When you think someone is playing their AT "wrong" ...

[PaxArcana]

I'd also like to point out, that the above approach - asking "why?" before saying "you're doing ____ wrong!", can also be applied to behavioral issues, like running ahead, and so forth.

 

SBasically ... just stop accusing other people of "doing it wrong" until after you know the why of what they're doing.  Sometimes they might bloody well be justified.  Sometimes, they might just not know better.  Always, being human beings, they will react poorly if you start off with an accusatory or derogatory tone, e.g. by saying "you're doing ____ wrong".  Ask why they're doing that .... and if their reasoning is unsound, still don't attack their choice(s).  Instead, sell them better choices.  Pitch those better choices in a way that makes them excited, or at leats interested, in giving them a try.

 

You'll have better results with literally every not-a-jerk player on the planet.  I still have good memories of the player who I first teamed with as an utter n00b, because they didn't say "you're wrong to do ___", they instead said, "you'll be happier if you ___", even when my choices had been made erroneously, out of ignorance.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know anything I say wont change this faulty way of thinking... 

 

...But let me just be blunt in saying that when a player hears this or gets this kind of reaction (as in "why do people keep quitting the team when I bring X character") from enough other players, they'll realize, eventually, no matter how much you wish to shield them from the hard, cold reality against them, that the problem is in fact in their lap. ...And they will be all the more angry at all the dishonest, patronizing people around them, even if they *are* actually too soft to handle reality.

 

People do, in fact, play their characters the wrong way, and when this happens, they deserve to be told the truth, in a straightforward manner. You say otherwise, but I know every single one of you here knows this is the truth, because I know you've all teamed with at least one Gravity Controller that puts the Troll in Controller, when they clearly don't mean to. There is no easy solution here, while you worry about hurting their feelings and scorn players who wish to correct them, you completely miss something obvious: That you're disrespecting the player in error by treating them like they're some combination of incapable of learning, too soft to face criticism and/or prefer a hugbox to reality.

Faulty way of thinking? and you call others elitist thinkers? Yikes! You know one can be civil when offering advice and trying to help others improve right?

 

You make me think of a Fire X3 blaster I once encountered on live. Id say it happened around 08 maybe early 09 as psi blast on blasters was pretty new still and many wrongly thought powers like drain psyche worthless on a blaster.

 

I joined this LGTF as the 1st recruit as I had come to start one, saw another blaster the fire x 3 recruiting and signed up. a few others joined pretty quick, but then this fire x 3 proceeded to waste 5 other players time taking enarly an hour because they had to have a tank and a healer or we would surely fail.

 

Eventually one of the early joiners alted to an empath def they said they rarely played mainly to assist their SG mates now and then. They stated they did not usually play support and wouldnt be great at it. So spot 7 went to I think it was another scrapper, we had a few on the team I recall. the final spot went to a brute. The Brute said it wasnt really much of a lite tank but seeing as real tanks have always been a rarity the Fire X3 grumbled but due to the rest of us growing impatient having been waiting nearly an hour at this point  to get going, The Fx3 finally decided to settle and we began.

 

It became pretty clear to my old eye that the fire x 3 was too much of an aggro magnet, the brute lose aggro every nuke, or RotP the leader would resplat, the empath would try to res again, the brute would get hammered. I was trying to play like a proper back row blaster and kept sending PMs to the brute and empath to keep up their morale because the Fx3 leader was being very abusive to them, laying every death at their feet. I want to say the brute was an SS/Sr and dont think debuff resistance had been added to SR yet at that time so they just could not take all the aggro, between drones and the mad fire blaster the poor brute was hammered down as soon as the empath had to divert attention to the mana sponge fire x 3 who demanded to be rezzed and kept healed at all times.

 

Finally I had enough, and cut loose. As the fire X3 and brute fell, the empath and the rest shortly after I called upon the force of nature, hurled myself into the center of the storm, and layed waste. I cleared a room and likely 8 groups of mobs solo, while the team, minus the leader cheered me on.  After I cleared that room and got the team up on their feet by passing the empath a wakie, the leader really started to tear into everyone, and then dared to turn their tude at me. This was in the 3rd mish, and each mish had dragged on. So the time investment was already high enough everyone else being on the timid side did not dare speak up and argue with the fireX3. Not I. So when the so called leader dared to say I was playing wrong, that I was too little DPS and too much survival power. That I did know how to play, that they were the only non gimp on the team blah blah blah I let them know exactly what I thought and told them to shut up or Id quit, thye said go ahead your booted as soon as you leave the mish anyways. The brute and empath begged for me to stay and told the leader no way the team could hope to succeed without me. I apologized and left the team one of the very few times I have ever quit a tf mid way.

 

I then went and started a fresh lady grey. I sent tells to my former allies letting them know but they all thought it would end up taking too long to start afresh. They were wrong. I rapidly built a team of any AT first takers. We exited the 3rd mish just about the same time my old team did. and my old allies were baffled. They couldnt fathom how. It was nota  speed team just being efficient and not wasting time with corner pulls and tank and spank wowtard play.

 

I kept PMing the empatha nd brute and globaled both, they kept updating me on the nightmare TF they chose to stick with, which ended up failing when they couldnt take out hamidon in part 4. The fireX3 couldnt handle the ranged only mitos. The team kept wiping on every big room etc apparently and kept having to re enter mishes after hosping.

 

In my experience those who think they know how to play my character, or dictate to others how to use a build or are dependent on specific roles to succeed are among the very worst wowtards. And I say to all of them stick with WoW.

 

This is entirely different then being a role play elitist which I am a fair bit of a lore snob and frankly proud of it;)

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

I'd also like to point out, that the above approach - asking "why?" before saying "you're doing ____ wrong!", can also be applied to behavioral issues, like running ahead, and so forth.

Basically, any issues, RL as well...Great advice!

 

[XaoGarrent]

5 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

I'd also like to point out, that the above approach - asking "why?" before saying "you're doing ____ wrong!", can also be applied to behavioral issues, like running ahead, and so forth.

I did exactly this before responding to you. Maybe consider that people are asking "why," they're not just getting answers that you like to hear.

[PaxArcana]

4 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I did exactly this before responding to you. Maybe consider that people are asking "why," they're not just getting answers that you like to hear.

No, you did not.  You leapt right into telling my my "way of thinking" was "faulty", and (saying you were sure you couldn't change it) implying I would be too stupid to think "correctly".

 

Then went on to do neither more nor less than say that, unlike what I had opened with, it was good and right to tell others "you're doing ___ wrong".  Justifying it with the assumption that (as you implied was the case with me) they were almost certainly just too stupid to know better, and so you would be sharing your Elite Wisdom from on high.

 

11 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

I know anything I say wont change this faulty way of thinking... 

 

...But let me just be blunt in saying that when a player hears this or gets this kind of reaction (as in "why do people keep quitting the team when I bring X character") from enough other players, they'll realize, eventually, no matter how much you wish to shield them from the hard, cold reality against them, that the problem is in fact in their lap. ...And they will be all the more angry at all the dishonest, patronizing people around them, even if they *are* actually too soft to handle reality.

 

People do, in fact, play their characters the wrong way, and when this happens, they deserve to be told the truth, in a straightforward manner. You say otherwise, but I know every single one of you here knows this is the truth, because I know you've all teamed with at least one Gravity Controller that puts the Troll in Controller, when they clearly don't mean to. There is no easy solution here, while you worry about hurting their feelings and scorn players who wish to correct them, you completely miss something obvious: That you're disrespecting the player in error by treating them like they're some combination of incapable of learning, too soft to face criticism and/or prefer a hugbox to reality.

 

^^^^  That, right there, is not "why do you say that", it is directly and bluntly "you are wrong".  And is exactly the kind of dismissive, elitist nonsense this thread is aimed at countering.

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, PaxArcana said:

No, you did not.

Yeah, I did.

[PaxArcana]

14 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

[... the Nightmare TF from Hell ...]

Yep.  That is exactly the kind of thing I meant: telling people, who do not conform to your own exact preconceptions of how every archetype in the game is supposed to play, that they are playing wrong if they don't conform to those preconceptions.

 

Way back on Live, in Issue 5 in fact, I rolled a Gravity/Empathy Controller.  My thought was, "let's try this Controller thing, and see how it goes.  And oh hey, I'll pick up Empathy so I can heal people now and then, too."  Well, very low-level, running Frostfire ... the team leader, a Tank, decided to bawl me out because he kept biting off more than he could chew, and I was occasionally going OOM trying to keep him, and the rest of the team, up .... while also, you know, being a Gravity controller and Holding or Immobilizing the badguys.  (I was actually being kinda smart about it, letting them bunch up around the Tank before slapping the AoE immobilize on them, for example).

And, as I say, he bawled me out ... because I was "supposed" to be JUST healing.  Nothing else.  Just, put him on /follow and rock the aura.  Nevermind the "controller" thing, never mind the entire Gravity Control powerset.  Just stand right behind him and rock the aura.

 

...

 

I deleted that character five minutes later, and it was over a year before I tried Empathy again (with a group of people I actually knew, and felt I could trust not to treat me that way).

[PaxArcana]

5 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

Yeah, I did.

Not even close. There wasn't a single actual question anywhere in that initial reply you made, Xao.  Just assumptions and accusations.

[XaoGarrent]

13 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Not even close. There wasn't a single actual question anywhere in that initial reply you made, Xao.  Just assumptions and accusations.

No question towards you was required. You gave me the needed answers already, and even if I did feel the need to ask you questions to gather more information, I wouldn't expect to be able to get good information from your replies. At least, taking them at face value, as you seem to want me to.

 

You're misunderstanding: I asked questions about the large volume of information you've presented and narrowed down the possible results, and most of the charitable possibilities vanished long before I was done doing this.

Edited August 26, 2019 by XaoGarrent

[Jeneki]

16 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

When you think someone is playing their AT "wrong" ...

... Then I am playing on a harder difficulty and adjust as needed.  Use a few extra inspirations, or perhaps take an extra jog to the mission.  No biggie.

 

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

No question towards you was required.

Yes, actually, it was.

See, you went off and insisted I was wrong ... based on your own asumptions.  Assumptions that, as it turns out, are wrong: ot's not about coddling anyone, it's about not assuming other people are stupid, just because they aren't conforming to your own personal preconceptions.

Also: if you now admit you did not ask me any question .... why did you insist you HAD asked me "why" ...?  Not once, but twice ...?  <--- this is me asking, instead of just assuming the worst of you ... 

[Twisted Toon]

The only time I tend to get irritated with the way other people play, is when they repeatedly knock my target away from me when I'm playing on my Melee characters. But, I think that's a universal irritation.

[miaasma]

honestly, i've never been told that i've been doing a build wrong (or a "wrong" build), and i barely know what i'm doing on any melee AT.  so i surmise that people like the OP, who just play the game to have fun and only speak up when someone's playstyle affects the performance of the team negatively, are in the majority, and it's part of what i love about the cooperative aspect of the game; people in general are pretty cool about sub-optimal builds, in my experience

 

either way, i appreciate people who use the OP's mindset

[biostem]

There are people who want to play as part of a team, and those that want to lead, (read: control), a team.  Similarly, there are people that skip over or don't use certain powers because they have experience and don't think they need them, vs those that don't know just how vital or useful certain powers are, (maybe a /kin didn't take speed boost because they solo 99% of the time).  IMO, it's not a matter of playing your AT wrong, inasmuch as whether you are willing to work with other members of your team and whether those other members are open to genuine & constructive criticism/feedback.

 

I, for one, am not going to get upset of a defender on my team is doing a lot of blasting, but if they are barely using any of their primary powers, and the team is suffering because of it, then we'll definitely need to rethink our strategy.  I'm not going to suggest kicking them, but a constructive, "hey, can you focus a little more on the buffing/debuffing", wouldn't be out of line, IMO.

 

I'd say this type of behavior was a bit more forgivable back in the days where certain powers weren't available to certain ATs, but now, if you want blast set X, and your playstyle is more like that of a blaster, then perhaps that would be a better fit than a defender, (I still wouldn't just kick someone because they didn't play how I thought they should, though)...

[Sakai]

Glow Worms FTW. 

[DR_Mechano]

I get this but especially in the case of a Petless MM, considering pets are LITERALLY THE REASON YOU PICK A MASTERMIND over a Corruptor or Defender then yeah (Masterminds have the same access to power sets as those two when it comes to picking buffs/debuffs apart from I think Traps might still be unique), it is playing it wrong. The entire AT is built around the use of summoning and controlling pets, it's right there in the AT description, to ignore that is to ignore the entire point of the AT. As even you, yourself, mentioned, why not play one of those other ATs that would generally be a tad more useful with the team than the simple debuffs/buffs and incredibly anemic personal attacks.

 

A Blapper? Still doing what its AT is designed for, damage. Is the AT doing the job it was designed to do? Can the Tanker actual tank things? Yes? Great. don't care how you do it just...you know...tank things (don't be a sluggish tank that takes forever to jump in however, look I get you're Dark Armor and your toggles cost a metric ass-ton of endurance so you need to wait before each mob but maybe turning off that fear aura that you're running might help you with that...). Can the melee ATs deal damage? Yes? Cool. Can the control ATs do their thing (now I would be specific about this one but control sets are all kind of out there and do their thing in vastly different ways. Storm for example is all about KB/KD, Illusion is all about throwing pets at the problems and confuse etc.)? Cool. Can the ATs with buffs and debuffs do their thing? Yes? Cool. If not...why aren't you just playing a Blaster if you just wanted to deal ranged damage? You'd be dealing MORE of it if you did. Heck just take the key buffs/debuffs from your secondary/primary.

 

That is my own personal view. Why pick an AT and FORCE it to be something it isn't when there are obvious other, much better, options available for what you want to do? If you wanted to make an Offender, just pick Radiation Emission, it has a grand total of FOUR key powers, you can ignore the rest. Not only that but the powers you DO pick help you deal more damage, faster and easier with the side effect that, surprise, they also help out a team when you're on one. 

 

Now if you're trying some sort of Iron Man build like Power pools only after level 2, go for it, just let me know that you're doing it beforehand, I'll take you on a team.

Edited August 26, 2019 by DR_Mechano

[Skyhawke]

2 hours ago, Jeneki said:

... Then I am playing on a harder difficulty and adjust as needed.  Use a few extra inspirations, or perhaps take an extra jog to the mission.  No biggie.

 

Bingo.  This game is super user friendly and fairly idiot proof.  I've been on teams where a couple people pull the fat out of the fire continuously, but everyone had a fun time.  You never know who's behind the keyboard and there might be circumstances to the behavior.  I saw one person have something in their character description about only having one good hand to play so they couldn't type and attack at the same time.  They asked for patience at the end of the description and it really hits home that, at the end of the day, it's a game and we're all here to have a good time.  Digging into someone isn't a good time for them and shouldn't be what other consider a good time.

[PaxArcana]

2 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

it is playing it wrong.

Nope.

 

Wierd, yeah, sure.

Wrong ... no such thing.

[Heraclea]

5 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

Way back on Live, in Issue 5 in fact, I rolled a Gravity/Empathy Controller.  My thought was, "let's try this Controller thing, and see how it goes.  And oh hey, I'll pick up Empathy so I can heal people now and then, too."  Well, very low-level, running Frostfire ... the team leader, a Tank, decided to bawl me out because he kept biting off more than he could chew, and I was occasionally going OOM trying to keep him, and the rest of the team, up .... while also, you know, being a Gravity controller and Holding or Immobilizing the badguys.  (I was actually being kinda smart about it, letting them bunch up around the Tank before slapping the AoE immobilize on them, for example).

And, as I say, he bawled me out ... because I was "supposed" to be JUST healing.  Nothing else.  Just, put him on /follow and rock the aura.  Nevermind the "controller" thing, never mind the entire Gravity Control powerset.  Just stand right behind him and rock the aura.

 

This is why I don't play Kinetics.  I tried.  Playing Kinetics meant constant tells demanding Speed Boost from the scrapper who ran three spawns ahead.  Nope. 

[William Valence]

People worry too much about other peoples characters.

[MunkiLord]

I took Provoke on my Arch/Temp Blaster for shits and giggles, even though I knew it was considered wrong, thinking it could be interesting. But Provoke sucks and I can't pull aggro from the Tanks or Brutes for anything. The only time it's really worked is when I ran an all Blaster ITF, and all it really did there was get me debt. I was very disappointed in myself.

[DR_Mechano]

1 hour ago, PaxArcana said:

Nope.

 

Wierd, yeah, sure.

Wrong ... no such thing.

In that we're going to have to agree to disagree then. Petless MMs are just worst Defenders/Corruptors. If you wanted a petless play style, play one of them. I get that some people are like 'but muh whip attacks!' for character concept but I'm sorry that if I have the option of taking a Petless MM or literally any other class...I will take the other class. As a team leader that is MY choice. If the MM doesn't announce their a petless MM and we're actually doing something like the Ms Liberty/Recluse TF Master of Badges, I will probably say to them that they need to tell me, up front, this is what they've planned next time and depending on how they react to that, either kick them or keep them around but keep a VERY close eye on them since they are basically playing half an AT.

[MunkiLord]

I want to see an all petless MM Ms Liberty TF. Lore Pets would be allowed.

[Ananke]

Anyway, at the same time, if you go and play petless MM and try to join a badge run for The Really Hard Way (which requires us all to bust our asses) don't get surprised if you're removed and replaced once someone realizes that you're a memelord. As much as people coming in to tell you how to play your AT can be totally unwarranted and obnoxious, it's just as obnoxious to deliberately be sub par and expect people to be fine with it. Naturally though this only applies if someone actually knows they're playing dumb bullshit, but that's why I picked the petless MM example because there's basically no way that you wouldn't know better (seriously, you don't play a beastmastery hunter on WoW and refuse to use pets for example).

 

If you're going to play some bullshit for normal content it's whatever; the Incarnate system ensures that unless you're genuinely trolling that you'll probably be fine. Just don't expect everyone to be fine with a ridiculous concept like superspeed, sorc flight, teleport and superjump all on the same character once you try to do serious badge runs or if a group is very dedicated to speedrunning. Your performance in a team game never exists in a vacuum: you have to be respectful towards other people's time too.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Ananke

[PaxArcana]

7 minutes ago, Ananke said:

Anyway, at the same time, if you go and play petless MM and try to join a badge run for The Really Hard Way (which requires us all to bust our asses) don't get surprised if you're removed and replaced [...]

Sure, absolutely.  That would be a perfect example of a build that doesn't fit the goal of the team.  But you still don't need to tell the player "you're playing a Mastermind wrong".  Instead, you could tell them "A no-pet Mastermind isn't going to be able to keep up, and we can't carry anyone for this - everyone has to be able to pull twice their own weight.  Good luck finding a team that you fit with better."

Edited August 27, 2019 by PaxArcana