Tank/Brute Protections should all have knockback protection

[MsSmart]

Having a large selection of tanks in the game, it is easy to note that some tanks are given as an inherent ability to be essentially invulnerable to knockback while a few others have no protection at all.

 

As an example, Let Fiery Aura's Combustion have a side effect to provide +4 Mag cumulative knockback protection, in the same theme that heal provides protection against endurance de-buff. 

 

I am not asking, for someone I know will be insta-fast to put words in mouth, I am not saying to make all protections identical, the focus is only for knockback.

 

The stale, standard answer of the anti change crowd, that they can buy enhancements to provide such protection; while it sounds intelligent, it does not address the injustice of some power sets getting it for free and others do not.

 

So there...

[Ghost]

Injustice?!?

 

I think the idea was to give each “armor” a strength and a weakness.

 

Edited Sunday at 01:41 PM by Ghost

[Psyonico]

Pretty sure every set now has at least some knock back protection.  The two holdout were Dark and Fire.  Dark got it in the most recent patch, while Fire got some a while ago (granted, it is only mag 1).

 

Also, Combustion is a Fire Melee attack, not a fire armor power.

[CoeruleumBlue]

Yeah I don't think that matters at all since every armor set comes with strengths and weaknesses. I do think though that if you pick the enhancements and put them on Shield Defense your teammates should be able to get the bonuses too.

 

The only thing I don't like about Shield Defense is that you can't make your shield give your teammates any bonuses other than just the +DEF(All but Psionics) bonus. If your shield should be able to give people defense to psionics, or knockback resistance, or mez resistance, or damage resistance, or teleport protection, those bonuses won't go to the targets of your shield powers, even though you can stack them really high on yourself, so despite the fact you can make a crystal shield, a dark shield, an Impervium shield, and a psionic shield graphically among other things, and despite the fact you can use the shield with different attack powers, your shield is just stuck acting like a generic metal shield that gives people +DEF because things glance off of it like basically armor in D&D.

 

If you enhance it you can actually get more bonuses for yourself, but apparently it'll just act like a non-Impervium metal shield whenever you put it in front of other people, regardless of what graphic you put on it and what enhancements are slotted. You can take knockback enhancements on any armor set, that's fine, but if I pick Shield Defense and have a big heavy rock shield and put it in front of my teammates, they won't get knockback defense too, and that just makes Shield Defense a lot less fun in my opinion.

 

I just made an Electric/Shield Stalker because someone said the teleport does stupid things on Stalkers, but despite having two teleports and having an electric shield that is graphically made of electricity, if I slot Teleportation Protection in it, and put it in front of my teammates, it won't give them Teleportation Protection, it'll literally only give them +DEF(All but Psionics.) My Dark Shield on my Dark/Shield Brute I also just made won't give people protection from Fear or just from Mez even if I give myself a lot of Mez Protection, even though it's a shield made of Dark and all my attacks are Dark, and I can put resist on myself, it'll just act like a metal non-Impervium shield that deflects everything but psionics and comes with no other defenses or secondary effects at all.

Edited Sunday at 04:45 PM by CoeruleumBlue

[MsSmart]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

Injustice?!?

 

I think the idea was to give each “armor” a strength and a weakness.

 

The way it was supposed to be done, is that depending on the type of armor it would naturally have more protection accordingly, so fire would have greater resistance to fire and cold damage, and thus different. There is no reason for any tank protection to have different knockback properties

[MsSmart]

I want to correct my statement over fire, heal provides toxic resistance and combustion endurance  de-buff resistance; apologies for confusion

[Glacier Peak]

Use the tools available to players already. Slot any number of +4 KB protection IOs, use the Supergroup Base Empowerment Stations to craft your KB protection, team up with other players who use powersets that grant KB protection to allies, use any of the Breakfree inspirations before, during, or after an encounter involving KB.

 

Edit: Select and toggle Acrobatics from the Leaping Pool Powerset. Select and activate Clarion Destiny Incarnate. 

Edited Sunday at 10:33 PM by Glacier Peak

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

Use the tools available to players already. Slot any number of +4 KB protection IOs, use the Supergroup Base Empowerment Stations to craft your KB protection, team up with other players who use powersets that grant KB protection to allies, use any of the Breakfree inspirations before, during, or after an encounter involving KB.

Agreed. I have a Dominator that has a constant Mag 12 KB protection. Unless I get hit with a FREEM! or something outside of the normal, nothing moves me.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, MsSmart said:

I want to correct my statement over fire, heal provides toxic resistance and combustion endurance  de-buff resistance; apologies for confusion

That's Consume, not Combustion.  Easy mistake though. 

 

The nice thing with Consume is the end drain resistance is quite substantial, and stacks. So if you get good recharge, you can basically be immune, and laugh at a crowd of sappers as they all hit you and it Doesn't Even Matter. 

[Psyonico]

4 hours ago, CoeruleumBlue said:

My Dark Shield on my Dark/Shield Brute I also just made won't give people protection from Fear or just from Mez even

I would hate if different graphical effects on the same power gave different bonuses.  Suddenly you'd have "i need to use X graphics to have the best combo" which is the exact opposite of what City is all about.

 

Also, if you want to grant your team good bonuses,  you should play one of the classes with support powers, not armor powers.

[Triumphant]

8 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Having a large selection of tanks in the game, it is easy to note that some tanks are given as an inherent ability to be essentially invulnerable to knockback while a few others have no protection at all.

 

As an example, Let Fiery Aura's Combustion have a side effect to provide +4 Mag cumulative knockback protection, in the same theme that heal provides protection against endurance de-buff. 

 

I am not asking, for someone I know will be insta-fast to put words in mouth, I am not saying to make all protections identical, the focus is only for knockback.

 

The stale, standard answer of the anti change crowd, that they can buy enhancements to provide such protection; while it sounds intelligent, it does not address the injustice of some power sets getting it for free and others do not.

 

So there...

 

On the one hand, I kind of see what you're saying and somewhat agree, at least on a thematic scale.  I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing to buff the KB protection for tanks and brutes up to +4, for instance (though I would not regard with the same level of criticism as you.  Injustice as a descriptor seems a bit too much, imo).

I don't find it too troubling, as I can almost always find a way to slip one or two +4 kb resist enhancements in there.  Otherwise, I can solve the problem with incarnates at endgame.  Not an answer to your complaint, I know, but it is a workaround and it's not a (again, IMO) a terrible one.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

On the one hand, I kind of see what you're saying and somewhat agree, at least on a thematic scale.  I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing to buff the KB protection for tanks and brutes up to +4, for instance (though I would not regard with the same level of criticism as you.  Injustice as a descriptor seems a bit too much, imo).

I don't find it too troubling, as I can almost always find a way to slip one or two +4 kb resist enhancements in there.  Otherwise, I can solve the problem with incarnates at endgame.  Not an answer to your complaint, I know, but it is a workaround and it's not a (again, IMO) a terrible one.

Not to mention the Acrobatics power from the Leaping pool grants Mag 9 KB protection. (A 100% chance for Mag 7 KB protection that ignores enhancements and boosts and a 100% chance for Mag 2 KB protection that does not. The only consideration is both protections go away if your character is immobilized, slept, or terrorized.)

[MsSmart]

40 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Not to mention the Acrobatics power from the Leaping pool grants Mag 9 KB protection. (A 100% chance for Mag 7 KB protection that ignores enhancements and boosts and a 100% chance for Mag 2 KB protection that does not. The only consideration is both protections go away if your character is immobilized, slept, or terrorized.)

Here we go again, with the avoid solving the inconsistency with having folks having to buy a power that other tank classes need not...Way to go!

[MsSmart]

47 minutes ago, Triumphant said:

 

On the one hand, I kind of see what you're saying and somewhat agree, at least on a thematic scale.  I don't think it would be terribly unbalancing to buff the KB protection for tanks and brutes up to +4, for instance (though I would not regard with the same level of criticism as you.  Injustice as a descriptor seems a bit too much, imo).

I don't find it too troubling, as I can almost always find a way to slip one or two +4 kb resist enhancements in there.  Otherwise, I can solve the problem with incarnates at endgame.  Not an answer to your complaint, I know, but it is a workaround and it's not a (again, IMO) a terrible one.

That is what I have to do as well with my builds, but the question why should I have to buy them, when other tank power set already have it as a base? That is the unfairness I am talking about

[Psyonico]

Most armor sets get DDR, why don't all armor sets get DDR?

[Rudra]

46 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

Here we go again, with the avoid solving the inconsistency with having folks having to buy a power that other tank classes need not...Way to go!

Every armor set in the game has its holes/weaknesses. And they are there because no character is supposed to have absolutely universal protection. And to deal with that, we have enhancement sets and pool powers. With pool powers existing specifically to help fill in gaps and vulnerabilities in our AT's power sets.

[Triumphant]

40 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

That is what I have to do as well with my builds, but the question why should I have to buy them, when other tank power set already have it as a base? That is the unfairness I am talking about

 

I think the actual reason is probably most likely to be thematic (i.e. how does being on fire logically help you be more resistant to getting knocked around?).  In terms of balance/parity between the different tanking or brute power sets, I don't really know tbh.  The lesser kb protection of fire doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you but, on the other hand, I don't think it would be particularly damaging to the set's theme or mechanical balance to bump it up to +4 as a baseline.  

In essence, I think we both hold the same opinion, it's just that you have much stronger feelings about it than I do.

 

14 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Most armor sets get DDR, why don't all armor sets get DDR?

 

I see what you did there. 😁  But, unironically, I actually WOULD like more DDR across certain armor sets (Willpower comes to mind) and this is a much bigger issue to me than Fire Armors low knockback protection (which is, granted- IMO, much easier to fix with enhancements, incarnates and so on).  (Not to derail the OP, or anything).

[Ukase]

So, I see the request. I understand it. But, I'm like a man who when given the lamp with the genie inside, I'm afraid to ask it for what I want. 

Me: make my fire tank immune to kb! 10pts of inherent kb protection! 
Genie: certainly master. Burn will now cause panic. 

The reason (I think) that fire is so weak in so many other areas is because of burn. Now, that's just conjecture, but that's really the only reason I can think of to take Fiery Armor. 
If they give more protection to fiery armor - what do they take away? 

Nah, kb has never been an issue with any of my fire tanks. There are sets I use that give the protection. Glad armor, overwhelming force, Fury of the Gladiator - don't always have to use the blessing of the zephyr or the steadfast or the karma. 

[Chance Jackson]

8 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, I see the request. I understand it. But, I'm like a man who when given the lamp with the genie inside, I'm afraid to ask it for what I want. 

Me: make my fire tank immune to kb! 10pts of inherent kb protection! 
Genie: certainly master. Burn will now cause panic. 

The reason (I think) that fire is so weak in so many other areas is because of burn. Now, that's just conjecture, but that's really the only reason I can think of to take Fiery Armor. 
If they give more protection to fiery armor - what do they take away? 

Nah, kb has never been an issue with any of my fire tanks. There are sets I use that give the protection. Glad armor, overwhelming force, Fury of the Gladiator - don't always have to use the blessing of the zephyr or the steadfast or the karma. 

Exactly right, who would want the damage capabilities of Dark & Fire compromised to get KB protection? 1 IO will cover you for most eneny KB powers, but there is no way to meaningfully give a damage aura to armor sets that don't have 1, which is fair because those sets get their own merits.

[tidge]

KB protection is literally one of the easiest things to build for using enhancements.... especially for Tankers/Brutes because of the +3KB three-set bonuses from useful sets like Gladiator's Armor and  Fury of the Gladiator (IIRC both Dark and Fire armor have commonly chosen powers that can take each. Those are on top of the multiple choices of +4KB pieces that can go into travel, resistance, and defense powers. SG bases offer 90 minutes of +10 KB protection. How much easier does the game have to be made for some people?

 

This is a request that sounds like someone wasn't expecting actual variety in the game.

[Forager]

19 hours ago, MsSmart said:

There is no reason for any tank protection to have different knockback properties

 

There is. People have given you the reason, but you are ignoring it.

[PoptartsNinja]

11 hours ago, Ukase said:

Me: make my fire tank immune to kb! 10pts of inherent kb protection! 
Genie: certainly master. Burn will now cause panic.

 

Burn does cause panic, it's just (mostly) counteracted by the taunt aura / punchvoke combo.

[biostem]

Another request to "genericize" the sets.  You, the player, get to choose which sets you play, and there is no excuse nowadays that you don't know what you're getting yourself into with each choice.  Further, there are more options now than ever, to mitigate or work around each sets' shortcomings.  Play to your chosen sets' strengths, and use the tools available to compensate for their weaknesses...