Earth/Storm build?

[Chelsea Rorec]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I only see 10 seconds of log. Quicksand I believe last for 45 seconds.

after i removed the guff that was all the activity of quicksand.

plus it dosn't say when it ends

Edited September 7, 2019 by Chelsea Rorec

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

after i removed the guff that was all the activity of quicksand.

Ok, sounds good. So you collected 30 samples here. There were 5 opportunities for each of 5 Crey in your first test, and 5 opportunities for the Tank Smasher. Of these 30 opportunities, you got  4 procs (13.33%). This falls right in line with expected, as the formula for pseudopets with a 25 foot radius would have a 15.3% probability to proc. Now, I won't make conclusions with a small sample size, but so far it looks like everything is working like normal.

[Chelsea Rorec]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Ok, sounds good. So you collected 30 samples here. There were 5 opportunities for each of 5 Crey in your first test, and 5 opportunities for the Tank Smasher. Of these 30 opportunities, you got  4 procs (13.33%). This falls right in line with expected, as the formula for pseudopets with a 25 foot radius would have a 15.3% probability to proc. Now, I won't make conclusions with a small sample size, but so far it looks like everything is working like normal.

I'm just glad it IS working 🙂

My whole build is built around large mobs and herding so that % will increase with larger mobs sizes.

[Chelsea Rorec]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Ok, sounds good. So you collected 30 samples here. There were 5 opportunities for each of 5 Crey in your first test, and 5 opportunities for the Tank Smasher. Of these 30 opportunities, you got  4 procs (13.33%). This falls right in line with expected, as the formula for pseudopets with a 25 foot radius would have a 15.3% probability to proc. Now, I won't make conclusions with a small sample size, but so far it looks like everything is working like normal.

My next question is does the +recharge proc still work with pseudopets and does it stack ? RE: Lightning storm

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

I'm just glad it IS working 🙂

My whole build is built around large mobs and herding so that % will increase with larger mobs sizes.

The percentage won't increase, but the number of procs will increase. Think of it this way, assuming the targets don't run out of the quicksand, and the fight lasts for at least 45 seconds, then you can expect each target in the quicksand to have 5 attempts at getting hit with the proc (which has a 15% chance of hitting). The probability of missing every time on a target is 43.6%, so your probability of hitting the target at least once is 56.4%. It's not bad. It's not game breaking. 

 

For what it's worth, I use 4 procs in my Distortion Field, which lasts for 45 seconds also, but has only a 20 foot radius (so higher probability to proc). I get very good production out of it.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

My next question is does the +recharge proc still work with pseudopets and does it stack ? RE: Lightning storm

I haven't tested it, but there is a /Storm Summoning thread in the defender section that I believe has your answers. As for stacking, it won't, but it should/could refresh the duration of the +Recharge

[Chelsea Rorec]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The percentage won't increase, but the number of procs will increase. Think of it this way, assuming the targets don't run out of the quicksand, and the fight lasts for at least 45 seconds, then you can expect each target in the quicksand to have 5 attempts at getting hit with the proc (which has a 15% chance of hitting). The probability of missing every time on a target is 43.6%, so your probability of hitting the target at least once is 56.4%. It's not bad. It's not game breaking. 

 

For what it's worth, I use 4 procs in my Distortion Field, which lasts for 45 seconds also, but has only a 20 foot radius (so higher probability to proc). I get very good production out of it.

my whole game plan is use 4 powers with 12 procs and kill the mob i herded and throw in other stuff if needed.

It does work.

From what i've read +recharge proc works better in AoE powers not single target like Lightning storm.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Chelsea Rorec

[Chelsea Rorec]

And also Freezing rain is proc'ing not just at the start either.

 

 

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

my whole game plan is use 4 powers with 12 procs and kill the mob i herded and throw in other stuff if needed.

It does work.

From what i've read +recharge proc works better in AoE powers not single target like Lightning storm.

That's because you are giving the FF proc more opportunities to trigger in AoE powers. You only need it to proc once, since there is no stack. So even though there is a degrade to your probability to proc on each target due to the Area Factor of the attack, that degrade will get offset if you can hit 3 or more targets.

[Chelsea Rorec]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That's because you are giving the FF proc more opportunities to trigger in AoE powers. You only need it to proc once, since there is no stack. So even though there is a degrade to your probability to proc on each target due to the Area Factor of the attack, that degrade will get offset if you can hit 3 or more targets.

Yep that is what i figured.

[Chelsea Rorec]

On 9/6/2019 at 9:15 PM, Sir Myshkin said:

You should take a closer look at what Avilister is working towards. Your build sacrifices a ton of opportunity and doesn't have nearly the same level of damage capability. All those procs you have committed to Freezing Rain and Earthquake, as the game currently stands, are doing (basically) nothing. It's a fault of the game algorithm on rain type powers, and the patch abilities like earthquake, ice slick, and quicksand. You'd also get a lot of extra mileage out of your Storm abilities by getting a few Force Feedback +Rech procs in the build too.

 

Build higher global recharge bonuses and take your excess recharge enhancements out of your abilities and you'll get a significant increase in proc performance as well. That extra enhancement lowers your probability and negatively impacts anything with a 30/s or lower base recharge. Seismic Smash, when set up as a fully loaded Proc power, will hit for 500 points on its own. It's all about global bonuses, boosted ToHit to offset slotting limitations, and loading up on Procs. Controllers get a lot of mileage out of it.

So to clarify in my build.

Quicksand is Proc'ing twice.

Freezing rain is proc'ing ALOT.

Earth quake is also proc'ing.

Volcanic Gases is proc'ing

 

There is evidence of all of this in the combat logs posted and the tests with Bopper.

So my question is if all of the above is correct why is nobody taking advantage of all these facts except me ?

 

Quote

All those procs you have committed to Freezing Rain and Earthquake, as the game currently stands, are doing (basically) nothing.

I really hope these tests have changed your mind about what is actually going on with earth powers and you atleast think about slotting some procs in those powers because i really enjoy my build and like i've said before it's fantastic for herding and destroying large mobs.

 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

So my question is if all of the above is correct why is nobody taking advantage of all these facts except me ?

 

Because, on each activation, the chance to proc is 18% or so for Freezing Rain... which adds about 13 damage to the power, per IO. So, 3 slots into FR with damage IOs have you do 36 damage with it, on the average, per target at level 50. And another 36, 10 seconds later. I think it also does 25 damage base, so you COULD slot it up for about 40 damage with Damage/Recharge plus another 2x38 from procs. But that only puts you at 116 AoE damage.

 

Now, 116 is really NOT bad damage for a power whose main purpose is a lot of debuffing. But that's because the power does a bit of damage on its own... Earthquake doesn't have that, and can't put as many IOs, for example. So you end up with multiple AoE powers all at less than 120 damage and all with pretty long recharges. With enough of them plus your own Epic AoE attacks, you actually can manage to do some reasonable AoE damage... but it's a LOT less than other AoE damage options even when just looking at Controllers (See my Dark/Poison thread for an example). So people who are making builds for AoE damage are really not going to look at this type and level of damage, and people who are teaming aren't going to bother spending slots on relatively weak DoT damage when in a team spawns melt too fast.

 

So in the end, what you're doing works, but a min-maxer will likely look at better AoE options.

[Nightmarer]

10 minutes ago, Coyote said:

So in the end, what you're doing works,

That's what she's been trying to say all this time tbh, as far as I have read, she never claimed this to be the best option and quite frankly, your Dark/Poison thread is kinda irrelevant since this whole thread is about an earth/storm build. Are there better options with other Controller powersets? probably, same way I am sure there better AoE options with other ATs, in the end, she suggested an earth/storm build that works, as you just admitted, anything else beyond that is sort of irrelevant and sometimes seems even petty.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Nightmarer
Typos, typos everywhere

[Chelsea Rorec]

10 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Because, on each activation, the chance to proc is 18% or so for Freezing Rain... which adds about 13 damage to the power, per IO. So, 3 slots into FR with damage IOs have you do 36 damage with it, on the average, per target at level 50. And another 36, 10 seconds later. I think it also does 25 damage base, so you COULD slot it up for about 40 damage with Damage/Recharge plus another 2x38 from procs. But that only puts you at 116 AoE damage.

 

Now, 116 is really NOT bad damage for a power whose main purpose is a lot of debuffing. But that's because the power does a bit of damage on its own... Earthquake doesn't have that, and can't put as many IOs, for example. So you end up with multiple AoE powers all at less than 120 damage and all with pretty long recharges. With enough of them plus your own Epic AoE attacks, you actually can manage to do some reasonable AoE damage... but it's a LOT less than other AoE damage options even when just looking at Controllers (See my Dark/Poison thread for an example). So people who are making builds for AoE damage are really not going to look at this type and level of damage, and people who are teaming aren't going to bother spending slots on relatively weak DoT damage when in a team spawns melt too fast.

 

So in the end, what you're doing works, but a min-maxer will likely look at better AoE options.

Go back and look at the combat log because i'm pretty sure there is 1911 damage on that log from freezing rain.

[Coyote]

1 minute ago, Nightmarer said:

That's what she's been trying to say all this time tbh, as far as I have read, she never claimed this to be the best option and quite frankly, your Dark/Poison thread is kinda irrelevant since this whole thread is about an earth/storm build. Are there better options with other Controller powersets? probably, same way I am sure there betetr AoE options with other ATs, in the end, she suggested an earth/storm build that works, as yo just admitted, anything else beyond that is sort of irrelevant and sometimes seems even petty.

 

Ugh, don't be petty. I didn't say a word against her options or design. She just asked "why isn't anyone else doing this", and I answered exactly and only that question. To be honest, I didn't really examine her build so I could even have an opinion on it overall. I only answered "why would someone who knows about damage procs, NOT be using them in AoE rains when you can do AoE damage with them?". And I think my answer was pretty fair and reasonable, and explains why other people aren't doing this... but I never said that she's wrong to be doing it. I can see reasons why you might try to shoehorn a build into a role that doesn't fit it very well, if you don't like making too many alts.

 

Remember this: CoH is easy, so "a build that works", when giving advice on the forums, is a very low bar. When we're discussing builds, usually the discussion is focused towards min-maxing the builds in some way, because otherwise there are just so many "play as you would like" options. So when people suggest changes for builds, it's usually not in the context of "you need to do this to succeed", but more like "you'll do more damage (or have more defense, or whatever) if you do this, but if you are fine with your build, then that works too".

[Coyote]

4 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

Go back and look at the combat log because i'm pretty sure there is 1911 damage on that log from freezing rain.

 

Did you ever say what level those mobs were? I figured that they had to be lower level, since you're doing 200+ damage, using procs that are listed as doing 71 damage base.

[Nightmarer]

7 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Ugh, don't be petty. I didn't say a word against her options or design. She just asked "why isn't anyone else doing this", and I answered exactly and only that question. To be honest, I didn't really examine her build so I could even have an opinion on it overall. I only answered "why would someone who knows about damage procs, NOT be using them in AoE rains when you can do AoE damage with them?". And I think my answer was pretty fair and reasonable, and explains why other people aren't doing this... but I never said that she's wrong to be doing it. I can see reasons why you might try to shoehorn a build into a role that doesn't fit it very well, if you don't like making too many alts.

 

Remember this: CoH is easy, so "a build that works", when giving advice on the forums, is a very low bar. When we're discussing builds, usually the discussion is focused towards min-maxing the builds in some way, because otherwise there are just so many "play as you would like" options. So when people suggest changes for builds, it's usually not in the context of "you need to do this to succeed", but more like "you'll do more damage (or have more defense, or whatever) if you do this, but if you are fine with your build, then that works too".

So, now you are not only patronizing but also admitting you could not be arsed to check her build before contradicting her over and over again. Also, you are assuming that, uaual advice is a low bar and the discussions on a build are always about min/maxing when all OP asked for was a solid build. This looks to me like you are getting too much assumptions from your own rear and flag them around as if they were some sort of an absolute truth. And to top it  someone who took the name of a player who sadly passed away is calling me petty. I'd better stop derailing this thread more than I have already, have it your way dude.

[Chelsea Rorec]

3 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Did you ever say what level those mobs were? I figured that they had to be lower level, since you're doing 200+ damage, using procs that are listed as doing 71 damage base.

I think thats irrelevant what is relevent is they are proc'ing more than once so are doing more damage than you are stating.

Slotting it for procs get you more damage than slotting for damage.

Even mids agrees with me (25 dmg with dam mods Vs 347dam with procs) and this is IF it procs once which it isn't. It's proc'ing TWICE.

 

If this dosn't satisfy i will GLADLY supply more logs to show you what is REALLY going on.

[Chelsea Rorec]

33 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

I think thats irrelevant what is relevent is they are proc'ing more than once so are doing more damage than you are stating.

Slotting it for procs get you more damage than slotting for damage.

Even mids agrees with me (25 dmg with dam mods Vs 347dam with procs) and this is IF it procs once which it isn't. It's proc'ing TWICE.

 

If this dosn't satisfy i will GLADLY supply more logs to show you what is REALLY going on.

Also don't forget the -res which makes the procs do more damage.

I just had a proc damage for 91.

That's a bit more than your stated 71.

[Chelsea Rorec]

I mean lets face it when i place all my powers (quicksand,earth quake,volcanic gases,freezing rain) i have 12 procs firing killing stuff and that's even before i've touched the storm powers or any other powers.

I can throw in stalagmites which is 1 more proc or stone cages which is 3 more (yes i've seen procs firing on cages).

All on powers that don't really do a lot of damage themselves.

most stuff dies but sometimes you have stubbon bosses which requires other storm powers or seismic smash.

 

Seems to me Coyote that you are fixed on your idea of a earth/storm and are really close minded to new idea's and try and beat down anyone who brings something new to the table but thats how progress is made.

Someone standing up and saying "hey have you tried this" and bringing proof to the ney sayers.

I'll bring more logs or better still come with me on a mission and see for yourself.

[Coyote]

Um. I state damage at level 50, against +0 mobs, because that's a simple and clear way to compare damage across powers.

You are doing 91 instead of 71, but that's because of -Res, not because of the base damage being 91... that -Res improves the base damage of Freezing Rain, also. But it also improves the damage of Fissure, as an example. Or Stone Cages. Since all of your sources of damage are improved by -Res in the same fashion, if we're trying to figure out what is the best source of AoE damage, then it makes sense to use base damage for comparisons.

 

I am quite a fan of using proc IOs on Controllers to do more damage. I've even put up some posts on the topic. I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone trying new ideas and builds. It actually seems to me that you are fixed on your idea of an earth/storm and are really close minded to having a mathematical analysis of DPS, and try to beat down anyone who tries to analyze numbers, but that's how damage is accurately measured.

 

I actually think that if I were playing Earth/Storm (and I did on Live), and interested in soloing with AoE ability, I would be squeezing procs into Freezing Rain and Earthquake, also. But I wouldn't do it without analyzing the numbers, and ending up saying "This is a pretty poor return on the IOs, but there really is nowhere else to add AoE damage to the build".

[Chelsea Rorec]

26 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Um. I state damage at level 50, against +0 mobs, because that's a simple and clear way to compare damage across powers.

You are doing 91 instead of 71, but that's because of -Res, not because of the base damage being 91... that -Res improves the base damage of Freezing Rain, also. But it also improves the damage of Fissure, as an example. Or Stone Cages. Since all of your sources of damage are improved by -Res in the same fashion, if we're trying to figure out what is the best source of AoE damage, then it makes sense to use base damage for comparisons.

 

I am quite a fan of using proc IOs on Controllers to do more damage. I've even put up some posts on the topic. I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone trying new ideas and builds. It actually seems to me that you are fixed on your idea of an earth/storm and are really close minded to having a mathematical analysis of DPS, and try to beat down anyone who tries to analyze numbers, but that's how damage is accurately measured.

 

I actually think that if I were playing Earth/Storm (and I did on Live), and interested in soloing with AoE ability, I would be squeezing procs into Freezing Rain and Earthquake, also. But I wouldn't do it without analyzing the numbers, and ending up saying "This is a pretty poor return on the IOs, but there really is nowhere else to add AoE damage to the build".

I said it was -res.

Please try and read my posts as i stated that the -res was improving the proc damage.

Point is even if 1 proc fires its still more damage than just slotting freezing rain with just damage enhancers.

And i have 5 in mine 5x71=355

Quote

It actually seems to me that you are fixed on your idea of an earth/storm and are really close minded to having a mathematical analysis of DPS, and try to beat down anyone who tries to analyze numbers, but that's how damage is accurately measured.

Someone always has a better build or can improve a build.

But stating that someones power full of procs is "doing nothing" like you stated is completely wrong and that is what this issue is about.

Hence the logs prooving you wrong and showing that freezing rain not only procs but procs a lot and does more damage than YOU stated.

 

Also adding procs/damage to powers that otherwise wouldn't do damage like quicksand for example is improving DPS.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Chelsea Rorec

[Bopper]

7 hours ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

So to clarify in my build.

Quicksand is Proc'ing twice.

Freezing rain is proc'ing ALOT.

Earth quake is also proc'ing.

Volcanic Gases is proc'ing

 

There is evidence of all of this in the combat logs posted and the tests with Bopper.

To be fair, we only looked at Quicksand together. I have not seen anything on the other powers.

[Sir Myshkin]

7 hours ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

There is evidence of all of this in the combat logs posted and the tests with Bopper.

So my question is if all of the above is correct why is nobody taking advantage of all these facts except me ?

As others specifically pointed out, besides myself, these powers were not working in past tests. When someone comes forward claiming other wise, we are going to ask for verification, which you demonstrated, and thus lead me to go out and actually do more significant testing besides just "one or two" attempts. The reason no one was utilizing procs in the Rain powers, is because they didn't have value, so please don't let that get over-inflated.

 

Also, worth mentioning cause after the second page, in how it read, this isn't a bunch of us ganging up on you. Well, I can only speak for myself I guess on that front, but I would make the assumption that no one else has that intention. It did almost look as such given how fast so many people came in to say "That's not how that works." But please keep in mind that you are the first person to come back saying something that definitively didn't work was suddenly working again, and [we] (collectively) wanted to verify that.

 

7 hours ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

I really hope these tests have changed your mind about what is actually going on with earth powers and you atleast think about slotting some procs in those powers because i really enjoy my build and like i've said before it's fantastic for herding and destroying large mobs.

My original statement still stands that your build has holes, and can perform better, and you should still review what changes can be made holistically. I went and verified what impact has changed in the Rain effects, and even with the fact that they are now giving proc feedback of significance, they're not performing at a level that warrants 100% dedication. As @Coyote was trying to point out, even in the realm of "yes they do" those powers are still not creating such an imbalance that they're worthy of saying "I farm with this." I couldn't clear a simple level 42/43 spawn of Council, Malta, or Rikti with even two applications of Freezing Rain (the one power out of the allotment doing the most work). When I stacked Ice Storm (for reasons of testing Rains), I still couldn't kill off the spawn outside of a lucky repeated proc hit on a minion level mob.

 

Stacking triggers from multiple powers, now that's where you're getting to the ability of clearing things, but it isn't coming from just one or two of those powers, and your mass AoE immobilize is doing a lot of lifting in itself by just keeping things in your patches. A baseline proc doing 71pts of damage will need to apply on the same minion at least 5 times, 4 if we account for FR and AoE Immob having their own damage components in a single application. Now I'm looking specifically at level 50, minion health does change based on level.

 

That out of the way, I went and collected a wider sample set of an hours worth of dropping Freezing Rain with Ice Storm and Blizzard splashed in between cooldowns as I ran through the RWZ. I did test on both a Corruptor and a Controller to make sure we weren't looking at a variance between Controller version or Corruptor version of Freezing Rain. Since the file for it is rather long (thank you, rain effects), I can't/won't drop it into a Spoiler field, and just attach it instead.

 

What came about from it is that, yes, it looks like something has changed in how the abilities are reporting because up to (at least August 19th, when I had tested Earthquake as well), they were not reporting back with procs. Now there is an initial trigger at launch of the ability, and then a chance every following 10/s interval. It would appear the trigger at launch is the greatest opportunity, and there are subsequent follow-up triggers, but they appear far less in volume. I stuck to targeting spawns with at least 7 mobs, eventually finding a spot in the SW corner of RWZ that had Council packs of 10-12 more consistently, and even some 16. On average, in a spawn grouping of those sizes, I only ever saw a max of 3 additional procs after the initial fire of the ability. Ice Storm and Blizzard are also now actively reporting back proc damage just as Freezing Rain, although it also appears these are sticking to mostly front-loaded initial chance, with very slim returns at the 10/s interval. Harder to quantify on Blizzard as that ability does a considerable amount more damage and kills off the minions rather quickly, lowering my chances to trigger on total mobs in the spawn. There's also the fact that FR can take a ton more proc options, thus increasing its potential to trigger something just by having a larger pool of dice to roll.

 

Excluding Earthquake, the rest of Earth Control wasn't in contention and was known to be working as intended, the mass of the debate was specifically focused on Freezing Rain. Technically what I'd tested a month ago with Earthquake, it too wasn't reporting back a significant value, but even with just the FF+Rech, that power was wroth taking anyway, quicksand... in my opinion, less so (even with a proc in it) as it doesn't significantly contribute to Earth, let alone Earth/Storm.

 

6 hours ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

It's proc'ing TWICE.

It is relevant to note that just because you noticed two specific hits from a proc, looking at the entirety of spawn the power gets dropped on is more important. Getting one proc at drop, and one proc later on at the 10/s interval, on just one or two specific mobs isn't great when the power gets dropped on a spawn of 10+. For there to be significant value, it needs to have a greater average performance than just "once on one thing, or twice on one thing, or once each on two things." It needs to be "three times (or more) twice, on three things (or more)."

 

Freezing Rain can take four damage procs, which is four rolls on X targets, with two roll chances. If all we ever got back were two successful hits, that's not a great return. Luckily it isn't that abysmal in reality, and does about 4-5 on initial hit, and 2-3 on follow up, which isn't bad, based on what I tested today.

 

On 9/7/2019 at 11:37 AM, Bopper said:

For what it's worth, I use 4 procs in my Distortion Field, which lasts for 45 seconds also, but has only a 20 foot radius (so higher probability to proc). I get very good production out of it.

Just to tune you in on this change, too, looks like something got "fixed" somewhere in the last month, as Rains are reporting back damage from procs across the board, and not just isolated to Freezing Rain. I dug around trying to see if I could find a posted log from before to show the difference, but couldn't find it (I thought I had, but maybe I didn't post one). They're definitely using a 10/s scaling for triggers, and even Earthquake is returning values that I didn't capture nearly a month ago, but if you wanted something for your own records, I've got an hours worth of game log attached to this dropping some kind of rain every 15-20/s.

chatlog 2019-09-08.txt

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Just to tune you in on this change, too, looks like something got "fixed" somewhere in the last month, as Rains are reporting back damage from procs across the board, and not just isolated to Freezing Rain. I dug around trying to see if I could find a posted log from before to show the difference, but couldn't find it (I thought I had, but maybe I didn't post one). They're definitely using a 10/s scaling for triggers, and even Earthquake is returning values that I didn't capture nearly a month ago, but if you wanted something for your own records, I've got an hours worth of game log attached to this dropping some kind of rain every 15-20/s.

Thanks, if you dont mind, I will quote this in the proc guide as it is significant testing and could he useful for historical purposes. I wonder if the possible change to procs in rains has resulted in a difference in performance I'm now seeing in enflame. I've asked a GM about it multiple times recently but have been given the cold shoulder. Perhaps there was a change, but they're not advertising it (possibly out of fear of potential exploitation? Who knows).