate pretty aggressively to get a kill or two otherwise you'd quickly burn through your breakfrees. These days you just bring 20 greens to most duels.

[Scarlet Shocker]

48 minutes ago, macskull said:

There were a few early on in HC's run as well but my understanding is the team stopped providing support/sponsorship for them in the way of prizes so the PvP community reps really didn't have any official backing which meant any events relied entirely on player donations.

 

That's how the rest of the game runs and it's doing remarkably well for a zombie game. 

 

We are community led, so anything lacking is fundamentally on all of us as a collective. We are our own magic wand. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

4 hours ago, MTeague said:

 

Diablo 2, in Hardcore mode, was Permadeath from the word go. That was just part of the risk of choosing that mode of play, and it was one HECK of an adrenilin rush.  I didn't really object to the permadeath as such.

 

But in Diablo 2, any and all PvP was nonconsensual. Nonconsensual PvP+Permadeath is a recipe for maximum possible grief. Every Diablo 2 player was, on paper, one of the heroes supposed to be fighting evil.  But any player could declare hostility on you, at nearly any time. Even while you were deep in combat and surrounded by other PvE enemies, like Act Bosses. The PvP'ers had to go back to town in order to flag themselves as hostile, but they could still use waypoints to bamph right back next to you, and I'm 90% sure they could use a third players open town portal to get back to the party nearly instantly, too. The culture at the time was generally people joining games with random players, and it was always a "how far do I trust them?". 

 

After finding a small cadre of players I trusted, we agreed to us a particular set of password protected games to block out any players except someone we were personally willing to vouch for.

 

There's a lot in this that I don't understand but sounds awful. 

[Troo]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

I don't know how people would expect PVP with PVE rules on mezzes to be anything approaching like fun.

 

That's not necessarily what's being asked, you could define what would work for you, and it's just a discussion.

 

11 hours ago, Psyonico said:

 

HC removed minimum levels to PvP zones, I believe.

 

I know you can get into Recluse's victory at 1, so I'd assume you can get into warburg at 1 as well.

 

All PvP zones are accessible to any character starting at level 1. (credit: text from Temporal Warriors introduction {which isn't as easy to find as I'd expect})

 

Edited 20 hours ago by Troo

[Troo]

 

Part of me wonders if the zones should have been flipped to PvE after the introduction of Instant Level 50s with all the Accolades ( Temporal Warriors ).

I mean keep Recluse's Victory for zone PvP and maybe another alternate map set to level 50.

 

If anyone is unaware of the Instant Level 50s for PvP:

Spoiler

Temporal Warrior Mode

Anyone can create an Instant Level 50 PvP Only character using Temporal Warrior Mode. It allows starting the game at Level 50 in Recluse's Victory ready for PvP Zone combat. Immediate access to Incarnate Slots, free-to-craft Incarnate Powers, and all Pool Powers are immediately available (Patron Powers require no Patron badges to unlock). There are some considerations to make before doing this:

• Temporal Warriors cannot access any PvE content or Zones, including:
  • Any Mission Arcs
  • PvE Raids
  • Task/Strike Forces
  • Trials
  • Co-Op Zone content
  • or Architect Entertainment.
• Temporal Warriors are confined to the four PvP Zones, Pocket D, Arena, and Supergroup Bases. (Pocket D and SG Bases are neutral ground without combat: vault storage, vendor access, and crafting access.)
• Enhancements are NOT free. Players are required to supply those from your PvE Characters, since PvP mobs are severely restricted in PvP Zones for farming. A player can build and store Enhancements in an SG Base for their Temporal Warrior to pick up.
• Character Origin is Primal Earth -- Temporal Warriors cannot be Praetorian, since after Level 25 Praetorians must choose Hero or Villain access to continue.
• Temporal Warrior names are not exempt from Name Release. All Temporal Warrior characters not used in 365 days are eligible to be renamed.

To use this mode, choose City of Heroes when creating a new character, then check "Temporal Warrior (PvP Only)" on the first screen of Character Creation.

Other Changes

• Most temporary powers earned through PvE content, such as Day Job and S.T.A.R.T. powers, are disabled in PvP zones and the arena. Each PvP zone (and Pocket D) has a vendor which will sell PvP versions of temporary powers such as Raptor Pack. Temporary powers can be re-enabled in the arena using the arena settings.
• Accolades earned through PvE content are similarly disabled, but PvP versions are available at PvP vendors.
• Non-Alpha Incarnate abilities are disabled in PvP zones and the arena, but can be re-enabled in the arena using the arena settings.
• Heal decay and PvP travel suppression has been removed from PvP zones.
• More arena customization options have been added.
• An entrance to Recluse's Victory has been added in Pocket D near the arena terminals.
• The Arachnos/Longbow fliers which previously only gave access to specific PvP zones are now linked, allowing for quick travel between PvP zones.
• All PvP zones are accessible to any character starting at level 1.

 

Also:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issue_27_Page_4#Temporal_Warriors,_Instant_Level_50_PvP_Characters

 

Divergent rule sets (a sampling):

"Dueling, team Arena, solo zone play, and team zone play all differ in what is most advantageous."

"Power effects can vary based on the character using it, or what it's used on, or what kind of zone it's used in."

"Almost any effect of any power may be different between PvP and PvE"

"Some powers operate in "PvP mode" any time they are used in a PvP zone."

"Others produce PvP effects only when used on players."

"Aim + Build Up might provide only +49% ToHit"

"Most temporary powers are disabled in PvP environments."

"Players receive bonus Damage Resistance simply for being in a PvP zone."

"Elusivity's effects stack with Defense to make a character even harder to hit."

 

Former CoH Dev: "PvP didn’t belong in CoH and regrets putting effort into the i13 PvP revamp."

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Troo

[battlewraith]

15 hours ago, macskull said:

At the end of the day, this game has never been very difficult which tends to attract a certain type of player, very few of whom are interested in PvP. Hell, go into almost any PvP-related thread outside of the PvP section of the forums and you’ll find people who are outright hostile to even the idea of PvP even though this game’s PvP has always been entirely opt-in

 

I think there is some sort of power fantasy dynamic that is at play here—the degree to which a lot of players got personally offended if their character was defeated is crazy. 

[Murcielago]

No, it is not time. Thank you for listening to my tedtalk.

[JKCarrier]

19 hours ago, macskull said:

At the end of the day, this game has never been very difficult which tends to attract a certain type of player, very few of whom are interested in PvP.

 

I think that's probably true. I also think that the live devs' biggest misconception was that these players could be won over to PvP if they just used a big enough carrot. Hence, putting very desirable temp powers and accolade badges in the PvP zones. Instead, it just caused resentment on both sides:
"Why do I have to go to a PvP zone to get nukes/Shivans/Born in Battle/etc.?"
"Why are there all these people in PvP zones who don't want to PvP, and get upset when I attack them?"
As I said in another thread, I totally support PvPers having a place in the game where they can do their thing...as long as I don't have to ever interact with it in any way, shape, or form.

[macskull]

14 hours ago, Troo said:

Former CoH Dev: "PvP didn’t belong in CoH and regrets putting effort into the i13 PvP revamp."

To provide more context on this, the former dev in question is Castle, who was notoriously anti-PvP and routinely demonstrated he didn't really understand it. Him regretting the effort put into the PvP revamp makes sense though, since it basically caused the existing PvP population to evaporate overnight without bringing in new players to replace them. The really unfortunate thing here is that the I13 PvP changes were almost entirely the the work of an unnamed junior dev who ended up getting fired and blacklisted after the changes went over like a lead balloon, and the only reason they were actually implemented in the first place is because NCSoft went hard into the sunk cost fallacy.

 

Re: instant level 50 PvP characters - good idea in theory. The requirement to PvE to get enhancements for those characters killed any chance that feature had at being widely used. Why would I make an instant level 50 character if I can't leave PvP zones or Pocket D even though I have to engage in the rest of the game to even build that character?

[El D]

23 hours ago, macskull said:

Agreed with the second part, but the first part is simply untrue. You can find gameplay demos from as far back as early alpha builds of the game where the Cryptic employee doing the demo talks about PvP. I'll often hear the follow-up argument that "PvP was added afterwards so the game wasn't built with it in mind" but by that logic the game wasn't built with badges, capes, respecs, the IO system, incarnates, inherent Fitness, additional pool powers, levels 41-50, Kheldians, VEATs, or side-switching in mind either, but those all exist.

 

Talking about it as an avenue for future content doesn't mean the ATs, powersets, and gameplay loop was primarily designed for it. Every AT was made first and foremost around its function in PvE content and powersets structured for how they interact teamed together against NPCs. That's why they all have defined roles as archetypes; not as a style of combat against other players but for what they contribute to one another in a group. Unless we want to assert that Defenders were given 'your powers support teammates, function at the fullest on a team, solo at your own risk!' primary sets - with some powers that literally can't be used at all without a friendly teammate or NPC target - to somehow evenly face off against Scrappers and Blasters in PvP modes that the game didn't have.

 

Heck, that's also why mezzes were re-structured so hard in PvP. Back in the day it was either 'you have enough inspirations to basically negate your opponent's control powers and murder them' or 'you're gonna get mezzed, possibly stunlocked, and then killed, so you might as well take your hands off the keyboard.' That drastic imbalance was a direct result of mezzes and the math behind them being intended to be used on NPCs, because there was no 'one player in this match up won't be having any fun' considerations against enemy mobs. The solution being inspirations of all things is its own tell, too. 'Purchase a ton of temporary, outside mini-buffs and do your own inspiration mini-game if you want to actually fight in the match up, because there's literally no other way to counter this' is not the result of 'we designed these ATs, sets, and gameplay functions with balanced PvP in-mind.'

Edited 4 hours ago by El D

[macskull]

24 minutes ago, El D said:

Unless we want to assert that Defenders were given 'your powers support teammates, function at the fullest on a team, solo at your own risk!' primary sets - with some powers that literally can't be used at all without a friendly teammate or NPC target - to somehow evenly face off against Scrappers and Blasters in PvP modes that the game didn't have.

The funny thing about you specifically calling out Defenders like this is Defenders were (and still are) considered one of the best dueling ATs in the game.

 

28 minutes ago, El D said:

The solution being inspirations of all things is its own tell, too. 'Purchase a ton of temporary, outside mini-buffs and do your own inspiration mini-game if you want to actually fight in the match up, because there's literally no other way to counter this' is not the result of 'we designed these ATs, sets, and gameplay functions with balanced PvP in-mind.'

A player's refusal to use the tools provided to them is not the fault of the game, it's the fault of the player.

 

At the end of the day, 1v1 matches in City of Heroes have always been very rock/paper/scissors. That's hardly unique about this game - it's true in almost any game in any genre that has both varied classes and PvP. The difference is the game gives you some tools to maybe make your rock losing to someone else's paper maybe not as much of a foregone conclusion. Where this game's PvP always stood out was in the team format - a group of 8 players coordinating closely and working together to win in one of the fastest-paced environments MMO PvP had to offer.

[Troo]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Him regretting the effort put into the PvP revamp makes sense though, since it basically caused the existing PvP population to evaporate overnight without bringing in new players to replace them.

 

yep. I think it's also a (I am 100% putting words in their mouth) "we should have just left it and let people have fun with maybe some more minor tweaks overtime".

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Why would I make an instant level 50 character if I can't leave PvP zones or Pocket D even though I have to engage in the rest of the game to even build that character?

 

well, to pvp of course.

I didn't like the idea, I saw flaws, I did not think it would fall so flat though.