Pylon Damage Thread

[SomeGuy]

EM/FA Brute better DPS than EM/ElA brute. EM/ElA brute sturdy. EM/FA brute squishy. Sorry, I have ADHD and tend to brain vomit.

[SomeGuy]

I finally ran a test I've been putting off a while. So, I simulated having a full stack of Soul Drain (x10) would be like DPS wise. Basically, would eat three 50% DMG (total of 150%) then punch a pylon.

 

Scrapper     DM/BIO     1:29 (10x Soul Drain/Degen/Zapp) 1:35 (10x Soul Drain/Reactive/Zapp)

 

I'd get the time and add 7 seconds (to compensate for not having to cast soul drain).

 

What I learned? You need to maximize Soul Drain (full 10x stack every time) to get the ST DPS performance of a lot of different sets with DM. This isn't even accounting for it's very poor AOE performance. Soul Drain definitely needs to be Auto-Hit, and give a minimum of 1x Stack if your target dies right before it goes off.

 

 

[nihilii]

On 10/7/2021 at 6:07 PM, Sovera said:

It's pretty interesting how the uber damage EM was very much in tune with oldie Claws despite all the praise EM collect.

 

To be fair, we run exactly in the situation you often mention re: -RES procs. Claws loads up with them, and the Pylon fight is an ideal environment for Claws where lethal damage isn't resisted, -RES works at full power, and the target is immobile for optimal Follow Up stacking.

EM shines in real gameplay as it deals most of its damage without -RES, largely in energy type, and does high burst, highly conductive to fast-paced environments.

IMHO those roughly even Pylon times translate to a ~30% performance difference in real gameplay (ST, obviously. Claws is lovely for AOE). Probably one of the most extreme cases.

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, nihilii said:

 

To be fair, we run exactly in the situation you often mention re: -RES procs. Claws loads up with them, and the Pylon fight is an ideal environment for Claws where lethal damage isn't resisted, -RES works at full power, and the target is immobile for optimal Follow Up stacking.

EM shines in real gameplay as it deals most of its damage without -RES, largely in energy type, and does high burst, highly conductive to fast-paced environments.

IMHO those roughly even Pylon times translate to a ~30% performance difference in real gameplay (ST, obviously. Claws is lovely for AOE). Probably one of the most extreme cases.

 

You make a good point. I'm so used to my own testing I just looked at the numbers at face value.

[SomeGuy]

10 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

To be fair, we run exactly in the situation you often mention re: -RES procs. Claws loads up with them, and the Pylon fight is an ideal environment for Claws where lethal damage isn't resisted, -RES works at full power, and the target is immobile for optimal Follow Up stacking.

EM shines in real gameplay as it deals most of its damage without -RES, largely in energy type, and does high burst, highly conductive to fast-paced environments.

IMHO those roughly even Pylon times translate to a ~30% performance difference in real gameplay (ST, obviously. Claws is lovely for AOE). Probably one of the most extreme cases.

I'm biased towards Claws AND EM. Claws was my first 50 hero and EM was my first 50 villain. It was honestly the EM changes that brought me back. The thing is, as easily as EM can transition to ST DPS in gameplay away from pylons, so can Claws (might be easier, I just stop using Spin and go to Slash). And Claws probably has the best AOE of any scrapper primary. I've been tempted to do the Trapdoor run with the claws/bio AND em/bio, but I really am not motivated to learn to get efficient with that. EM's AOE has definitely been improved, but I suspect not enough to compete with Claws in that run. Claws would get two good damage ranged DPS ST attacks (Zapp and Focus) where EM would only get one (Zapp). That's pretty big for runners. I've done SL farms with both, and even though it wasn't numerically measured, I definitely could tell Claws was a lot faster. My claws/bio uses both -RES procs. Achilles in slash and fury in GC. The em/bio only has the fury in GC. If bone smasher, or TF, could take achilles that would be pretty ridiculous...

 

What I'm trying to say is, just play what you like. EM is chonky with it's fist. Claws is fast stab stab stab.

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

I'm biased towards Claws AND EM. Claws was my first 50 hero and EM was my first 50 villain. It was honestly the EM changes that brought me back. The thing is, as easily as EM can transition to ST DPS in gameplay away from pylons, so can Claws (might be easier, I just stop using Spin and go to Slash). And Claws probably has the best AOE of any scrapper primary.

 

I have three claws chains. Single target is the same for the scrapper, brute and tanker: Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat.

Scrapper AoE is Followup, Spin, Shockwave, repeat while brute/tanker AoE is Followup, Focus, Spin, Shockwave, repeat.

 

For me, even though the ST damage is less with claws than it is with nrg, claws wins for two reasons:

Claws spends FAR less time corpse blasting and it remains dead sexier by far.

[SomeGuy]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 

Claws spends FAR less time corpse blasting

 

 

OMG. I totally forgot about this. This is absolutely a gulf size difference between the two. I love both. And sometimes corpse blasting THAT hard with EM feels soooooo good, but it is definitely a big big thing. Like, with Claws, I can do a FU to finish off a thing and immediately focus at ranged to something. With EM, the only way for me not to corpse blast astronomically is to bone smasher spam. Cause Zapp, TF, and ET hit like a dump truck full of smaller dump trucks.

[Tsuko]

12 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

To be fair, we run exactly in the situation you often mention re: -RES procs. Claws loads up with them, and the Pylon fight is an ideal environment for Claws where lethal damage isn't resisted, -RES works at full power, and the target is immobile for optimal Follow Up stacking.

EM shines in real gameplay as it deals most of its damage without -RES, largely in energy type, and does high burst, highly conductive to fast-paced environments.

IMHO those roughly even Pylon times translate to a ~30% performance difference in real gameplay (ST, obviously. Claws is lovely for AOE). Probably one of the most extreme cases.

 

That's why i bet all my mélée on ice 🙂

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I have three claws chains. Single target is the same for the scrapper, brute and tanker: Followup, Focus, Slash, repeat.

Scrapper AoE is Followup, Spin, Shockwave, repeat while brute/tanker AoE is Followup, Focus, Spin, Shockwave, repeat.

 

For me, even though the ST damage is less with claws than it is with nrg, claws wins for two reasons:

Claws spends FAR less time corpse blasting and it remains dead sexier by far.

 

I was leveling an EM brute but I gave myself a break since the damage was being definitely hindered by me being too shy to use TF. If it was not at full HP I'd rather not use it so there was more time with Energy Punch and Bonesmasher in use than TF outside of finding a lieut or picking out the initial bosses.

 

But just for the heck of it I'll keep leveling it again. I know on the Tanker it was a bit better without Gloom (something like 3:20 without -res, so not a huge improvement on things like Claws or MA without -res who do it in 4 minutes) but between being forced to take Barrage and the awkward recharge of TF (and me not wanting to use slow ET (TF is quite enough on slowness, thank you very much)) maybe I could have improved it further.

 

Gloom just messes up anything it touches though. The time went down to 2:30 with it so it's a powerhouse all on its own.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

Gloom just messes up anything it touches though. The time went down to 2:30 with it so it's a powerhouse all on its own.

 

I've considered adding gloom to my claws users but I just don't know if I can give up conserve power and phys perf for it.

[SomeGuy]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I've considered adding gloom to my claws users but I just don't know if I can give up conserve power and phys perf for it.

 

 

I imagine it would just be swapping Slash every other chain with it if so? I haven't done a Claws brute in forever. I never knew why the animation time for Follow-Up was increased so much for it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

29 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

I imagine it would just be swapping Slash every other chain with it if so? I haven't done a Claws brute in forever. I never knew why the animation time for Follow-Up was increased so much for it.

 

?

 

FU, Focus and Slash are unchanged as far as I know between the ATs. Spin and SW certainly have longer recharge times...

 

Just checked. .83 cast on all three.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[SomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

?

 

FU, Focus and Slash are unchanged as far as I know between the ATs. Spin and SW certainly have longer recharge times...

 

Just checked. .83 cast on all three.

 

 

Man, I coulda swore it was different on a Brute. I had a claws/ele brute (before it was cool, yo!).

[Bill Z Bubba]

Nrg/Bio/Soul Scrapper
ET(slow)-TF-ET(fast)-MB-BS-repeat
T4 Musc, T4 Degen, T4 Assault (clicked) Edit: All Core side.

3 runs average 1min 21secs

Edited October 11, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Pzn]

Sonic/Fire/Ninja Sentinel with T3 Musc, T3 Degen, T4 assault radial, T4 ageless core

 

Attack chain is Burn>Screech>Sting of the wasp>Lotus Drops>Screech>Sting of the wasp

 

Averaging 1:35 with hybrid on and 1:50 without

 

There is a 1-2 second gap on lotus drops recharging which is when I use either t1 for opportunity, amplify, or dreadful wail to fill.  I cheated with base buffs for 20% more recharge to sustain my attack chain, but the attack chain is still doable without it if you built for it.  My build is only at around 80% global recharge because I went for some defense bonuses and wanted certain pool powers.

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Ninja Tool Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shriek -- SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(3), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(9)
Level 2: Molten Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(17), Rct-ResDam%(17), Ksm-ToHit+(19)
Level 6: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 8: Teleport Target -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 10: Healing Flames -- Prv-Heal/EndRdx(A), Prv-Heal(19), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(23), Prv-Absorb%(23)
Level 12: Temperature Protection -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(25), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 18: Teleport -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 20: Consume -- Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Obl-Dmg(29), Obl-Acc/Rchg(29), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Obl-%Dam(31)
Level 22: Fold Space -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- AbsAmz-Stun(A), AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(33), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(33), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(33), AbsAmz-EndRdx/Stun(34)
Level 26: Screech -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(34), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Rchg(36), GldJvl-Dam%(36)
Level 28: Burn -- Obl-Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Dam%(37), Obl-%Dam(37), Erd-%Dam(37), Arm-Dam%(39), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(39)
Level 30: Amplify -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Dreadful Wail -- Obl-%Dam(A), Obl-Dmg(40), Obl-Acc/Rchg(40), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 35: Sting of the Wasp -- Mk'Bit-Dam%(A), GldStr-%Dam(43), TchofDth-Dam%(43), TchofLadG-%Dam(43), Hct-Dam%(45), ShlBrk-%Dam(45)
Level 38: Cauterizing Blaze -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A)
Level 41: The Lotus Drops -- ShlBrk-%Dam(A), Obl-%Dam(45), Erd-%Dam(46), ScrDrv-Dam%(46), TchofLadG-%Dam(46), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 44: Rise of the Phoenix -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(48), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Arm-Acc/Rchg(50), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 47: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Acc/Rchg(13), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(13)
Level 1: Opportunity
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------



 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Pzn

[DarknessEternal]

5 hours ago, Pzn said:

Sonic/Fire/Ninja Sentinel with T3 Musc, T3 Degen, T4 assault radial, T4 ageless core

 

Attack chain is Burn>Screech>Sting of the wasp>Lotus Drops>Screech>Sting of the wasp

 

 

Isn't Sentinel Burn pretty pointless on anything that isn't a Pylon?

[Pzn]

20 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Isn't Sentinel Burn pretty pointless on anything that isn't a Pylon?

It works really well.  Just like running it on a blaster, fire armor scrapper or anything else without taunt.  The procs and initial damage all hit immediately and the DoT patch is only a small portion.  Most things die instantly from it.  I have less runners than on scrappers and blasters that use it since I don't have a damage aura.  I thought it would be awful but when I solo'd a few AVs/GMs they barely ran.

 

Fold space is there in case things are too spread out or a bad drop causes mobs to scatter.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Pzn

[SomeGuy]

So, Degen definitely wasn't a DPS bump on the pylon for my Rad/Bio proc build. I did practice enough that I got a new and improved average when I swapped back to reactive. But holy god, doing a proc-build for rad/bio is a super end drain. I was having to use T4 Ageless, a recovery serum, and popping a +50 blue at the last 1/5 of the pylon HP bar. The new average was 90 seconds (1:30) but man that comes with a lot of asterisks.

 

Also, @Pzn. Whoah. Wasn't expecting a good Sentinel time. *tips fedora*. If you keep at it after you get T4 Muscle, that time with hybrid off/on is gonna drop pretty noticeably. Thought about taking Scream to fill that gap and get some more -RES?

Edited October 12, 2021 by SomeGuy

[Pzn]

6 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Thought about taking Scream to fill that gap and get some more -RES?

Definitely thought about it.  It's a nice chance to use offensive opportunity or dreadful wail which serves the same purpose since the -res on them lasts longer than scream.  Opportunity is ready to be refreshed every 3rd completed chain so it works out nicely rotating it in with wail and amplify.
 

A lot of it is consideration for normal play.  I'm never going to notice that small of a gap when I'm moving around or getting recharge buffs.  I think someone could take the idea and get better times by building purely for recharge.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Pzn said:

I think someone could take the idea and get better times by building purely for recharge.

 

I really dig seeing some solid Sent times in here as well. My fire/bio Sent sits right at the 3 min mark with my claws/sr scrapper, so awesome job there!

[SomeGuy]

7 hours ago, Pzn said:

Definitely thought about it.  It's a nice chance to use offensive opportunity or dreadful wail which serves the same purpose since the -res on them lasts longer than scream.  Opportunity is ready to be refreshed every 3rd completed chain so it works out nicely rotating it in with wail and amplify.
 

A lot of it is consideration for normal play.  I'm never going to notice that small of a gap when I'm moving around or getting recharge buffs.  I think someone could take the idea and get better times by building purely for recharge.

I used to play a sonic/cold defender a LOT. And my rotation was shout/scream/shout/screech repeat. Sonic doesn't get enough cred, especially on teams.

[SomeGuy]

Kinetic Melee sucks. Regen is awesome

 

All my times are an average unless otherwise noted. This is not a best run.

 

Scrapper     KM/BIO/ZAPP     95s (1:35)

 

I made this out of spite because of the amount of people proclaiming KM is bad here. And I turn around and see people saying regen is great. Either way, I haven't figured out how to maximize this combo. Power Siphon is weird and awesome at the same time. I originally made a KM/FA scrapper when Going Rogue went live. The damage was pretty wild. I just abandoned the set due to runners. I remember solo-ing AVs in the Maria Jenkins arc with the dude without inspiration spamming.

 

CS-Zapp-SB-QS-BB-SB for the chain.

[Sovera]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:22 PM, SomeGuy said:

I've been busy. All these times are an average of 10+ runs. Hybrid is NOT turned on. No Lore is used. T4 Muscle and Ageless.

 

Scrapper     EM/BIO           1:19 (Degen/Zapp)

 

 

Somesie, can I tempt you into a run with Evolving Armor turned off? Just to compare the numbers.

 

And could I tempt you into sharing the EM/FA Br00t build? By the numbers I'm assuming Gloom is involved.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Sovera

[SomeGuy]

9 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Somesie, can I tempt you into a run with Evolving Armor turned off? Just to compare the numbers.

 

And could I tempt you into sharing the EM/FA Br00t build? By the numbers I'm assuming Gloom is involved.

 

 

lol Yeah, the Brute definitely uses Gloom in the rotation. It's actually a very similar rotation to a SS/FA/Gloom Brute.

 

TF-ET-Burn-Gloom

 

Gloom doesn't get used every rotation. If Build Up gets used then Gloom is the attack not used in the rotation. I want to get back to using those big three ASAP. I haven't ran a Bone Smasher run, but I don't imagine it being to much slower. *edit* I just did a run with Bonesmasher instead of Gloom. The time was the same. So, I'm sure with averages it would be higher, but I'm not that concerned with it.

 

Why the curiosity of a run without Evolving Armor?

Edited October 13, 2021 by SomeGuy

[Bill Z Bubba]

29 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

Why the curiosity of a run without Evolving Armor?

 

I believe it's because Sovera developed some kind of animosity towards -resistance. It worries me. 🙂