Listen to Feedback: Sonic Melee Not Ready

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

they did not listen on the rewrite of Black Hole...

 

I think I may have a different definition of "listen" than some of you.  I consider listening is hearing and paying attention to what is being said.  I submit that HC does indeed hear the complaints and critiques just as well as we hear the kudos and congrats.

 

Some may be thinking of "listen" like when a parent tells a child, "you better listen to what I am telling you!"  Or something similar outside of a parent-child relationship.  In my mind that goes beyond listening; that is "hear me and obey."

 

I admit that we aren't as good at the obey part.

[Championess]

19 minutes ago, Snarky said:

they did not listen on the rewrite of Black Hole...

 

look, the CoH Homecoming team is great.  to a point.  (in my opinion) when they decide to do something they really only listen for echo chamber sentiments.  anything contrary to the pre made decisions is noted, filed, and forgotten.

 

 

 

Well that can come down to the user giving specifics on what they would like to see the power do within a framework of what the devs are aiming for.

 

To give an example, on my alt moniker I had an extra suggestion to build on their TK revamp that seemed applicable since Levitate was already interacting with it.  The original alteration to TK felt like the cake was baked but it needed just a bit of extra frosting for the right amount of oomph to make it an attractive power within MC.  They felt it was good enough and shipped it to open beta where I gave my cut and dry take how it plays with melee style control players and it got the extra frosting.

 

I gave solutions to build on it a bit more.  What I didn't do is flame to try to get my way, I offered to give it a proper critique within the playstyle of the powerset and let the chips fall how they decide.

 

 

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

I think I may have a different definition of "listen" than some of you.  I consider listening is hearing and paying attention to what is being said.  I submit that HC does indeed hear the complaints and critiques just as well as we hear the kudos and congrats.

 

Some may be thinking of "listen" like when a parent tells a child, "you better listen to what I am telling you!"  Or something similar outside of a parent-child relationship.  In my mind that goes beyond listening; that is "hear me and obey."

 

I admit that we aren't as good at the obey part.

you subtly reframed the conversation. 

 

i did not say the Devs do not obey the players.  i did say the Devs tend to ignore the players who do not agree with the Devs ideas and direction.  i even hinted that i understood.  it is the Devs project, they do it unpaid, and they do not have endless time and energy.  ignoring feedback they do not find as useful is their option.  

 

however, turning the completely awful old Black Hole into something ( and this is remarkable ) worse then ignoring the feedback?

 

and i still give an A for effort.  but, it has to hurt...

 

[Wravis]

1 hour ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

I think I may have a different definition of "listen" than some of you.  I consider listening is hearing and paying attention to what is being said.  I submit that HC does indeed hear the complaints and critiques just as well as we hear the kudos and congrats.

 

Some may be thinking of "listen" like when a parent tells a child, "you better listen to what I am telling you!"  Or something similar outside of a parent-child relationship.  In my mind that goes beyond listening; that is "hear me and obey."

 

I admit that we aren't as good at the obey part.

I can see why you would see it that way. It's annoying and frustrating and disheartening to be told people don't like the things you're working on. It's always easy to see yourself positively and others negatively, when there are disagreements. Especially when you're the one in the position of power.

To me this situation is more like when someone is on the phone going "Uh huh. Uh huh. Mhm..." trying to make the conversation end so they can hang up and then immediately purge the interaction from their memory. You are technically listening. You hear the sounds. But you're not actually considering anything being said by the person on the phone. You're just letting them speak so it gets over with sooner. (Not you, specifically. The generic "you".)

Trying to choose my words carefully instead of speaking in broad strokes, because it is true that feedback has been listened to in the past. Even with Sonic Melee, things were adjusted to make the set more powerful, and there was an attempt to change Attune slightly. But it was always just number tweaks and small adjustments. There didn't seem to ever be an actual willingness to consider that the feature wasn't working on a conceptual level and might need to be changed to something else.

The speed that this set was put through both phases of testing makes it very hard to believe that there was a willingness to consider feedback that wasn't just bug reports and number tweaking. If the deadline was November, the set should have started testing much earlier in advance.

Saying "it's feature locked now, but still give feedback" doesn't mean much. Feedback is always accepted. There's a whole section of the forum for it. The issue is whether or not they actually consider it. To me that reads like "we know you don't like it, and you're free to keep complaining".

  

23 minutes ago, Championess said:

Well that can come down to the user giving specifics on what they would like to see the power do within a framework of what the devs are aiming for.

 

To give an example, on my alt moniker I had an extra suggestion to build on their TK revamp that seemed applicable since Levitate was already interacting with it.  The original alteration to TK felt like the cake was baked but it needed just a bit of extra frosting for the right amount of oomph to make it an attractive power within MC.  They felt it was good enough and shipped it to open beta where I gave my cut and dry take how it plays with melee style control players and it got the extra frosting.

 

I gave solutions to build on it a bit more.  What I didn't do is flame to try to get my way, I offered to give it a proper critique within the playstyle of the powerset and let the chips fall how they decide.

  
This works if the what the devs are aiming for is always correct. But it's not. They should be willing to accept and admit that their ideas don't always work. The flaming started when it was made clear there was no plan to actually consider opinions on the set, other than tweaking numbers and minor fixes.

I'm not sure your example is equivalent to this situation. They spent a long time testing those changes. If my math and memory is correct, the changes were first brought up in October 2023. The patch with that revamp didn't come until February of 2024. That's months of testing. Even looking at a testing period for a brand new powerset for a more equivalent example. Pyrotechnic Control first started testing in February 2025. It was tested until June 2025. Four months. 

They only spent two weeks on testing Sonic Melee before announcing it was feature locked (and will maybe get another look after it's released). That's what's frustrating about this.
 

[Glacier Peak]

The premise of this thread is baffling to me. The original poster has been responded to directly and publicly by more members of the Homecoming Team than any other poster on these forums during this Page 3 open beta. They've been directly quoted and received explicit confirmation that their feedback was read by members of the Homecoming Team. The actual lead powers developer responded directly, multiple times, in this very thread. And yet they still continue to say they aren't being listened to? 

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

32 minutes ago, Wravis said:

They should be willing to accept and admit that their ideas don't always work.

 

Our ideas don't always work.  When we find that they don't work, we scrap them or change them.  Sometimes, that may take a long time. 

 

I have no doubt that there are things that we think work fine that a group of players disagree.  Sometimes the Devs disagree among themselves or the GMs disagree with the way things work.  We try to iron it out, but there is a structure and a hierarchy and the person higher up the food chain makes the final decision.  C'est la vie.

[lemming]

Just from personal experience,  I've seen them use a player suggested tweak and also said hell no.   (And quite a few in between)

 

With Sonic Melee, yea, short dev cycle, I don't think it's ready, but as long as the server crashing bug isn't in, it's not going to be a big deal if it's released "early".   If they had tweaked an existing set and had it in half baked state released, that would be a different matter.

[Ghost]

9 hours ago, Snarky said:

you subtly reframed the conversation. 

 

i did not say the Devs do not obey the players.  i did say the Devs tend to ignore the players who do not agree with the Devs ideas and direction.  i even hinted that i understood.  it is the Devs project, they do it unpaid, and they do not have endless time and energy.  ignoring feedback they do not find as useful is their option.  

 

however, turning the completely awful old Black Hole into something ( and this is remarkable ) worse then ignoring the feedback?

 

and i still give an A for effort.  but, it has to hurt...

 

If half the players don’t like something, and half do - which group do they listen to, without being accused of not listening?

🤔

Edited 21 hours ago by Ghost

[Ghost]

10 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I will echo @Snarky's sentiment.  I would also suggest, those that do not like the new melee set to simply not play it.

This right here!

I sometimes get the feeling that some players feel they must approve of everything.

 

NO.  If you like and enjoy 80% of the power sets, play those 80% instead of complaining about the 20% you don’t like.

 

That particularly set or power is not for you.

[golstat2003]

Not every set needs to be tweaked to the point where every player is willing to play it. I find that to be an unreasonable standard.

 

i’m also fine with them making tweaks to things across pages over time. Waiting till a feature is a 100% perfect and feature complete is not realistic. As long as it’s not buggy it makes more logical sense to make changes after it’s released.

 

i’d rather have more pages per year and not less.

 

Hell we’ve had arguments in the Suggestions forum for the last 6 months that that things get released way too slowly.

 

you can’t have it both ways.

[Seed22]

I have precious time and we as players are volunteers too. Wravis I feel your frustrations and over the 5? 6? Yrs I've been here and the 5 at least in CB, yeah it does very often feel like they stack it with echo chamber yes men or non minmaxers who cant understand why exactly something doesnt work or folks who dont want to spend all the time in a day crafting sheets only to be ignored for a vision(this has happened years ago multiple times.) 

 

So what I do is provide my feedback, ask my question, and then go back to other games that deserve more of my free time or whatever else I have to do.

 

Essentially detach from this pet project, test what you want when you want, and minimize your interactions on beta threads outside of just dropping the feedback and leaving.

 

Oh, NEVER argue with the GMs or the devs, you are literally wasting your precious time. Do as you feel they do with your feedback like you said earlier. But be polite about it

[ScarySai]

Idk who is disagreeing here or why. Blind support doesn't actually help HC here, if that's the goal.

 

This set is trash and needs a ton of work to not be roughly as bad as kinetic melee.

 

Trying to paint this like people are assholes for pointing it out in a feedback forum is out of touch to a hilarious degree.

[Steampunkette]

Y'all... look at a Calendar.

 

Next Thursday is Thanksgiving and this is a volunteer project. They're about to go on Winter Break.

 

Which means getting this patch out so people can play it over the next two months before they come back in mid January to pick up where they left off.

 

The Open Beta feedback is being recorded, permanently, for easy access on the forums and stuff so they can reference it after they get back and make additional changes.

 

Could they just entirely cut Sonic Melee out of the page? Sure. 

 

But consider the alternative: They release it in its current state, and the MUCH WIDER playerbase gets to play around with it for 2 months and give their feedback.

 

Potentially providing WAY MORE actionable information on the impact.

 

So calm yourself, it's not that serious.

[ScarySai]

15 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

I think I may have a different definition of "listen" than some of you.  I consider listening is hearing and paying attention to what is being said.  I submit that HC does indeed hear the complaints and critiques just as well as we hear the kudos and congrats.

 

Some may be thinking of "listen" like when a parent tells a child, "you better listen to what I am telling you!"  Or something similar outside of a parent-child relationship.  In my mind that goes beyond listening; that is "hear me and obey."

 

I admit that we aren't as good at the obey part.

If you are going to inject yourself into the conversation, can you at least do us the service of not twisting the narrative?

 

Nobody at any point said that you are to obey every single complaint. But they might agree that ignoring an easily fixed issue every single playtester has pointed out - something that keeps happening by the way - is self destructive and damaging to an already very disliked power team's reputation.

[GM Impervium]

Y'all need to start chilling out. Hid one post already. Any more talk about how people aren't suited for the job will NOT be looked upon kindly.

[Gobbledigook]

You don't have to play the set, which would be like not releasing it at all for you, if you wish. I probably won't play it.

 

Hopefully though when more testing/feedback is given in game, they will allow time to do some real fixes for the set based on the feedback. Just as long as it is not pushed aside and remain unchanged, like Kinetic melee did.

 

They can't get it right all the time especially if there is limited time.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Fun Fact:  Did you know that we can tell if you've logged on to Brainstorm (open beta) or the other servers?  That includes seeing the AT, powersets, time played, etc.

 

Your criticisms and critiques have much more weight when you actually try something and provide data points to show why you think something needs changing.  "Everybody knows it's bad" is certainly a permissible statement to make.  Hyperbole is usually not very persuasive.   

 

A much more persuasive statement is one that shows that you tested the new thing and can provide videos, photos, spreadsheets, etc. to prove your point.  None of those things are required.  But providing them is much more likely to influence change. 

[ShardWarrior]

26 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

They can't get it right all the time especially if there is limited time.

 

The HC folks can set their own schedule though.  They determine how much or how little time they want to take.  This is no longer a commercial product, so there is no need to rush things out, especially if they are in an unfinished state.  If that is what they want to do, then they certainly are welcome to do so.  As I said earlier, those who do not like the new set do not have to play it.  

[ScarySai]

26 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Fun Fact:  Did you know that we can tell if you've logged on to Brainstorm (open beta) or the other servers?  That includes seeing the AT, powersets, time played, etc.

 

We've known this for years. If you're referring to me, its unlikely you have my test account.

26 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Your criticisms and critiques have much more weight when you actually try something and provide data points to show why you think something needs changing.  "Everybody knows it's bad" is certainly a permissible statement to make.  Hyperbole is usually not very persuasive.   

 

Are you claiming that nobody that provided negative feedback provided any data?

26 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

A much more persuasive statement is one that shows that you tested the new thing and can provide videos, photos, spreadsheets, etc. to prove your point.  None of those things are required.  But providing them is much more likely to influence change. 

 

I'd record sonic melee footage if it were not already stated no major changes would be made already, but additionally, let's not pretend that things have been handled objectively for the last few cycles.

 

I think white knighting behind the shield of being a moderator is a bad look, personally.

Edited 14 hours ago by ScarySai

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

 

We've known this for years. If you're referring to me, its unlikely you have my test account.  You'd be surprised.

 

Are you claiming that nobody that provided negative feedback provided any data?  No.  But those that did are more likely to effectuate change.

 

I'd record sonic melee footage if it were not already stated no major changes would be made already, but additionally, let's not pretend that things have been handled objectively for the last few cycles.  No major changes will be for the next few weeks.  Changes are anticipated to be made after that.  

 

I think white knighting behind the shield of being a moderator is a bad look, personally.  I don't think I am doing that. *shrug*

 

[Wravis]

2 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

 

We've known this for years. If you're referring to me, its unlikely you have my test account.  You'd be surprised.

 

Are you claiming that nobody that provided negative feedback provided any data?  No.  But those that did are more likely to effectuate change.

 

I'd record sonic melee footage if it were not already stated no major changes would be made already, but additionally, let's not pretend that things have been handled objectively for the last few cycles.  No major changes will be for the next few weeks.  Changes are anticipated to be made after that.  

 

I think white knighting behind the shield of being a moderator is a bad look, personally.  I don't think I am doing that. *shrug*

  

On 11/18/2025 at 6:39 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Yikes… been decades since I seen one of these high school style line by line replies. 

 

 

[ScarySai]

@GM_GooglyMoogly

 

1: You don't, trust me. Perks of the profession, and a result of some questionable actions by your team.

 

2: Then what's the problem?

 

3: Then it's better to do that when the second round of tests kicks off. I'm sure not going to spend my thanksgiving on QA.

 

4: You are, though.

 

Let's just take a step back here, and don't try to twist this as me trying to harass you or anything: You are a forum moderator batting for a powerset you have nothing to do with, actively downplaying a pretty well reasoned post when the power lead is right there and perfectly capable of responding on their own, and reading these replies gives me insane reddit mod energy, just dribbling with snark and a feeling of being untouchable.

 

Personally? I think you should stay out of it until someone starts breaking the rules. 

__

That being said, I'd rather this not devolve into a pissing match, so I'll leave it there. 

[Ghost]

30 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

 As I said earlier, those who do not like the new set do not have to play it.  

So simple, and yet so difficult for  some.

[Wravis]

11 minutes ago, Ghost said:

So simple, and yet so difficult for  some.

I'm gonna start saying this any time they release powers that underperform numbers-wise. Or any time someone points out a potential bug.

That's just how they made it. If you don't like it, don't play it.

Better yet, don't give feedback at all. Just take everything unquestioningly. If you don't like it, don't play it.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

19 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I'm sure not going to spend my thanksgiving on QA.

 

Exactly.

 

21 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

That being said, I'd rather this not devolve into a pissing match, so I'll leave it there. 

 

Happy early Thanksgiving everyone.  Travel safe, eat well.