Lets talk about Stone Armor:

[Zolgar]

I have an opinion, one that is shared by many:

Pre-Granite, Stone armor is the worst armor set in the game.

 

Some will argue that Regen is worse, and while I can see their points I do disagree.

 

Now, this is the part where someone tells me “But Granite is amazing so Stone is fine as is.” to which, I say:

First, Granite is only ‘decent’ in the current state of the game.
Second, 31 (or 37) levels of being absolute garbage should not need to be suffered through to be able to do what you’re supposed to do from level 1. Literally no other set in the game is so painful to play before you get your capstone.

 

Now, this is all subjective, let’s look at things objectively.

Stone is an old set, so we’ll compare it to the old sets. It wouldn’t be fair to compare it to Shield or Bio, since those sets are modern and have a higher power curve.

 

For the first set of comparisons, let’s look at SOs only. Now, the survival numbers I am using here will indicate the full suite of the primary powers, except the T9, for a tank. I am starting with SOs only because the game is “supposed to be” balanced to SOs (I disagree with this sentiment, but I will entertain the notion for the moment).

 

Stone tank, with Tough, Weave and Maneuvers, all toggles active. Each toggle has 3 SOs of the applicable type (res/def) and 2 end redux, also has mudpots with 2 end redux, Stamina is 3 slotted, physical perfection has 2 end mod/1 heal (for the record, this build has 18 slots left to apply to their attack powers):

Defense:

• Smashing/Lethal: 36.3%
• Fire/Cold: 11.3%
• Energy/Negative: 36.3%
• Psionic: 50.3
• Positionals: 11.3%

 

Resists:

• Smashing: 39%
• Lethal: 39%
• Fire: 39%
• Cold: 39%
• Energy: 0
• Negative: 0
• Toxic: 0
• Psionic: 0

 

Health/end:

• Regen: 375% (29 hp/sec without Earth’s Embrace, 46 with)
• Max HP: 100% without, 159% with. EE has approximately a 65% uptime, slightly greater if I burn a power pick on Hasten.
• Recovery: 2.83/sec
• Consumed: 1.84/sec

 

It’s also worth noting that this build has a run speed below 10mph with 2 slotted Swift, and cannot jump over obstacles, so was forced to take Teleport to have any form of mobility at all- WITHOUT Granite. I will also mention that no other original tanker set has that sort of penalty on their mez protection. Would you like to know how often my leveling stone brute gets mezed because I had to drop rooted to chase the team (because teleport through winding sewers is super inefficient) and I don’t quite get it toggled back on before I hit the fight?

 

Now, what set shall I compare it to? Invuln? Ice? Fire? Dark? My choice is Ice, because Ice is a very similar set to Stone- Defense based with a bit of resists baked in, not a lot of regen baked in, and the only self heal being a Dull Pain style power.

 

So for Ice, I used a basically identical build, I tossed Combat Jumping in to the mix, slotting is pretty much the same. Fun fact! This build has 20 slots to play with. Because this build has permanent uptime on Energy Absorption, I am using the numbers for 1 target hit.

 

Defense:

• Smashing/Lethal: 44.8%
• Fire/Cold: 18.2%
• Energy/Negative: 44.8%
• Psionic: 15.2%
• Positionals: 15.2%

 

Resists:

• Smashing: 23.4%
• Lethal: 23.4%
• Fire: 32%
• Cold: 90%
• Energy: 0
• Negative: 0
• Toxic: 0
• Psionic: 0

 

Health/end:

• Regen: 180% (14 hp/sec without Hoarfrost, 22 with)
• Max HP: 100% without, 159% with. HF has approximately a 65% uptime, slightly greater if I burn a power pick on Hasten.
• Recovery: 2.83/sec (plus every 35 seconds, we’ll get endurance back from Energy Absorption)
• Consumed: 1.6/sec

 

With only one run speed SO in Swift, this build runs 21 mph, and can jump over obstacles.

So, let’s compare those numbers for a moment:

Defense: Stone clearly loses on defense. Everything but psi is lower for Stone, the softcapped psi defense for stone is nice, I will admit.

Resist: Technically, Ice wins here. Ice has combined higher resists than Stone. Though, I think I would actually give it to Stone because Smashing, Lethal, and Fire are more common than Ice.

 

Effective damage mitigation per damage type (vs. even level minions without +to-hit bonuses):

• Smashing/Lethal: Stone 91.6%, Cold 96.2%
• Fire: Stone 76.4%, Cold 78.4%
• Cold: Stone 76.4%, Cold 96.8%
• Energy/Neg: Stone: 86.3%, Cold: 94.8%
• Psi: Stone 95%, Cold 65.2%

 

The only place where the effective mitigation of Stone beats that of Ice is in Psionic damage. While it’s true that Stone regenerates more HP per second, the totals regen from either set it not really enough at level 50 to be considered anything but downtime reduction. Ice can eke a bit more effective mitigation out from everything but psi by hitting more than 1 foe from Energy Absorption. Ice consumes less endurance and has a means of endurance recovery baked in.

 

So Ice has better stats almost across the board, a powerful endurance recovery tool, and no movement penalties, and gains the added survival of Chilling Embrace, slowing down the incoming attacks and reducing their damage.

And Ice is honestly not even really a top-tier set (it’s better than people give it credit for, I actually really like the set. Then again, I really like stone too even though it’s so bad).

 

“But Zolgar what about IO sets and incarnate powers and…”

Yeah, those are things, but in very few cases do they bring one set above a comparable set that was better than it without. I don’t feel like taking the time to do two IO builds out and breaking down all the numbers a second time.

 

“But Zolgar, Granite is a toggle god-mode!”

Sure. Ish, at least. Slotted with 3/3 def/res, Granite with weave and maneuvers will put you to about 43% def all but Psi, and 78% res all but psi (Stone Skin brings you to 90% smashing/lethal), which is great. A 12.6 mph tun speed without rooted, a whopping 1.4 with! While you’re at it, take -65% global recharge and -30% global damage because screw you that’s why. In a purely SO world, that’s good, but as I just acknowledged above, this isn’t a purely SO world. In the IO/Incarnate world, we can easily flip that to softcapped/near rescapped all (but psi) for Granite.

 

In the IO/Incarnate world, you can build appreciable amounts of defense and resist in to a lot of sets, and what you lack in those, you will make up for in regeneration, self heal tricks, or DPS because you’re attacking faster and hitting harder. And you can actually move.

 

Stone, over all, is the last artifact of the original ideaology of armor sets:

Toggles were meant to be one or another, not all running at once.

Mez protection was meant to come at a price. (These two factors are also why the clicky mez protection of Super Reflexes was so good. … but that is another post)
ED and the GDN hadn’t struck the world yet. IOs and Incarnates were not even a concept yet.

 

In that world, Stone was undeniably the supreme leader of tanking, but it came at a heavy price.

In this world, the level of durability you get out of Stone armor, compared to other sets, comes at too high of a price to make the set all that viable.

 

So how do we fix that?

This, I don’t claim to know as much. I can examine and crunch numbers for days, but to find a way to adjust Stone to make it balanced in the current environment, that’s a lot harder.

 

I might suggest something along the lines of:

 

• Rock Armor: Increase the defense to bring it inline with Frozen Armor from Ice, add Smashing/Lethal resist to it.
• Stone Skin: Add a small tick of Absorb.
• Earth’s Embrace: Leave it alone, dull pain powers are good.
• Rooted: Switch places with Mudpots (the mez protection comes too late in the set, IMO), remove the run speed penalty, allow jumping with a significant height debuff, leave it mutually exclusive with movement powers, increase the regen by about 50%.
• Mudpots: Lower the endurance cost, remove the Immobilize effect (in all my years playing Stoners, I never noticed things being immobilized by this power), add a defense debuff.
• Brimstone Armor: Add a minor fire damage proc to all attacks (think of it like baby’s first Reactive Interface).
• Crystal Armor: Bare minimum increase the defense to bring it inline with Glacial Armor from ice. 
• Minerals: Add an Endurance discount.
• Granite: If it would be possible what I would love to see with Granite is its core stats unchanged (except removing the inability to jump), but have each of the other armor toggles reduce the penalties for Granite, so that if you have all four of the other armors, Granite’s only penalty is not being able to run very fast or jump very high. I would also like to see the runspeed debuff reduced a little bit.

The reason for that posed change to Granite is, one of the problems with Stone armor right now is it’s basically “get to Granite, forget half of the rest of the set exists.” so you usually end up respeccing out of them.

These changes over all, would allow a Stoner outside of Granite to be more survivable and less hindered or reliant upon teleport, while making Granite worth using for the big fights. You can still play Stone the old way if you want, and the penalties for Granite make up for the fact that you have 3 or 4 (depending on brute or tank) extra power picks.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

Stone pre-granite in its day was decent in PvP before they made PvP a joke. It is terrible against large, even leveled mobs when playing solo.... but is actually pretty darned decent when in a team. I often played my stone out of granite on teams until it was time to tank an AV etc. I think that with granite the way it is....which is simply one of the most balanced abilities a tank or brute can have, there would be no changes to the rest. All I could see is elusivity added as part of the normal abilities and maybe more defense. Otherwise, all those other abilities were basically designed to get you through the leveling process to granite (back when SOs were it).

However, I am not talking out of my rear here. In the old days of around 2005-2006 when I went to the new CoV side, I spent a lot of time in PvP (the old and good PvP)... and have a few vids showing that the pre-granite abilities were pretty decent.... Not really sure what they should do...if anything to the stone set.. Have to be careful what is done or it will start stepping on the toes on other AT power sets...like WP did with Regen imo. In all honesty, even in live before all the IOs, etc, I always did a respec on my stones once I hit 40 (and then later on 50) that got rid of nearly all the stone set except for granite, rooted, self heal, and kept the smash/lethal defense toggle. Other than building taking powers in a certain order for PvP (BB and SC) and of course the fitness pool..., I typically didn't use much of the stone set. Again, the set was pretty decent before the IO era....and stone was probably the best or darn close to the best tank set along side invuln.

 

One of my vids I found on my external drive from the days when I believe the game was in its prime... Have a ton more vids..just trying to clean them up etc. This fight was one of my favorite..

 

[Zolgar]

I ain't talking out my ass either mate. I've played several stoners to and at 50. I am actively leveling a stoner right now.

In the current meta, a stone brute or tank is a joke unless they have a kin on the team with them. Stone NEEDS to be fixed, especially pre-granite, because, and I cannot stress this enough:

 

A power set should not be so unpleasant to play that you literally hate it more and more every time you play it because it cannot do anything it is supposed to, just because it's capstone ability is "good" (not amazing, not great, just good). Leveling a stone brute is painful. Even doing taskforces I love, I am HATING playing this character.

[Voldine]

I just don't like the fact that when you pop Granite you're forced out of minerals you either have subpar defense in this armor set, but you have psi defense, and really good psi defense at that, or you have outstanding defense and resistance to everything except psi. I mean I get it Granite is a toggle, will always be a toggle, and it's a toggle tier nine power, which for most armor sets is God mode that's temporary. There's also the matter of respecting the cottage rule as it used to be called where Powers would never be changed fundamentally to be so vastly different that they were unrecognizable. 

 

I think one of the biggest problems with stone armor and granite armor in particular is that Granite is specifically excluded from working together with almost all of the other powers in the set. The only powers that it works with other than the heal and the auto Power is the mezz protection and mud pots, that's it. Granite works with two out of the seven other powers in the set plus the one auto power and the heal. Making things even worse is that the power is don't really work very well outside of the City of Heroes experience. What I mean by that is that the power progression in stone armor really only feels like it works even slightly in Paragon City because at low levels in the Rogue Isles, city of villains, you're going to be facing energy based attacks fairly regularly because you'll run into arachnos and arachnos have those energy maces. Praetoria is absolute hell for stone armor and it always has been. That was actually my biggest complaint in the going rogue beta was that this is absolute hell for stone armor it's a hell far beyond even the early game of City of Heroes and city of villains simply because of the absolute plethora of enemy groups that use energy in the early game. I would sooner give ncsoft another hundred and fifty dollars then I would ever try to level up a stone armor character in the going rogue expansion zones. Then again I'm pretty sure the same problem applies equally well to all armor sets but with them starting off with smashing lethal then typically fire ice then energy then maybe some psi...

 

I'm getting off topic yeah so I don't know what they would or could be able to do with a bit of a stone armor revamp I could see maybe splitting up some of the specialization of the skills so that the toggles do a little bit more to work together into a proper toggled armor.set much like we have with Shield but at the same time I wouldn't want to completely use the unique identity of stone armor in that it's the set that has just so much bundled into one power. What would be nice is if as a panic button mode what Granite armor did instead of detoggling all of the powers was to refactor all other powers so that it cut what the other powers grant you in half while also turning off their endurance costs and then it has its own endurance cost and it adds on to the other powers to the point where it gets to its own current baseline with so slotting so you take what the other powers capped out at with so's cut that in half and then that becomes the Baseline onto which Granite adds and then as soon as Granite is turned off the other powers come back on at their normal strength. Just the fact that cutting the defense that minerals grants in half alone would still make psionic something that you would fear situationally if you were in Granite and got ambushed by something that dealt psionic damage. Psionic would no longer be simply I cannot tank that in Granite and it would be oh this is going to hurt me more often in Granite. So psionic when it hits is still going to hurt a lot because I would not say give psionic resistance in Granite, does the fact that drain it does not give psionic resistance or defense makes ionic a hole in the side and it needs a hole in the power but it would be a better power if it's still had some effect from minerals. The drawbacks of the set as a whole are still absolutely insane though I mean the fact that you have such a slow attack chain and with certain teammates you might not be able to maintain full Agro because your attack chain fails and maybe things are a little too far away from you for mud pots to keep them tangled up...

 

The bottom line is this is a set where improvements have been needed for a long time and I for one would personally not mind seeing major changes even if we do have to break the cottage rule. I mean we are no longer under the thumb of paragon Studios... I say put it to a vote for the player base do the players want to see Stone armor changed and if so what changes would we like to see.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Voldine

[AerialAssault]

I agree fully Zolgar, Stone Armour is an absolutely archaic set. Now, I'm waiting for someone to share their experiences of how their Stone Tanker tanked Hamidon AND WEB empowered Lord Recluse, but we need to be real with ourselves, those stories are the exception and not the rule.

Numbers aside, Stone Armour just has so many out-dated design decisions. All of its defences are spread across what, four powers? Where other sets do that in two, or even just one power. With the endurance cost of all those its not a matter of if you run out of endurance, its when. And the Mez Protection being stuck to a power that forces you to run at a crawl is a bigger injustice than some defence sets not getting Knockback Protection at all (but that's for another thread). I'm sure some people find it fun, but like you Zolgar I hear more people complaining about it than praising it.

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

For me, I use my SS/Stone now more than I did on live. Even with the recharge and damage debuffs that come with granite, the IOs have made it far better than it ever was before the days of IOs. I have negated the recharge issue simply through sets, my defense sits at about 30-35% (except psi) in the major categories, my resist is capped for smash, lethal, toxic, and runs in the 60-70% on elements and energies, my regen when I decide to use rooted is around 40hp/sec, and my recovery and end usage keeps me full end no matter how hard I work SS...even with the rage and hasten drops. I triple slotted swift as I did in live and really I don't use rooted unless I am fighting 6 bosses or more. The run speed isn't the fastest...but it is as fast as using sprint with SOs.

I am not really debating the issue of stone armor all around... but Granite is far better than it ever was right now..and is still very reliable and effective in PvE. The issues of Psionic defense or resist will always remain for the granite side. Having the psi def toggle along with Granite would pretty much put the other sets to shame. 30-35% def in all but psi may not sound like much...but it is all the difference in +4 x8 mobs of most enemies.

I agree totally that the other toggles in stone need something done somehow...especially while leveling... but I don't see stone ever getting a revamp in any way. For me, Stone is very successful.. In fights against Psi dmg it of course has its weakness... but I like the weaknesses and side effects to some powers...it is what makes the game what it is. The older At like Stone and Invuln were also designed with some pvp elements in mind as well. Tanks and Brutes were hard to take down in the old PvP due to their design.... But those designs are now worthless in the new PvP.. and even stronger in the new gameplay of PvE thanks to the incarn and some of the newer sets. Granite was given the slow pace and limited movement as the offset to being pretty close to un-killable when with a team. Fair in my opinion...if you want to pursue another player in PvP.... you have to either pop out of granite at risk of being exploited... or hope your get a solid TP Foe into your mud pots. In PvE.... Granite was made to plop in the laps of an AV or hold the aggro with minimal support.....and as a super powered toggle...that same drawback with movement to keep the team mindset in place..and not having an OP player running around the map doing it all. Same reason for the Unstoppable crash.... There has to be a balance somewhere.

 As it stands, I love my SS/Stone...even through the double -80% Def rage crashes I have zero zero issues running it. I run around in Granite without rooted at a decent run pace..The powers from stone that weren't taken..I am able to carry 2 travel powers.... I am not one who can complain about Stone Armor set overall. I still consider it one of the better sets endgame. I can agree however with the other pre-granite abilities.... They are pretty bad...

[Galaxy Brain]

PvP and PvE can be tweaked individually of each other. 

For PvE gameplay tho, the same build setting on a set without the drawbacks would still make you nigh unkillable without having unfun drawbacks, instead you enjoy the bonuses to recharge and damage. 

[Brutal Justice]

I am fine with the -run speed and maybe the -recharge. The -damage really doesn’t make sense though.  If anything, I would rather keep the -recharge and have +damage.  Thematically that makes more sense to me than the -damage penalty just for the sake of some archaic balance ideas.  I turn into a giant rock monster and NOW I hit softer?   I don’t think so.  

 

Pre granite I just toggle rooted on while running into a mob.  It’s active for the alpha strike.  Then once the boss is down, or the mezzing npc, I just turn it off and it’s ready to cycle back on by the next mob.  It’s a bit like playing a regen toon.  You just have to actively manage your powers.  I enjoy regen so I also enjoy the management of early stone.  

 

I like that stone plays a bit differently from other sets.  I like that it requires a different build plan even with IO’s.  Building less for survival and more for run speed and other things adds spice to the game.  Taking teleport instead of super jump for the 50th time adds spice.  If we want to help stone armor just replace the damage penalty with a damage boost.  In the current game, and thematically, this penalty is absolutely unnecessary and needs to go.  

[Galaxy Brain]

I do think a problem with the set though is that it is so drastically different in how it wants you to swap toggles, but the drawbacks for which toggles need to be on more often + how granite invalidates half the set makes it just janky.

[Williwaw]

I had a Stone/Stone Tanker back on live, and ... I got him to 50, but I didn't enjoy it much.  Usually I just left the basic toggles running (S/L Defense covers a lot of attacks, really), and only turned on others if the enemies I was currently fighting required it (particularly Endurance-drainers), and rarely used Granite at all (because I hated all the penalties).

Conceptually, I love it, but it was a set made for a very different game than the one we have now (or even the one we had at shutdown).

[Hyperstrike]

The main problem with Stone is that you get more or less ultimate toughness.

The problem is, the modern incarnation of the game is relatively speedy.
Even optimized out, Stone Armor is just too slow to keep up with this game pace.

[Zolgar]

You know, everyone keeps talking about Granite, how tough stone is when you get Granite...

Let's pretend that Granite is perfectly fine as is (it's not, but lets pretend that)- Leveling Stone to get to Granite is a painful experience. Stone armor, pre-Granite, is one of the worst armor sets in the game, if not the worst. It's toggles provide less benefit than comparable sets (check the numbers for Ice armor and Stone armor individual powers, you will find that not only do the toggles in Ice offer more than just +def, they also offer more def than Stone's comparable toggles). It's mez protection hobbles you in exchange for a pathetic amount of regen. It has rather significant endurance costs, but no means of recovering endurance.

THIS is my problem. Granite is not my problem. My problem is the fact that when leveling Stone Armor you are at a significant disadvantage to pretty much any other armor set in the game.

Stone armor, on a whole, is a heavily outdated set that doesn't hold up to the current state of the game, even with Granite, but with Granite it's passable. It should at least be brought up to be passable before Granite, too.

[Replacement]

So there are about 3 million design flaws with Stone Armor, but let's talk about 2 of them specifically:

• The capstone is exclusive to the rest of the set
• 8 powers kinda suck

To the first point - I really do not like the design dynamic of "respec later on into something awesome."  And I really really don't like "ignore my cool costume and swap out my character model." 

 

To the second point - lots of armor sets have t9 powers that are super meh, just because they're "overkill."  Why is it that when we talk Stone Armor, suddenly the other 8 powers are expected to bow down in service of the one?  Doesn't really make sense to count it against the set's power budget differently than other sets are treated.

Honestly, this is the biggest set where I would break the cottage rule.  I'd combine some armors to make way for an included teleport (earth glide).

 

Granite is its own conversation - it shouldn't be designed around a respec, and a set shouldn't be just one power.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Replacement
Spacing

[Zolgar]

Naw, 6 powers kinda suck.
Mudpots and Earths Embrace are decent powers. 🙂 

[Golden Azrael]

I liked it.  But it wasn't perfect.

Perhaps some alt looks for it.  eg. the blue crystal look from the assault stone sets would be nice.  Rather than being covered in brown cookie dough.

And the 'Tree Root' regen' power that makes a stone tanker so.....slooooow?

Those are the two things I looked at.  And granite form move in a glacial way.

Apart from those two things.

I enjoyed mine.
 

Azrael.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

I liked it.  But it wasn't perfect.

Perhaps some alt looks for it.  eg. the blue crystal look from the assault stone sets would be nice.  Rather than being covered in brown cookie dough.

And the 'Tree Root' regen' power that makes a stone tanker so.....slooooow?

Those are the two things I looked at.  And granite form move in a glacial way.

Apart from those two things.

I enjoyed mine.
 

Azrael.

Ok, so outside of granite how did you like it?

[Sura]

I'm a bit confused about the OP: is the comparison with Ice all pre-Granite?  I feel like it is.  The vast majority of a character's life is going to be spent post-granite right?  How does Stone compare with other sets at 35 or 40 or 50?  That's a legit question, I have no idea other than the impression that it's very good.  I understand the concern about the early levels, and I'd certainly back any changes, but if Stone is fine (or better) once it gets to 32 or 34 or whatever, and there are Armor sets that underperform all the time, I'd rather see the full life underperformers prioritized. 

At least Stone Tanks get something significant and (hopefully) exciting at 32 for their T9.  Ice Tanks get Hibernate.  🙂

[Zolgar]

Sura, my point was that Stone Armor at bare minimum needs a buff without Granite for two reasons:

One: Granite, at least with the debuffs it includes, should not have to be an "on all the time" power for the set to not suck.

Two, as I have said like 3 times already: A power set shouldn't be horrible to play until the capstone power because "the capstone is so good." As it stands right now, the 1-32/38 journey on a Stone Armor character is basically a tax on getting Granite and being able to do what a tank/brute is supposed to be able to do from the start (and most, if not all, other armor sets can do from the start).

 

This is why I am disregarding Granite for the purpose of the numeric comparisons, because I am trying to get Stone Armor buffed to the point that it plays fine while leveling, and a Stone Armor character can build to not live in Granite at all times, without seriously weakening themselves.

[Brutal Justice]

After looking at your numbers comparison between ice ant stone, I have a couple issues to address.   I noticed you added combat jumping for ice, I know you can’t run combat jumping with rooted but still it looks like you have 4% more positional defense  for ice, likely from combat jumping.  That is part of your disparity in defense numbers.  

 

Also, even with only one target for energy absorption, that is a defense number you reach after eating the alpha.  I don’t have access to the actual numbers but I would guess the raw numbers for the two sets are very similar in terms of def per toggle.   

 

The fire and ice resistance difference is fairly marginal considering not many ice attacks are pure cold damage with no lethal component to get picked up by the s/l defense.  

 

If rooted didn’t cause -movement and combat jumping to detoggle, I feel it would be a great power.  People discount +regen too quickly, especially paired with earth’s embrace.  Rooted also stacks mez protection with granite.  You can stack the click mez protection but that’s not quite the equivalent.

 

 I propose taking your lvl 15 ice tank into the Positron tf and fighting ruin mages, and then doing the same with your lvl 15 stone.  Teams being equal I think I would put my money on the stone tank.  It would more or less be a value test between rooted’s +regen and chilling embrace.

 

Even at lvl 50 I see these two sets, ice and stone, as more or less equivalent.  That’s without the t9’s.  Factor in the tier nine and ice can take a seat in terms of durability.  Most brutes or tanks will get shredded by heavy early level psi damage, that’s a mob issue red side, not a powerset issue.

 

Granite also only turns off 4 powers, 5/9 still have value during granite.  Numbers wise it looks to me like you’re supposed to play stone armor outside of granite and toggle into granite when stuff hits the fan.  

 

Players just see granite and it’s numbers and want to be perma granite.  If you respec out of your other armors and can’t keep up with a team, that’s your build issues.  If a team is moving so fast you can’t keep up then you don’t even need granite, use your other 3-4 armors.  Detoggle rooted after a couple seconds in a mob and retoggle while running into the next alpha.  

 

With IO’s, stone armor has never been better.  You don’t lose your set bonuses when you toggle on granite.  Players just need to break the mentality of getting granite and respecing out of the rest of their build, it’s unnecessary.  Use granite like any other tier 9 and you’ll only find rooted needs active management, as opposed to set and forget.

 

 Without granite it may not be the tippy top of all tanks when balanced on SO’s, but it’s highly capable. Granite is there for those times when you NEED to be that tippy top tank, not for the mundane every day mob beat down, but when the need arises, stone steps up while the others take notes.

 

Just remove the -damage from granite, it’s unnecessary these days and thematically incorrect!

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Mr.Sinister
Edited for wall of text issues

[Zolgar]

Without Energy Absorption and Combat Jumping active, Cold will have close to the same defense numbers as Stone, though slightly better..

Which doesn't address:
Rooted being literal garbage in teams because you cannot actually use it in a team because you can't keep up with your party and then you get mezed as you approach combat.
Ice's Energy Absorption ticking after the Alpha, bringing your defense numbers way up.
Ice having lower endurance costs across the board.
Ice debuffing your enemies recharge speed and damage.
Ice being able to refill their end bar every 30 seconds.
Ice can take a power for more defense, while Stone has to take Teleport to have a chance at being able to position in combat.
Ice can actually move.

I chose Ice because Ice and Stone are extremely similar sets, and Ice is infinitely better than Stone. The only thing Pre-Granite Stone has going for it over Ice, is Psi defense, and regenerating about 15 more hp/second, which when you consider all of the benefits Ice has over stone... doesn't really add up to much.

As someone who has played Stone Armor to 50 multiple times, I can assure you, there is a REASON that basically everyone who makes a Stoner goes full time Granite as soon as they can.

[Brutal Justice]

Ice gets energy absorption at level 26, 6 whole levels before granite.  Energy absorption is the pinnacle of ice and might as well be its tier 9.  Before that it suffers just as much end issues as stone armor.  

 

How many npc’s have mezzing powers in each mob?   After the 1 or 2 are dead in a mob you can turn rooted off.  You’re probably one of those tanks that stays until every last single minion is dead.  You should be a second or two ahead of your team so they don’t have to wait for you at the next group.  They just jump right in.  Rooted recharges in 4 seconds. Turn it off 1 second before you leave the current group and, without breaking stride, 1 second before the alpha of the next group.  You have 3 seconds in between group aggro.  That’s easily done.  It requires a different play style. Different play styles are a good thing.  Homogenization is not.  

 

Mobility is not that big of an issue in a fight.  Run into the highest threat area and taunt the area outside of that to bring them in.  If you’re there 1 second before your team, as you should be, then the group will have a chance to callapse on you.  Tanks don’t generally need the mobility of the dps or support in a fight.   

 

You point out end management and slows with -dam.  That’s a special component of ice.  Stone can’t apply fear and -to hit like dark, or stun.  It can’t burn like fire, +recharge like electric.  But invulnerability can’t do any of those things either, does that make it worse than ice?  But you won’t let stone have more psi defense, and if things get real bad, granite?  Each set has strengths and weaknesses.  You’re just not letting stone have its strengths.

 

Maybe running around cycling your 5 other toggles, as needed, in stone armor makes you a bit more of a brick than a super tank.  When things get real though, stone gets real.  Instead of hiding in a block of ice while your team handles the ouchies.  

 

Use granite as an active/reactive power, not a passive.   It’s like willpower vs regen in play style.  Passive vs reactive.  Granite is a corner stone, not THE stone.   Like energy absorption, invincibility, dark regen, etc.   Remove those and those sets are not that good.

 

Talking numbers, ice and stone are pretty equal.  Talking uniques, without letting stone have its uniques, obviously ice would be better.  

 

It’s a playstyle and mindset regarding granite that needs addressed.  Players just see a granite with a pocket kin running around and think that’s THE only way, and anything less is trash.  

[Zolgar]

"The set is fine, you just don't know how to play it. LOL"

Multiple 50 stoners as both brute and tank, built to survive outside of granite.. NAW, I don't know how to play the set.

[Brutal Justice]

Why would you take multiples to 50 built to survive OUTSIDE of granite if you hate it so much.  

 

“Absolute garbage for 31/37 levels”

”I hate it more every time I play it”

”I am HATING leveling it right now”. 

 

I feel I addressed your comparisons to ice.   Having multiple lvl 50’s doesn’t mean a whole lot.  In this game anybody can fall down a flight of stairs and be lvl 50 before they hit the bottom.  I can really only go off of what you say about playing it.  Which is can’t this, can’t that.  I addressed those can nots with solutions available right now.  

 

I am sure you have many extremely capable toons built up with IO’s.  I wasn’t challenging your skill, more so challenging your playstyle.  There is a difference between player skill and build skill though.  A person can make an awesome build, and of course that toon will play awesome.  But a skilled player can squeak out performance with less.   When player skill can’t squeak, tanking ghost widow or recluse for example, granite picks up the slack.  

 

Hating it it so much and calling it trash outside of granite, why wouldn’t I assume you hit granite level and respec out of everything?   Just because you said you don’t?   Why would the opinion of somebody who does something multiple times, all while hating it so much, carry any weight.  What’s that definition of insanity?  Something something is the definition of insanity?  Nailed it!  

 

Who is it, Jack Nomind, who makes the no set builds?   That’s what I’m talking about.  That’s a man after my own heart right there.  Old school knowledge passed on.  Anybody who has read even small amounts on the forums can build a soft capped anything with IO’s.   If you want to homogenize everything just soft cap everything.  

 

The problem with stone armor is, even soft capped it still requires different play.  Or it breaks your softcap build mold and requires different sets and goals to play like all the other soft capped builds.  If you want all sets to play the same then stay away from the sets that require something different.  Let people who don’t want all their toons to play the same enjoy those sets.

 

Trick Shooter has been rallying for trick arrow for what, over a decade?   You know why his opinion is important?  Because he enjoys the set, doesn’t want it to change, and instead sees minor tweaks that it could use without changing what it does or how it plays .  If he hated it so much and wanted it changed, then his words too, would be lost in the chum bucket of Internet forums  

 

Learn to play, LOL.  Remove the -damage from granite.  And while we are at it, NERF REGEN!

[OldSchool SC Fight Club]

No issues with my Stone... It does what I want...and most importantly....it does what I expect it to.

[Zolgar]

I love stone armor, but I am critical of it's failings. I don't want it to lose its flavor. I know how to play the set. I just can't stand playing it in its present state anymore, the meta of the game has changed in the past 10 years, and Stone doesn't fit in to it. If you look at my suggestions, aside from my spitball of making Granite better the more of the other armor toggles you had, the closest to a "flavor change" I posed was making it so Rooted doesn't completely hobble you. Which wasn't as bad 10 years ago, today teams are constantly moving nonstop- "but drop rooted", Sure, I do that. Miss time things even slightly when you're facing saaay Circle of Thorns (Positron TF anyone), and you get mezed, if you're beating the party to the next spawn... you might even get killed for it. No other armor set in the game has to constantly on/off its mez protection like that, even sets with clicky mez protection instead of toggles basically never have to worry about it again past 22 because 3 SOs/25 IOs makes it perma.

The prevalence of Mez powers in the game makes having to flicker your mez protection power a huge weakness to the set.

The weaknesses would be one thing if Stone was amazing, but it's not. It is below average. The only sets that are less survivable than Stone in the 1-31/37 run? Dark, if you don't play it right. Fire, because fire is an aggressive set that ascribes to the belief of "they can't kill me if they're dead". And maybe Regen (I lack enough experience with Regen to make an actual judgement on this set). Dark gets some killer survival tricks up its sleeves in form of debuffs and mez. Fire, as I expressed, adds a hell of a lot of damage output (and has a strong, fast recharging self heal).

I'll say again:
If we want Stone Armor to be a set that requires skill to play, first of all, there needs to be more skill involved than "juggle Rooted" (because there isn't right now. It's "know what damage you're facing, put the appropriate armors up, and juggle rooted."), and once we have that in place, Stone Armor needs to actually be a strong set when played right. Currently, if you play it 100% optimally prior to Granite, you're still pretty close to the bottom of the pack in terms of how much punishment an armor set can take.

If we want to go that route, then what we should do is this:
Buff Rock Armor to bring it on par with other sets comparable powers. (I still like the idea of giving it smashing/lethal resist, much like Shield's first power)
Make Rooted provide more regen, because right now what it offers is not really enough to contribute to survival in any kind of swarm environment.
Make Brimstone Armor, Crystal Armor, and Minerals mutually exclusive, allow them to be active with Granite (but have Granite suppress their primary effects, probably), and make each power not only provide it's core benefit, but apply benefits to Granite, Stone Skin, and Mud Pots while active.

Give it tricks, make it so that if you play it right it's at least in the top half of the armor sets, without relying on Granite.

And, as I have said half a dozen times already:
Even if we leave Granite completely alone because it's "fine as is", the rest of the set needs a buff to bring it up to a reasonable level of durability while leveling.

I challenge you to go level up a stone tanker to 32 without any power leveling, running in PUGs, using exclusively basic IOs (or SOs, your choice).
Then, do the same, with another comparable tanker set, using the same secondary.

If after you do that, you still think Stone Armor is fine as is, I will know that you're just a masochist 😛