page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[aethereal]

16 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

My point is that procs should have almost nothing to do with balance.

 

We are told balance is made on SOs so no assumption should be made that the player is using procs. Since we assume they don't use IOs, they're optional. And procs as a system are an optional portion of another optional system.

 

I always get amused when people decide to die on the hill of, "We should balance the game based on the way that absolutely nobody who pays any attention to balance decisions plays."  Inventions are like old enough to vote, guys, I think it's maybe time that we admit that they exist.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I always get amused when people decide to die on the hill of, "We should balance the game based on the way that absolutely nobody who pays any attention to balance decisions plays."  Inventions are like old enough to vote, guys, I think it's maybe time that we admit that they exist.

 

Tell that to the dev team.

[Shin Magmus]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Literally said in OB on discord.

 

Primary balance IS SOs.

 

Doesn't mean they fully ignore IOs, but it is NOT assumed that everyone uses procs. Cause realistically everyone doesn't. Set IOs are a different story, more common.

   The HC devs sure do deliberately nerf proc rates in powers A LOT for a team ostensibly balancing around SO's.  But hey, saying one thing and doing another is cool.

[OverkillEngine]

7 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I always get amused when people decide to die on the hill of, "We should balance the game based on the way that absolutely nobody who pays any attention to balance decisions plays."  Inventions are like old enough to vote, guys, I think it's maybe time that we admit that they exist.

The issue is not everyone plays the market or fire farms or otherwise has a high level main to bankroll alts, especially new players trying the game or people that aren't hardcore for whatever reason they are completely valid in having.

So balancing with the assumption that everyone is using Set IO's is incredibly hostile/unfair to the latter. The rest of the game outside end game content exists too.

Edited December 18 by OverkillEngine

[Maelwys]

They don't balance around inspiration use either FWIW, which is why emailing them to yourself and/or combining everything into reds can be OP in very specific circumstances.

[Major_Decoy]

2 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

 which means Brutes have always gotten proportionately much less benefit from clicking powers like Build Up, and indeed from using Rage.

 

It'd kind of make more sense for brutes to get aim. (Though to-hit, while enormously valuable, reaches saturation on most content much earlier than +damage boosts)

 

I'm still strongly in favor of the idea that the developers did not and do not make enough changes to the sets when proliferating them across archetypes.

 

I know it didn't make cryptic live, but before the current Rage, there was a period on Beta where they tested 10 seconds of "only affecting self"? (It was definitely better than mag 16 stun, so I recall people saying things like "Taunt duration is 10 seconds, just throw a taunt right before it crashes")

[OverkillEngine]

5 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

They don't balance around inspiration use either FWIW, which is why emailing them to yourself and/or combining everything into reds can be OP in very specific circumstances.

 

I always viewed inspirations as a dev supplied workaround to situations where they weren't able to achieve perfect balance.

Edit: which is stupid important to have when a game allows for as much player agency as it does when building characters.  ToggleMan with his 6 slotted brawl deserves a decent shot at regular content completion too.

Edited December 18 by OverkillEngine

[SomeGuy]

The base damage for SS is so crap that I had the melee record on Live with a SS/FIRE brute that only used *ONE* attack in SS. The only issue isn't Rage. The base damage for SS' attacks are....not good. Very not good. 

 

(These are Brute base numbers)

 

Punch: 41.71

Haymaker: 68.4

KO Blow: 148.5

 

Energy Punch: 48.38

Bonesmasher: 68.4

Total Focus: 148.5

Energy Transfer: 190.2

 

Beheader: 41.71

Swoop: 95.09

Cleave: 115.1

 

The set NEEDS Rage. That's not good. Unleashed Might is actually a good solution. Crashless Rage that doesn't cost much end/s? While on, gives a +DMG and +TOHIT  boost across the board AND has an effect on SS attacks? Also isn't an easy band-aid fix by just throwing in an Build Up option? I like this movement direction. And you keep the current iteration of Rage for people that want the crash. 

 

*Yeah, I can definitely see taking UM over Rage on my RAD/SS Tanker. I ABHOR the Rage crash. Everything about it. 

[PyroBeetle]

I think the problem here is manifold.

 

A. In making the change so that Rage affects Resistance sets and Defense sets equitably, it is a change that is shocking because it hasnt happened in 20 years. That doesnt make it any less equitable, just shocking, and there is a vast amount of resistance to it because of this.

 

B. People are being disingenuous about the true value in Rage is that it isnt about how it affects SS, it is about how it affects Gloom and Dark Obliteration and Cross Punch. Proc bombing these powers allows for a vast increase in overall ST and AoE efficacy. Arguments about balancing SS against Axe and Fiery Melee and Savage fall short because none of those sets use proc bombed epics to achieve good damage output. This change is not taking that ability away, it is leaving it in place, but is providing a viable alternative in UM, so I dont understand the resistance.

 

C. That UM seemingly benefits Brutes more than Tanks because absent proc bombing Brutes are supposed to do a great deal more damage than tanks once Fury is factored in. This makes the way that UM works make it so that Brutes dont need to bother with the fussiness of double stacking rage, proc bombing and the like, which results in a smoother, if ultimately less effective, playstyle. Brutes are not supposed to be compared to tankers in terms of damage, tankers were way overtuned, and have recently been scaled back so complaining that a Brute does more damage is like complaining that water is wet.

 

Objectively, having played the sets, I still enjoy rage on my Regen/SS Tank, and I will be rolling a SS Brute with UM instead of Rage. The changes are fine, and complaining about them because they are changes is creating false narratives just to avoid change.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

Likewise here, Rage beats UM in To-hit and Damage.  By a reasonable amount, especially if double stacked.  Which is why we have this 18 page (as of this post) thread with people bargaining to lessen Rage's drawbacks.  Despite UM being a good option, they want that extra damage. 

 

No. I'm taking my Brute UM. I argue against the Rage changes because if it is going to be in the game it shouldn't be so hobbled as to not really be a viable choice.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

No. I'm taking my Brute UM. I argue against the Rage changes because if it is going to be in the game it shouldn't be so hobbled as to not really be a viable choice.

 

I have to bite... how is changing it from -20% def to -10%def/-20% res actually hobbling the power? After already explaining how any resistance set already above 90% resist in a given area is barely going to feel it. After already seeing how its current config screws over defense based armors far more than resistance based armors. How does this change hobble Rage?

Cuz that is the ONLY change to rage listed in the OP.

[Forager]

On 12/5/2025 at 5:33 PM, The Curator said:

This power is now a narrow cone with a 10 degree arc that can hit up to 5 targets in a straight line

 

Man whoever came up with this idea is a genius.

[SomeGuy]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I have to bite... how is changing it from -20% def to -10%def/-20% res actually hobbling the power? After already explaining how any resistance set already above 90% resist in a given area is barely going to feel it. After already seeing how its current config screws over defense based armors far more than resistance based armors. How does this change hobble Rage?

Cuz that is the ONLY change to rage listed in the OP.

 

 

On Live, Rage only had the -DEF debuff during the crash if it wasn't stacked. That was a change a few years before HC was a thing. The change really hurt DEF based armor sets. So this change spreads that out to RES sets, so I definitely agree with you. Now...do I think a hit to survivability should be included in Rage? Nope. Not at all. But that's not this subject. 

 

I HATE the current way Rage works. Ten seconds of not being able to do nothing AND you take a pretty hefty hit to survivability? Not to mention the end zap during the crash, which can kill you also. 

 

I'm with @Erratic1.  UM, on a Brute, just seems way better to me since a Brute's whole gimmick is to keep attacking. 

 

I think adding UM as an option, as opposed to pissing off a large portion of players and drastically changing Rage, is a smart move. Options are good.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I have to bite... how is changing it from -20% def to -10%def/-20% res actually hobbling the power? After already explaining how any resistance set already above 90% resist in a given area is barely going to feel it. After already seeing how its current config screws over defense based armors far more than resistance based armors. How does this change hobble Rage?

Cuz that is the ONLY change to rage listed in the OP.

 

Hybrid sets exist and typically with uneven values in their protective powers because it is stupidly hard to max resistance and defenses across the board, let alone overcap.

 

Or is "fairness" only something that applies to pure Defense sets?

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Hybrid sets exist and typically with uneven values in their protective powers because it is stupidly hard to max resistance and defenses across the board, let alone overcap.

 

Or is "fairness" only something that applies to pure Defense sets?

 

Hyrbids sets do exist and they get double-tapped by this change. As it is on live, defense sets get hit the worst, hybrid next and resistance sets laugh and laugh and laugh.

With the change, hybrid sets get double-tapped, defense gets hit and resistance gets hit.

 

And absolutely none of this hobbles rage. It still cruises along at +140% damage and +40% tohit for 50 seconds out of every 60 when double-stacked. On tanks.

 

Arguing against splitting the pain of the crash is moronic, myopic, selfish, and short-sighted.

Edited December 18 by Bill Z Bubba

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, OverkillEngine said:

The issue is not everyone plays the market or fire farms or otherwise has a high level main to bankroll alts, especially new players trying the game or people that aren't hardcore for whatever reason they are completely valid in having.

So balancing with the assumption that everyone is using Set IO's is incredibly hostile/unfair to the latter. The rest of the game outside end game content exists too.

 

Sure, why not, let's go over it again.

 

So what does "balance based on SOs" actually mean?  There are two different ways to interpret this:

 

1.  Hey, let's not making +0/x1 content prohibitively difficult to people who don't use IOs.

 

Check.  Let's not.

 

2.  WE ARE PROHIBITED FROM EVER MAKING ANY BALANCE DECISION BASED ON INTERACTIONS WITH IOs FOR REASONS!

 

This is dumb.

[ScarySai]

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Depends on the content; and the playstyle.

No, not really. In other cases, sure, but not here. If a fire armor brute with soul isnt propelling Ss to the top bracket, NOTHING will, so let's stop pretending this is a valid concern.

 

5 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Cross Punch has been covered already

 

Cross punch requires two useless power picks to even be worth considering, and the bulk of it's value is to be a proc carrier, which UM hand clap does much better.

 

If you're someone that enjoys cross punch, UM+ hand clap is better in every conceivable way short of maybe overpowering stacking -tohit.

Edited December 18 by ScarySai

[Bill Z Bubba]

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/3199-design-formulas/page/2/

 

Original power equations.

 

(0.2*(0.8*Recharge+1.8)) = damage
Jab .68 damage scale
Punch 1 damage scale
Haymaker 1.64 damage scale
KO Blow 4.36 damage scale (CoD shows 3.56 but the power also has a Mag 3 10*melee_stun effect Hold, so that explains the reduced damage)
Hurl 1.64 damage scale

 

(Standard Damage Formula)*EndConstraint*ATConstraint*10
.68*.65*.8*10 = Jab 3.536
1*.65*.8*10 = Punch 5.2
1.64*.65*.8*10 = Haymaker 8.528
3.56*.65*.8*10 = KO Blow 18.512 End cost matches 3.56 set value for damage scale
1.64*.65*.8*10 = Hurl 8.528 Does not match 9.66 end cost on CoD. Why it's costing the end of a power that does 1.858 damage scale I do not know. Do ranged powers generally cost more end than the equation says they should?

 

Lastly, Foot Stomp. Radius 15' so Area Factor is Spheres: (1+(Radius*0.15)) = 3.25
Damage scaler for FS should be (0.2*(0.8*20+1.8)) / 3.25 = 1.095 but it's 1.42 and includes KD.
End cost for 1.42 should be 7.384 but CoD shows 18.512 and there's no indication in that thread showing how making a power an AoE should affect end cost.

 

So the majority of SS follows the original equations. Rage isn't a correction for a dumbed down set, it's an aberration in need of a correction.

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So the majority of SS follows the original equations. Rage isn't a correction for a dumbed down set, it's an aberration in need of a correction.

 

Your error is assuming the equations are a hard rule and not a guideline.

 

Occams razor applies here: if you were correct, super strength wouldn't be underperforming.

Edited December 18 by ScarySai

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Your error is assuming the equations are a hard rule and not a guideline.

 

Occams razor applies here: if you were correct, super strength wouldn't be underperforming.

 

I'm fully aware they're not a hard rule. Just negating a point made earlier. And your statement that it's underperforming as a set based on nothing but ST damage is beyond misguided.

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And your statement that it's underperforming as a set based on nothing but ST damage is beyond misguided

 

You're more than welcome to prove it wrong.

 

Ston's test still holds for non-um SS, and with the radius buffs, exactly what I said will be the case. Sets like martial and savage will trash SS given the boosted radius, without crutching on double rage.

[FupDup]

One important part of the sacred formula is recharge. The crappier SS powers are set to recharge quicker than corresponding powers in other sets, which means their damage got scaled down with it. Sometimes in patch notes we've seen the devs do this trick where they slow down the recharge for higher damage, and SS is that concept in reverse. 

[ScarySai]

5 minutes ago, FupDup said:

One important part of the sacred formula is recharge. The crappier SS powers are set to recharge quicker than corresponding powers in other sets, which means their damage got scaled down with it. Sometimes in patch notes we've seen the devs do this trick where they slow down the recharge for higher damage, and SS is that concept in reverse. 

 

Increasing recharge in the current game is probably the most generous tuning knob we have while appeasing those who hold the formula in a far higher regard than the post-jack devs ever have.

 

My main point was more akin to the fact that the devs really didn't hold the formula in as high of a regard as the HC devs (and some incredibly misinformed players) do.

Edited December 18 by ScarySai

[Sebastian]

Every person who says SS rage is overpowered whilst we have clear results from a metric bleep tonne of pylon and mission clear speed tests showing it is middling needs their access to testing revoked and to be issued an iq test immediately. 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And absolutely none of this hobbles rage. It still cruises along at +140% damage and +40% tohit for 50 seconds out of every 60 when double-stacked. On tanks.

 

Arguing against splitting the pain of the crash is moronic, myopic, selfish, and short-sighted.

 

Only if you ignore what people are saying and make up--like you did--what the real point is.