Tankers and Knockback Resistance vs Knockback Protection

[William Valence]

2 hours ago, EverStryke said:

So I posed a question... What if knock back iOS we're bumped up from four points to 10 points a piece?

 

This would give people who play fire dark and electric armor sets the ability to tank recluse without being thrown around like a rag doll.

 

Do you feel that would be a happy medium?

Doesn't seem like a medium, just a different implementation of "I want to ignore Knockback despite that being a weakness of my powerset/AT selection".

 

IOs are not restricted to Fire, Dark, or Electric armor, and Recluse has the big daddy knockback, so if IOs can get Dark armor to ignore Recluse's KB, then it lets everyone ignore KB.

 

 

[EverStryke]

13 minutes ago, William Valence said:

Doesn't seem like a medium, just a different implementation of "I want to ignore Knockback despite that being a weakness of my powerset/AT selection".

 

IOs are not restricted to Fire, Dark, or Electric armor, and Recluse has the big daddy knockback, so if IOs can get Dark armor to ignore Recluse's KB, then it lets everyone ignore KB.

 

 

Again I ask you who does it hurt?

 

If a game doesn't change and evolve players end up getting stagnant and moving on.

 

We obviously don't see eye-to-eye on this.

 

I guess I would simply ask dark fire and electric simply can't do anything but get thrown around like a rag doll when fighting recluse... Why even categorize them is tanks?

 

The definition of tank is to be able to stand there and take damage.

 

Not get bounced from New Jersey to Texas while all the team laughs at your Armor's lack of knock-back resistance. (Because of a point 01 miscalculation in coding)

 

I noticed you didn't respond to the break Free question...

 

So since controllers defenders and blasters don't have innate mezz protection we should take brake free's out of the game?

 

And this time, I'm not being facetious.

 

If it's okay for tanks to literally not have a staple power of tanks... Why should every other player have the ability to ignore status effects?

 

Why not add knock-back protection/resistance inspirations?

 

You're happy medium according to your logic would simply to be use inspirations and it's okay.

 

So let's push that idea.

Edited September 5, 2019 by EverStryke

[MunkiLord]

If those sets were designed from the beginning without KB resistance, then it isn't a staple power of tanks in CoH.

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, EverStryke said:

But I have to point out that we're not asking that acrobatics protect people from all status effects... Just knock back. Let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.

 

No. He was making a point.  You're asking for mechanical changes that simply trivialize a game mechanic because you find it inconvenient/don't like it.

 

6 hours ago, EverStryke said:

As to blasters controllers and defenders getting stun locked... There are solutions.

 

As there are solutions for dealing with massive Knockback.

 

6 hours ago, EverStryke said:

It's time to make tanks great again. We have a chance to make some changes. I'm hoping we prevail in our effort to get these changes pushed through.

 

Tanks are already great.  They're just not all cookie-cutter reflections of one another.

And this is a Good Thing.

 

[EverStryke]

Just now, Hyperstrike said:

 

No. He was making a point.  You're asking for mechanical changes that simply trivialize a game mechanic because you find it inconvenient/don't like it.

 

 

As there are solutions for dealing with massive Knockback.

 

 

Tanks are already great.  They're just not all cookie-cutter reflections of one another.

And this is a Good Thing.

 

No. Not asking for mechanical changes. I'm asking for value changes.

 

Pre i-12 it was mag 100. Post i-12 it was lowered to 9.

 

That's a 91% degradation of the value.

 

It is my firm belief that the power was supposed to be lowered to 90 instead of 9.

 

It was an error and it was never fixed.

 

It's not trivial when you're getting thrown around like a rag doll as a tank.

 

As for solutions to dealing with knock-back, you would literally have to put in 8 knock-back iOS and take acrobatics to be able to take a hit from recluse and not get thrown into another area code.

 

I think it's safe to say not many bills have eight extra slots laying around. The slotting economy is way too tight.

 

And until this issue is rectified tanks are not great.

 

Let's make tanks great again.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

Again I ask you who does it hurt?

 

You're not listening.
Who it does or does not hurt is IRRELEVANT.

The point is you're asking to completely negate a game mechanic.
A GM has politely told you the proposition has the chances of a snowball in Hell's furnace.

MUST they be more blunt with you?

 

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

If a game doesn't change and evolve players end up getting stagnant and moving on.

And if you make the game easy-street all around, they leave even faster.

 

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

We obviously don't see eye-to-eye on this.

 

I guess I would simply ask dark fire and electric simply can't do anything but get thrown around like a rag doll when fighting recluse... Why even categorize them is tanks?

 

Because you don't define a Tank solely on it's ability to withstand KB.  Especially in ludicrous specialty situations (which is what you're trying to do).

 

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

The definition of tank is to be able to stand there and take damage.

 

Not get bounced from New Jersey to Texas while all the team laughs at your Armor's lack of knock-back resistance. (Because of a point 01 miscalculation in coding)

 

You're contradicting yourself.

Since when is getting bounced around "damage"?

And again, it isn't like this around the entire game.  You have, MAYBE about 6 TOTAL situations in the game where you're dealing with Ludicrous Knockback.

You can't accept that your Wunder-build isn't a one-size-fits-all?

 

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

I noticed you didn't respond to the break Free question...

 

This is because a BreakFree is an ADAPTIVE mechanism.
 

 

[MunkiLord]

7 minutes ago, EverStryke said:

It is my firm belief that the power was supposed to be lowered to 90 instead of 9.

What is this belief based on?

 

And how many situations would a change from 100 to 90 make any difference?

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

No. Not asking for mechanical changes. I'm asking for value changes.

 

*Facepalm* You want Tanks without Knockback Resistance to either be given Knockback Resistance or a power reworked to give you Knockback Resistance.
Instead of adapting your build to higher levels of KB Protection or changing your playstyle to deal with a hole in your protections.

Those are mechanical changes.

 

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

 

Pre i-12 it was mag 100. Post i-12 it was lowered to 9.

 

That's a 91% degradation of the value.

 

It is my firm belief that the power was supposed to be lowered to 90 instead of 9.

 

It was an error and it was never fixed.

Simply because you dislike a mechanic doesn't mean you get to define it as an "error".

It's a setting that's persevered for 11 years and 14 issues.

4 of those years were under official purview of Paragon devs.

Hence

COTTAGE RULE
 

 

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

It's not trivial when you're getting thrown around like a rag doll as a tank.

 

You know what the definition of insanity is right?
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
If what you're doing doesn't work, instead of repeating it in the hopes that it'll EVENTUALLY work, try something DIFFERENT.

 

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

As for solutions to dealing with knock-back, you would literally have to put in 8 knock-back iOS and take acrobatics to be able to take a hit from recluse and not get thrown into another area code.

 

This is one way.  Yes.

There are other ways to cope with Ludicrous KB.

 

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

I think it's safe to say not many bills have eight extra slots laying around. The slotting economy is way too tight.

Then maybe think about twinking out a specialty build for such situations.

Or move on to more effective tactics.

 

1 minute ago, EverStryke said:

And until this issue is rectified tanks are not great.

We'll just have to disagree on this.

[EverStryke]

Just now, Hyperstrike said:

 

You're not listening.
Who it does or does not hurt is IRRELEVANT.

The point is you're asking to completely negate a game mechanic.
A GM has politely told you the proposition has the chances of a snowball in Hell's furnace.

MUST they be more blunt with you?

 

And if you make the game easy-street all around, they leave even faster.

 

 

Because you don't define a Tank solely on it's ability to withstand KB.  Especially in ludicrous specialty situations (which is what you're trying to do).

 

 

You're contradicting yourself.

Since when is getting bounced around "damage"?

And again, it isn't like this around the entire game.  You have, MAYBE about 6 TOTAL situations in the game where you're dealing with Ludicrous Knockback.

You can't accept that your Wunder-build isn't a one-size-fits-all?

 

 

This is because a BreakFree is an ADAPTIVE mechanism.
 

 

We will agree to disagree. You are obviously not open to the idea.

 

But no one gets hurt by this type of change. Quite the opposite actually. Ppl would finally have a reason to take acrobatics again.

 

As for negating game mechanics, that is exactly what power sets do. Armor resistance negates dmg. Armor defense avoids dmg. Etc, etc... And every player who enjoys perfecting their toons fights for every single percent they can in the endless pursuit of perfection in their eyes.

 

As for "A" GM making statements. There are more than 1 person in the circle of GMs.

 

You spelled "Wonder" wrong btw...

 

I do find it amazing you would relegate dark/fire/elec tanks to obscurity because of your unyielding views on how the game should work, not how it could work.

 

Even if it harms no one.

 

I would enjoy hearing examples of how such a change (to knockback in acrobatics) would "break the game".

[William Valence]

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

I guess I would simply ask dark fire and electric simply can't do anything but get thrown around like a rag doll when fighting recluse... Why even categorize them is tanks?

 

The definition of tank is to be able to stand there and take damage.

 

Not get bounced from New Jersey to Texas while all the team laughs at your Armor's lack of knock-back resistance. (Because of a point 01 miscalculation in coding)

That's tremendous hyperbole, and I know this because I main tanked A MoSTF on my Dark/EM tanker back before Incarnate powers.

 

 

Here's a 4man STF, that 10 years ago should be pre incarnate powers. The main tank is a Fire/EM I think their Ego is just fine too.

 

12 minutes ago, EverStryke said:

Pre i-12 it was mag 100. Post i-12 it was lowered to 9.

 

That's a 91% degradation of the value.

 

It is my firm belief that the power was supposed to be lowered to 90 instead of 9.

 

It was an error and it was never fixed.

This is not the case. The amount that Acrobatics was nerfed was known. It was known to the players prior to release as it was announced ahead of time and put on testing, and your belief that it was supposed to be 90, while your opinion, is wrong.

 

The patch note provided even said the intent was to allow KB to affect players in rare situations through acrobatics. Something that would not be possible if it was nerfed only 10 pts. to 90mag.

 

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

I noticed you didn't respond to the break Free question...

 

So since controllers defenders and blasters don't have innate mezz protection we should take brake free's out of the game?

 

And this time, I'm not being facetious.

I don't generally use inspirations. I tend to forget, so you could remove them and I'd be unlikely to notice. They are not required for play. Though it's interesting you keep mentioning them considering they do provide KB protection.

 

So, I guess there's that at least.

[EverStryke]

17 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

What is this belief based on?

 

And how many situations would a change from 100 to 90 make any difference?

How many powers in ANY game ever got a 90+ percent Nerf?

 

Like I said, it's a belief. Unprovable for certain, but stands to reason it was a simple oversight, and development team were busy dealing with IO set implimentations, and simply published it.

 

Never getting back around to fixing it, and ppl moved on.

Edited September 6, 2019 by EverStryke

[MunkiLord]

2 minutes ago, EverStryke said:

How many powers in ANY game ever got a 90+ percent Nerf?

 

Like I said, it's a belief. Unprovable for certain, but stands to reason it was a simple oversight, and development team were busy dealing with IO set implimentations, and simply published it.

 

Nevergetting back around to fixing it, and ppl moved on.

It's a belief you have no evidence to support, none. So it's not so much a belief, as something you made up to try and make a point. Which is fine, but you're lying.

[EverStryke]

7 minutes ago, William Valence said:

That's tremendous hyperbole, and I know this because I main tanked A MoSTF on my Dark/EM tanker back before Incarnate powers.

 

 

Here's a 4man STF, that 10 years ago should be pre incarnate powers. The main tank is a Fire/EM I think their Ego is just fine too.

 

This is not the case. The amount that Acrobatics was nerfed was known. It was known to the players prior to release as it was announced ahead of time and put on testing, and your belief that it was supposed to be 90, while your opinion, is wrong.

 

The patch note provided even said the intent was to allow KB to affect players in rare situations through acrobatics. Something that would not be possible if it was nerfed only 10 pts. to 90mag.

 

I don't generally use inspirations. I tend to forget, so you could remove them and I'd be unlikely to notice. They are not required for play. Though it's interesting you keep mentioning them considering they do provide KB protection.

 

So, I guess there's that at least.

Its sad that fire dark and electric should be relegated to super bouncy balls because some ppl lack the ability to question if the Nerf to acro was a simple oversight.

 

As for saying I'm flat out wrong... You need a ladder to get down off a soap box that high. lol.

 

As for needing inspirations, it was an idea inferred by a previous poster, I just extrapolated the idea and fleshed it out.

 

Let's make tanks great again!

 

Thx for the input.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by EverStryke

[DSorrow]

4 hours ago, EverStryke said:

4 hours ago, William Valence said:

The patch note provided even said the intent was to allow KB to affect players in rare situations through acrobatics. Something that would not be possible if it was nerfed only 10 pts. to 90mag.

 

Its sad that fire dark and electric should be relegated to super bouncy balls because some ppl lack the ability to question if the Nerf to acro was a simple oversight.

It would seem to me that it's pretty evident that it wasn't an oversight, but rather very intentional. There's maybe 1 enemy attack in the whole game that would knock you at 90 point KB prot, but not at 100, so I'd honestly question a power adjustment with no functional change as an oversight rather than the other way around.

 

As for the problem at hand, high mag KB is extremely rare. Some sets can't handle it as well as others, but the same could be said for many exotic CCs, -rech, end drain, toxic damage, psionic damage and so on. Should these holes be patched in other armor sets too? Besides, I don't think it's out of place that a juiced up incarnate end game boss can toss some heroes around. Even Hulk gets thrown around at times.

 

EDIT: Just so we can finally put this "Acrobatics oversight" thing to rest, see the patch notes for yourself: https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-05-20

 

Quote

• Leaping / Acrobatics - Reduced Knockback Protection of Acrobatics from 100 points to 9 points. Note that this means there are certain critters who will occasionally overcome the protection provided.

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by DSorrow

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, EverStryke said:

But no one gets hurt by this type of change. Quite the opposite actually. Ppl would finally have a reason to take acrobatics again.

So dumbing down the game because you want easy mode hurts NOBODY?
I wouldn't go that far.

 

7 hours ago, EverStryke said:

As for negating game mechanics, that is exactly what power sets do.

*Sigh*

There's no talking to you.

You want.  Period.  Not wasting my breath.

[Coolbreese]

10 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Hence

COTTAGE RULE
 

 

 

I don't want to derail this thread any further than it is but I think you're slightly off base on this one point here.  

 

"An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed."

 

That is the exact quote from Castle that defined "Cottage rules" for devs.  Adding KB resist to Acrobatics or adjusting its protection points would certainly be in-line with cottage rules.  Adjusting Grounded in Elec Armor also would be in the line with cottage rules.

 

Now, you're correct that changing the armors for Dark and Fire would probably violate cottage rules.  I just wanted to point out that one of the suggestions mentioned does not.  It was always one of my pet peeves on the old forums when someone threw out "cottage rules" as an end all argument for disregarding any potential change.  

 

It's pretty clear that the Devs aren't changing this, and I think it's great they at least took a moment to consider it.  

Edited September 6, 2019 by Coolbreese
Correcting information

[EverStryke]

To summarize my position. For those who are open minded on this subject.

 

I'm an avid STFr. And like to experiment with all ATs. But Lord Recluse has a mag 40 Knock-back attack. It's absolutely overwhelming without excessive KB protection or KB resistance.

 

Pre i-12, acrobatics had mag 100 KB protection (Not Resistance) and was capable of protecting fire/dark/electric tanks from getting thrown around like toys during the Recluse fight.

 

After i-12, it was reduced from 100 to only 9.

 

This relegated the aforementioned armor sets to obscurity as it pertains to Tanking Recluse. Yes, they can survive, but simply lack the ability to overcome the overpowered KB (40) from Recluse. And end up being thrown around like sock puppets.

 

Putting this into perspective, a player would need to slot 8 powers with KB protection IOs (Karmas, Steadfasts and Zephyrs) PLUS add acrobatics to exceed this overwhelming problem. Or find some magical way to fit 10 KB protection IOs in their builds. We all know this is not possible without extremely nerfing  your build.

 

As previously stated, the nerfing of acrobatics by 91% was massive. And it's my position that it was an oversight.

 

I believe firmly that the developers were busy, and meant to lower it to .9 but instead, lowered the value by inputting .09.

 

I've seen nerfs to many powers, armors, weapons from many games, but NEVER a 91% Nerf to ANYTHING before. Therefore I tether my thoughts to this supposition.

 

My request is simple... Alter acrobatics back to 100 or simply make it anything above 40.

 

If not, simply add Knock-back resistance to acrobatics.

 

This is a simple elegant fix that would prevent recoding several powers from other sets.

 

This isn't a mechanical issue, but simply a value issue. From my perspective.

 

Players will not "break the game" and the world will not "end" if the power is reinstated to it's former glory, and it opens options for not only Tanks, but every other AT in the game.

 

Quality of life issues regarding this aside, it will still make players choose.

 

It isn't free. You will need to make a conscious decision to give something up in your build to attain this power. As I believe it was originally intended.

 

For those of you who have read and understand my position, and stayed respectful instead of snarky and inflexible, I applaud you.

 

Your positions are respected no matter what side of the table you are on in this issue.

 

It was a great thing to see people talking about this possible coding oversight, and I hope with your help we can get these changes pushed through someday.

 

Let's make tanks great again!

 

EverStryke, OUT!

 

 

[HelenCarnate]

I have an alternate solution.  Make the Recluse KB unresistable.  That way all tankers are equally tossed around and everyone would have to adapt, not just a few sets. 

[Coolbreese]

2 minutes ago, HelenCarnate said:

I have an alternate solution.  Make the Recluse KB unresistable.  That way all tankers are equally tossed around and everyone would have to adapt, not just a few sets. 

I think that is called the old "Harrison Bergeron". 😀

[HelenCarnate]

1 hour ago, EverStryke said:

To summarize my position. For those who are open minded on this subject.

 

I'm an avid STFr. And like to experiment with all ATs. But Lord Recluse has a mag 40 Knock-back attack. It's absolutely overwhelming without excessive KB protection or KB resistance.

 

Pre i-12, acrobatics had mag 100 KB protection (Not Resistance) and was capable of protecting fire/dark/electric tanks from getting thrown around like toys during the Recluse fight.

 

After i-12, it was reduced from 100 to only 9.

 

This relegated the aforementioned armor sets to obscurity as it pertains to Tanking Recluse. Yes, they can survive, but simply lack the ability to overcome the overpowered KB (40) from Recluse. And end up being thrown around like sock puppets.

 

Putting this into perspective, a player would need to slot 8 powers with KB protection IOs (Karmas, Steadfasts and Zephyrs) PLUS add acrobatics to exceed this overwhelming problem. Or find some magical way to fit 10 KB protection IOs in their builds. We all know this is not possible without extremely nerfing  your build.

 

As previously stated, the nerfing of acrobatics by 91% was massive. And it's my position that it was an oversight.

 

I believe firmly that the developers were busy, and meant to lower it to .9 but instead, lowered the value by inputting .09.

 

I've seen nerfs to many powers, armors, weapons from many games, but NEVER a 91% Nerf to ANYTHING before. Therefore I tether my thoughts to this supposition.

 

My request is simple... Alter acrobatics back to 100 or simply make it anything above 40.

 

If not, simply add Knock-back resistance to acrobatics.

 

This is a simple elegant fix that would prevent recoding several powers from other sets.

 

This isn't a mechanical issue, but simply a value issue. From my perspective.

 

Players will not "break the game" and the world will not "end" if the power is reinstated to it's former glory, and it opens options for not only Tanks, but every other AT in the game.

 

Quality of life issues regarding this aside, it will still make players choose.

 

It isn't free. You will need to make a conscious decision to give something up in your build to attain this power. As I believe it was originally intended.

 

For those of you who have read and understand my position, and stayed respectful instead of snarky and inflexible, I applaud you.

 

Your positions are respected no matter what side of the table you are on in this issue.

 

It was a great thing to see people talking about this possible coding oversight, and I hope with your help we can get these changes pushed through someday.

 

Let's make tanks great again!

 

EverStryke, OUT!

 

 

You have already been told by devs that this will not happen.  This would allow anyone to ignore almost all KB by taking 1 power.  And no, it was not an oversight or an error to bring it to 9 as it was discussed before the change and even noted in the patch notes that the intent was to still make players affected by some KB even while they had Acrobatics.  If you want to be productive, pick a different fix as this horse has been dead for a while.

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, EverStryke said:

As previously stated, the nerfing of acrobatics by 91% was massive. And it's my position that it was an oversight.

 

I believe firmly that the developers were busy, and meant to lower it to .9 but instead, lowered the value by inputting .09.

Again, you have not provided any evidence this is a mistake. You are actively making that up in order to change the framing of the suggestion. It is manipulative, blatantly dishonest, and you are lying.

[justicebeliever]

8 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

Again, you have not provided any evidence this is a mistake. You are actively making that up in order to change the framing of the suggestion. It is manipulative, blatantly dishonest, and you are lying.

Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence...You are, as always, spot on MunkiLord

 

There is no evidence of it being an oversight, and there is evidence it was intentional....

[Purrfekshawn]

Speaking about Tank Powersets, l wonder if homecoming devs could make Energy Aura available for Tankers. It is available for Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, Sentinels, why not make it same for Tankers? Would be pretty good pseudo-dodge tank with Solid Resistance, self-heal & some HP buff, and extra recharge, energy drain option (as for aura Entropy Aura tends to taunt adds for Brutes, at least tooltip says so). l just've on Everlasting electric sentinel toon that uses Energy Aura, with capped defense on all types except Negative & Psionic, very solid Negative defense, normal resistance to all damage, option to perform massive de-energize type crowd control with varierty end-draining powers, capable to solo most 8M+4 content. Should be called "Dark Horse", as it's essentially Dark Horse from Champignonz Online.

With spacebar couldn't name it - any suggestion how to spell his proper name?

[MunkiLord]

I 100% support the idea of giving Energy Aura to Tanks. 

[Coolbreese]

"The game hinges around creating a personal super hero. People need to feel more powerful than everyone else, that's part of the fantasy. But when your choices are overshadowed by someone else who's tapped into an imbalance in design, that cheapens the gratification. Then when you try and balance the power, the people who've built up an identity centered around those powers/powersets without regard for their balance feel like they're being singled out.

Really no way to win..."

I found this quote from Back Alley Brawler, in regards to making adjustments to powers over the years, he said during one of his impromptu AMA's on reddit a few years ago.  It seemed fitting for this discussion.