Why Sentinel vs Blaster?

[modest]

1 hour ago, Obitus said:

Again, it isn't about piling on.  We all make mistakes.

 

But after he tells me to supply evidence that he's wrong, when the truth is staring him in the face, I feel like I have to dunk on him a little.

 

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Yes, we have established that in the last two pages and now I'm starting to feel like we are bullying the poor guy.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and baseless denunciation. @Sovera provided constructive criticism, and that's why I listened and tried out his suggestions. It's why I incorporated Char and Blazing Bolt into my chain. It's why I changed which procs I have slotted on Char.

 

@Obitus presented an opinion without any evidence. He essentially stated "You're wrong, and I'm correct, but I refuse to say why." This is not a constructive way of communicating.

 

1 hour ago, Obitus said:

 

We debated Blaster offensive capability endlessly on the old forums.  This is a dead-horse argument that I don't feel compelled to rehash.  It's mostly moot at this point anyway; Blasters got some great buffs, post-i24.  I still think they pay too high a price in the abstract for their offense, but they're strong when played well, and they maintain their distinctive feel.

 

I have a fair bit of experience theory crafting this stuff.  Your numbers are wrong, not in a gee-let-me-recheck-the-details kind of way, but rather in a lol-wow-holy-moly sort of way.  I don't say that to be mean; we all make mistakes.  Your numbers are just so dramatically inflated for Blasters, and likely deflated for Sentinels, that you may mislead readers.  So I would ask you to show your work, because you really haven't shown any so far; you've just thrown around facially silly numbers, along with a few screenshots of Mid's flawed DPS calculator.

Blasters are significantly different than they were on the live servers. I suggest that you read about the many changes, including the powers available in the new sets such as /Atomic or /Temporal. Your old theory crafting is, to be frank, not relevant to Blasters as they exist in the current game.

 

Do you believe that you'll receive a positive response when you use language such as "facially silly"? Is this meant to produce a constructive debate?

1 hour ago, Obitus said:

A brief skim of the Pylon thread proves my point.  The most impressive Blaster scores rely heavily on melee attacks.  They're not Flares-ing their way to greatness.  Think about it; here's your listing of your Blaster build's attack numbers:

 

Since Flares, Blaze, and Fireball all have the same activation time (1.188 seconds, Arcanatime), we can simplify your attack chain (Flares - Blaze - Flares - Fireball) as (149 + 385 + 149 + 162) / 4 = 211 DPS.   You said you could score 427 DPS, without Aim or Build Up, using this build!  Sure, you disclaimed that these numbers are only with Musculature, but if you can get 200+ DPS out of Hybrid Radial Assault, then I'll eat my hat.

 

I'm not taking crazy pills, nor am I knee-jerking.  The napkin math I've used above is far from perfect, but it's good enough to show that something's way off in your model.  Recheck whatever method you used to come to your conclusion.

You're wrong.

 

...

 

Do you see how, if I ended my statement there, it would add nothing to the discussion? That is why I haven't taken your feedback seriously. Here is why you're incorrect. Your numbers would be correct if I had slotted my powers with SOs or workbench IOs. However, these days that's simply not done at the incarnate level and it is not useful to calculate DPS with that expectation. There are a number of aspects that you have not taken into account:

• I slot my powers with IO sets. Many of these give global damage bonuses.
• Each of my primary attacks have at least one purple damage proc. They fire off consistently. Even if they only trigger half of the time, that's an additional 53.5 damage that is not accounted for in each skill's listed DPA.
• Fire Blast has a significant DoT effect. This is one of the main draws of Fire Blast. Titan Network shows that this damage adds an additional 49.98% damage on Blaze, 49.98% on Fire Ball, 42.25% additional damage on Flares (I'm including this just to prove a point), and 32.6% on Blazing Bolt. You're ignoring, at best, 40% of a Fire Blast blaster's damage.
• Blasters' inherent skill, Defiance, gives Blasters a stacking damage bonus that averages to ~40%. This stacks on top of any global set bonuses, IO specific bonuses, etc.

In short, you're incorrect because you're ignoring fundamental aspects of the current game.

 

If we take your 211 DPS number as being accurate, which it isn't, and apply a 40% DoT we arrive at 295.4 DPS. If we add the bare minimum of 40% global DPS bonuses, we arrive at 413.56 DPS. If we further apply the 53.5 damage from procs (it is higher in reality) we arrive at 467.06 DPS.

 

1 hour ago, Obitus said:

I'm also not sure why you think "Sentinels" should be compared to Fire Blast Blasters specifically.

I compared a Fire Blast Sentinel to a Fire Blast Blaster because those are the two toons that I have built and tested. Can you elaborate on why that comparison is flawed?

 

1 hour ago, Obitus said:

Again, it isn't about piling on.  We all make mistakes.

 

But after he tells me to supply evidence that he's wrong, when the truth is staring him in the face, I feel like I have to dunk on him a little.

I do not feel the need to dunk on you. I'm open to feedback, as long as you can provide it in a constructive manner.

Edited September 10, 2019 by modest

[Obitus]

 

1 hour ago, modest said:

Blasters are significantly different than they were on the live servers. I suggest that you read about the many changes, including the powers available in the new sets such as /Atomic or /Temporal. Your old theory crafting is, to be frank, not relevant to Blasters as they exist in the current game.

 

Yes, I know that the link I provided isn't directly relevant.  It's an old link to show that I've been hip deep in these numbers for years.  And given that you had to have the value of procs and fast snipes explained to you (by me, among others), I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to tell me to "read up" on the game's mechanics.

 

1 hour ago, modest said:

Do you see how, if I ended my statement there, it would add nothing to the discussion? That is why I haven't taken your feedback seriously. Here is why you're incorrect. Your numbers would be correct if I had slotted my powers with SOs or workbench IOs. However, these days that's simply not done at the incarnate level and it is not useful to calculate DPS with that expectation. There are a number of aspects that you have not taken into account:

• I slot my powers with IO sets. Many of these give global damage bonuses.
• Each of my primary attacks have at least one purple damage proc. They fire off consistently. Even if they only trigger half of the time, that's an additional 53.5 damage that is not accounted for in each skill's listed DPA.
• Fire Blast has a significant DoT effect. This is one of the main draws of Fire Blast. Titan Network shows that this damage adds an additional 49.98% damage on Blaze, 49.98% on Fire Ball, 42.25% additional damage on Flares (I'm including this just to prove a point), and 32.6% on Blazing Bolt. You're ignoring, at best, 40% of a Fire Blast blaster's damage.
• Blasters' inherent skill, Defiance, gives Blasters a stacking damage bonus that averages to ~40%. This stacks on top of any global set bonuses, IO specific bonuses, etc.

In short, you're incorrect because you're ignoring fundamental aspects of the current game.

You were, I assume, quoting Mid's numbers earlier, when you detailed your build's DPA figures.  Mid's incorporates the average fire-dot damage from Fire Blast attacks, and it incorporates global damage bonuses, so you can't add those on top.  Mid's also incorporates proc damage, albeit incorrectly.  If you were using some other methodology, then that's fine, but you're severely overestimating how much mileage you'll get out of global damage bonuses and a single purple proc per attack.

 

Let's go down the list here:

• It's a neat trick that you managed to slot "at least one purple damage proc" in all three of your Fire Blaster's attacks (Blaze, Flares, Fireball), because there are only two purple damage procs available for those attacks.  (Blaster's Wrath and Apocalypse; the TAOE purple set, Ragnarok, comes with a knockdown proc.)
• BTW, I've made a helpful spreadsheet that will allow you to calculate exactly how much average damage you can expect from procs in each attack.  (I also linked the spreadsheet earlier in one of my previous replies, which is notable only because you've decided to characterize all of my posts in this topic as entirely lacking in substance.)
• Already covered the DoT effect on Fire attacks.  Suffice to say that it's exceedingly likely you're counting it twice now.
• Yes, Defiance is very nice.  40% is a decent estimate for single-target chains

 

1 hour ago, modest said:

If we take your 211 DPS number as being accurate, which it isn't, and apply a 40% DoT we arrive at 295.4 DPS. If we add the bare minimum of 40% global DPS bonuses, we arrive at 413.56 DPS. If we further apply the 53.5 damage from procs (it is higher in reality) we arrive at 467.06 DPS.

Where to begin?  This is exactly what I was talking about, @Sovera.  As I said before, we all make mistakes, but I've rarely seen someone double down so fiercely when he's clearly out of his depth.  A 40% global damage bonus isn't net.  It's additive with your damage bonuses from slotting, Musculature, the passive boost from Hybrid, etc.

 

So let's say you have 95% damage slotting in each power, and another ~33% from Musculature Core Paragon (remember, 1/3rd of the Alpha obeys ED rules), for a total of +128% or so in +damage.  That means that your +40% in defiance bonuses is worth 40 / 228 = 17.5% net.  And that's pretty much the best case net for a build using Musculature; the net benefit will diminish as you add more damage bonuses, e.g. things like the average benefit of Aim/BU.

 

You also can't just add the average proc damage per attack to your DPS, because each attack has an activation time that exceeds 1 second.  That is, assuming that 53.5 were an accurate number in the first place, which it isn't.  Here, let me use my totally ignorant noob proc knowledge to help you out:

• (Blaster) Blaze has a base recharge timer of 10 seconds, and a non-Arcanatime activation time of 1 second.  This gives us a Modified Recharge Time of 11 seconds, which means that by default, a purple damage proc slotted in Blaze will have an 82.5% chance to fire, and thus an average damage per activation of 0.825 * 107.1 = 88.36 proc damage, if we assume zero recharge slotting in the power, which isn't practical.  Instead, if we give Blaze 90% in recharge slotting (roughly what you'd get from a purple set), then the proc's chance to fire drops to ~47%, for an average damage of 50.337 in Blaze.
• Flares has a base recharge timer of 2.18 seconds, and a non-Arcanatime activate period of 1 second.  This gives us an MRT of 3.18 seconds, which means that by default, a purple damage proc slotted in Flares will have a 23.85% chance to fire, and thus an average damage value of 25.5.  You'll probably have some recharge slotting in Flares, though (and it's worth noting that the Blaster's Wrath damage proc actually has +rech attached to it), so let's say 50% in recharge slotting, which would lower our average purple-proc damage on Flares to 19.7. 
• Fireball is more complicated, because it's an AoE.  As you can see with helpful spreadsheet, at Fireball's default recharge+activation time of 17s, the chance for Fireball to fire a purple proc on a single target is 65.8%, but of course it isn't practical not to slot recharge in Fireball.  Ideally you'd want a purple set in that power, so let's assume ~90% recharge, which would lower our chance to fire a purple proc to ~36.5%, for an average purple-proc damage of ~39.1.

The effects of Hybrid Assault Radial on your build will be more complex, though again my handy spreadsheet will give you the numbers.  Are you convinced yet that I a) know my stuff, and b) that the matter is significantly more complicated than you might like to think - not least because our info on Sentinel powers is frequently erroneous?  This is why my first reflex was to point to the Pylon thread, because although Pylon tests are flawed as predictors of general performance, they do provide an easy sanity check when someone makes a facially silly argument like yours, apparently based on little more than half an hour of playing around in Mid's.

 

If you really want to prove me wrong, then go ahead and record a video of your blaster build at 400+ DPS using that Flares-Blaze-Flares-Fireball chain.  I'll even let you use Aim and Build Up 😉

 

Like I said, man, I don't want to be mean.  I make math mistakes all the time, and I'm sure if you keep reading this forum, you'll catch me in one - but your preachy tone is unwarranted.  You may think that my criticisms were baseless or evidence free, but from my perspective (and the perspective of many long-time theorycrafting nerds here), you made an extraordinary claim and provided precious little in the way of substantiation.

 

Sentinels have a 0.95 damage scalar.  Blasters have a 1.125 damage scalar.  All else being equal, that means that Sentinels are at ~85% of Blaster damage.  Of course all else isn't equal; as noted earlier, Sentinel blast sets are different from their Blaster analogues in seemingly arbitrary ways.  (Sonic Sentinels, for example, may even have an advantage in single-target damage, due to the fact that they get high damage attached to Screech.) 

 

And we also have to contend with Defiance and Opportunity, the Blaster's access to Build Up, etc.  It isn't straightforwardly a matter of comparing AT damage scalars, but in the absence of any compelling evidence, ~85% of Blaster damage is the most obvious default assumption.  So your simply saying that "Blasters have twice the single-target damage of Sentinels, and here's my ludicrously over-estimated 427-DPS double-Flares attack chain to prove it," doesn't fly.  It's possible that you could find a like-to-like build comparison that features a Blaster at double the Sentinel's ST damage, but acting as if yours is the reasonable position that everyone else must spend vast effort to refute isn't appropriate.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Obitus

[Riverdusk]

On 9/8/2019 at 2:37 PM, modest said:

 

From this I can conclude that Sentinels at Incarnate 50+3 deal roughly 67% of the damage of a Corruptor without factoring in the Corruptor's secondary. Sentinels deal roughly 46% of the damage of a blaster without factoring in the blaster's Build Up or Defiance.

People are focusing on the blaster comparison, but the comparison given vs. corrupters is the one I more can't wrap my head around.  Taking away the secondary (and are you counting scourge or not?), you are pretty much left with just the damage scaler of the AT as the difference.  Sent range damage scale is at .95, corrupter is at .75? correct?  That also means ANY damage boosts are going to put the Sent that much further ahead due to having a higher base.  There are some minor differences in the powers damage/recharge between the two, but enough for that kind of overwhelming tilt?

 

 

 

[Tsuko]

1 hour ago, modest said:

I do not feel the need to dunk on you. I'm open to feedback, as long as you can provide it in a constructive manner.

 

Lots of nice people spent lot of time trying to explain you that your offhand estimations are based on flawed tools used out of context.

They even offer you nice "exit door" by assuming you did not know or do mistakes.

 

Is it so hard just to write :"it's ok, i did not know x and y and i will take a look at this, thank you."

 

But to be honnest, i m now sure that's just a waste of time and you just troll : YOU are the first to randomly throw numbers out of nowhere in our faces with no proof like recorded runs and you are the one asking to lot more insightfull people than you to prove their point.

 

So let's go back to the begining : i say that you are wrong and you mislead people for some reasons.

 

So now, show us the builds and record of your pylons runs or it never happened.

[modest]

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Yes, I know that the link I provided isn't directly relevant.  It's an old link to show that I've been hip deep in these numbers for years.  And given that you had to have the value of procs and fast snipes explained to you (by me, among others), I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to tell me to "read up" on the game's mechanics.

Again, do you think that this is a constructive way to communicate? I did not "have to have the value of procs and fast snipes explained to me". I changed the 4 damage procs that I was using in Char to two procs + two acc/damage hamidon (nucleolus) enhancements at @Sovera's recommendation. Do you understand how the way that you write might come across as abrasive, at least partially because you misconstrue what others say?

 

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

It's a neat trick that you managed to slot "at least one purple damage proc" in all three of your Fire Blaster's attacks (Blaze, Flares, Fireball), because there are only two purple damage procs available for those attacks.  (Blaster's Wrath and Apocalypse; the TAOE purple set, Ragnarok, comes with a knockdown proc.)

I mentioned above that I've changed my rotation to include Blaze, Char, and Blazing Bolt. I think I'll repeat that here for clarity. This is the third time that I've repeated that. If you ignore it this time, I'll have to conclude that you're trolling me.

• Blaze can slot Apocalypse: Chance of Negative damage (and Gladiator's Javelin)
• Char can slot Unbreakable Constraint (and Apocalypse if I decide to move it over)
• Gladiator's Javelin
• Blazing Bolt can slot Superior Blaster's Wrath. I might switch these around again because I'm not convinced that this is the best slotting.

Actually, if I wanted to be as condescending as you seem to want to be, I could point out that Flares slots Apocalypse and Superior Blaster's Wrath. 😜

 

Fireball has Positron, so you're right that it doesn't have a purple. But again, it's not in my regular rotation thanks to the changes that @Sovera recommended. If I have to repeat this a fourth time, please donate $5 to the charity of your choice.

 

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

BTW, I've made a helpful spreadsheet that will allow you to calculate exactly how much average damage you can expect from procs in each attack.  (I also linked the spreadsheet earlier in one of my previous replies, which is notable only because you've decided to characterize all of my posts in this topic as entirely lacking in substance.)

This spreadsheet is private and can't be viewed, but if you made it public then I would find the information helpful.

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

• Already covered the DoT effect on Fire attacks.  Suffice to say that it's exceedingly likely you're counting it twice now.

Where did you cover the DoT effects? As far as I can see, you haven't mentioned them once prior to this.

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Where to begin?  This is exactly what I was talking about @Sovera.  As I said before, we all make mistakes, but I've rarely seen someone double down so fiercely when he's clearly out of his depth.  A 40% global damage bonus isn't net.  It's additive with your damage bonuses from slotting, Musculature, the passive boost from Hybrid, etc.

 

So let's say you have 95% damage slotting in each power, and another ~33% from Musculature Core Paragon (remember, 1/3rd of the Alpha obeys ED rules), for a total of +128% or so in +damage.  That means that your +40% in defiance bonuses is worth 40 / 228 = 17.5% net.  And that's pretty much the best case net for a build using Musculature; the net benefit will diminish as you add more damage bonuses, e.g. things like the average benefit of Aim/BU.

You're right about this. That's what happens when I try to rush a reply without thinking in depth. This is why "napkin math" is unreliable.

 

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

You also can't just add the average proc damage per attack to your DPS, because each attack has an activation time that exceeds 1 second.  That is, assuming that 53.5 were an accurate number in the first place, which it isn't.  Here, let me use my totally ignorant noob proc knowledge to help you out:

Again, do you find that this is an effective way to communicate? Absolutely no one has been disrespectful to you in any way. No one has called you a "noob". It really seems like you're trying to be edgy and offensive. What does that accomplish?

 

Do you know why I added 53.5 damage for every one second? Because in your napkin math calculation, you calculated powers as if each one took one second to use. I was using your napkin math method. I agree that it's not an accurate representation which is why I specifically said that it was inaccurate. The whole process that you used to calculate that napkin math was inaccurate, and may (failed) attempt to point that out seems to have given you ammunition to criticize.

 

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

If you really want to prove me wrong, then go ahead and record a video of your blaster build at 400+ DPS using that Flares-Blaze-Flares-Fireball chain.  I'll even let you use Aim and Build Up 😉

You understand that multiple Fire/Atomic blasters have achieved 400+ DPS, right? And that a few of them have in fact used (gasp) Flares as a filler (the horror!). Do you acknowledge that? If not, I don't know how we can agree. We might have to simply agree to disagree.

 

Is it your position that Fire/Atomic blasters simply cannot achieve 400+ DPS from a single target rotation? Again, if that's your argument, then we can agree to disagree.

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Like I said, man, I don't want to be mean.  I make math mistakes all the time, and I'm sure if you keep reading this forum, you'll catch me in one - but your preachy tone is unwarranted.  You may think that my criticisms were baseless or evidence free, but from my perspective (and the perspective of many long-time theorycrafting nerds here), you made an extraordinary claim and provided precious little in the way of substantiation.

If I sound preachy, that is not my intention and I apologize. Maybe I was annoyed by your language and responded immaturely. That's my fault. The reason that I was annoyed was because of your dismissive, hostile language. It's not a successful way to conduct a dialogue.

 

38 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Sentinels have a 0.95 damage scalar.  Blasters have a 1.125 damage scalar.  All else being equal, that means that Sentinels are at ~85% of Blaster damage.  Of course all else isn't equal; as noted earlier, Sentinel blast sets are different from their Blaster analogues in seemingly arbitrary ways.  (Sonic Sentinels, for example, may even have an advantage in single-target damage, due to the fact that they get high damage attached to Screech.) 

 

And we also have to contend with Defiance and Opportunity, the Blaster's access to Build Up, etc.  It isn't straightforwardly a matter of comparing AT damage scalars, but in the absence of any compelling evidence, simply saying that "Blasters have twice the single-target damage of Sentinels, and here's my 427-DPS double-Flares attack chain to prove it," doesn't fly.  It's possible that you could find a like-to-like build comparison that features a Blaster at double the Sentinel's ST damage, but acting as if yours is the reasonable position that everyone else must spend vast effort to refute isn't appropriate.

If it were that simple, then we would have a lot more Sentinels posting Pylon times that were ~85% of the times that Blasters can achieve. Instead, we have one player who has managed that.

5 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

 

Lots of nice people spent lot of time trying to explain you that your offhand estimations are based on flawed tools used out of context.

They even offer you nice "exit door" by assuming you did not know or do mistakes.

 

Is it so hard just to write :"it's ok, i did not know x and y and i will take a look at this, thank you."

 

But to be honnest, i m now sure that's just a waste of time and you just troll : YOU are the first to randomly throw numbers out of nowhere in our faces with no proof like recorded runs and you are the one asking to lot more insightfull people than you to prove their point.

 

So let's go back to the begining : i say that you are wrong and you mislead people for some reasons.

 

So now, show us the builds and record of your pylons runs or it never happened.

I've thanked people for their feedback starting from the first replies to my post. The only person that I've not thanked is @Obitus, and that's because the only information that he offered in his initial post was that I was wrong.

 

Here are my flawed tools: I created a large number of toons on Justin and then recorded the damage and DPA of their skills. This is not theoretical crafting, it's in-game experience.

 

Frankly, achieving 400+ DPS on a Fire/Atomic blaster is not exceptional. Plenty of other players are able to do far more damage than I am, and more consistently. If this is offensive to you, then what can I say? We have a difference of opinion.

Edited September 10, 2019 by modest

[Hopeling]

13 minutes ago, modest said:

Here are my flawed tools: I created a large number of toons on Justin and then recorded the damage and DPA of their skills. This is not theoretical crafting, it's in-game experience.

Trying to calculate DPS from raw power data is the very definition of theorycrafting. "In-game experience" would be something that involves playing a character, not just looking at their power info.

[modest]

2 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Trying to calculate DPS from raw power data is the very definition of theorycrafting. "In-game experience" would be something that involves playing a character, not just looking at their power info.

You have a point.

 

Fire Blast/ Blasters at incarnate routinely do over 400 DPS in actual game content. They are playing their characters. There's a reason that Fire Blast is so popular with Blasters. I honestly don't understand why this information is received so negatively. Is it because it somehow challenges Sentinels? This does not diminish the Sentinel archetype in any way.

 

Looking through the Pylon thread, I see a Fire/Energy blaster with 458 DPS with a PvE build that is focused on defenses, not a specialized build built for raw damage. Here's a video. The same player achieved 589 DPS with an Ice/Fire Blaster.

 

Another Fire/Atomic player achieved 500+ DPS.

 

My build is not extraordinary, it's basically average for Fire Blasters. A 400 DPS chain is not in any way controversial or special for a Blaster.

[Hopeling]

5 minutes ago, modest said:

Fire Blast/ Blasters at incarnate routinely do over 400 DPS in actual game content. They are playing their characters. There's a reason that Fire Blast is so popular with Blasters. I honestly don't understand why this information is received so negatively. Is it because it somehow challenges Sentinels? This does not diminish the Sentinel archetype in any way.

That information is not being received negatively, nor is it "offensive"; it isn't even the point of discussion. Blasters doing 400 DPS is not news and nobody has said that it is. I have no idea why you think this is where people disagree with you.

 

People were criticizing your calculations as not making sense. Nobody said that 400 DPS is impossible to achieve, just that the specific attack chain under the specific conditions you proposed won't do it, because your math is wrong.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Hopeling

[modest]

2 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

That information is not being received negatively, nor is it "offensive"; it isn't even the point of discussion. Blasters doing 400 DPS is not news and nobody has said that it is. I have no idea where you have gotten this criticism.

 

People were criticizing your calculations as not making sense. Nobody said that 400 DPS is impossible to achieve, just that the specific attack chain under the specific conditions you proposed won't do it, because your math is wrong.

It's completely possible that my calculations didn't make sense. I'm happy to admit that if shown that. But if someone simply tells me that I'm wrong without evidence, how can I formulate a positive response to that feedback?

 

It's 100% possible that my calculations are incorrect. In the game, in actual gameplay, a Fire Blast/ blaster can easily achieve 400+ damage. My build, which is not especially remarkable, achieves that. It is helped by skills in /Atomic that provide a recharge boost: 20% from Metabolic Acceleration, 10% per enemy via Beta Decay.

[Hopeling]

4 minutes ago, modest said:

It's completely possible that my calculations didn't make sense. I'm happy to admit that if shown that. But if someone simply tells me that I'm wrong without evidence, how can I formulate a positive response to that feedback?

The obvious way: with evidence. Or at least show your work.

 

Moreover, that simply is not what happened. You got multiple detailed responses to your post immediately, all of them pointing out that your numbers were nonsense; you did basically nothing to address these concerns. For example, the very first response you got was Tsuko asking how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel, and how you got your numbers at all. You quoted her, but didn't actually respond to that pretty basic question. Instead, you responded with more context-free numbers without saying how you got them. If you throw out a bunch of numbers that look wrong, and don't say where they came from, how is anybody supposed to respond other than to say that your numbers are wrong?

 

Obitus commented a full page later, and also said that he thought you were wrong, without going further into that because all the important points had already been made, and you still hadn't addressed them.

[modest]

5 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

The obvious way: with evidence. Or at least show your work.

I did. I provided raw damage and DPA numbers from in game. Anyone can easily create a fire blast/ blaster on Justin and check them.

 

6 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

For example, the very first response you got was Tsuko asking how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel, and how you got your numbers at all.

Tsuko did not ask "how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel". That question does not exist in any way in any of her posts. Is it possible that you read something incorrectly?

 

Did you notice that I agreed with Tsuko regarding /Storm Summoning?

 

Did you notice that I answered Tsuko's questions?

8 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Instead, you responded with more context-free numbers without saying how you got them. If you throw out a bunch of numbers that look wrong, and don't say where they came from, how is anybody supposed to respond other than to say that your numbers are wrong?

 

Obitus commented a full page later, and also said that he thought you were wrong, without going further into that because all the important points had already been made, and you still hadn't addressed them.

You might share these same criticisms for anyone who shares DPS numbers in the Pylon thread or any other thread on the forums without providing video evidence.

[Hopeling]

5 minutes ago, modest said:

I did. I provided raw damage and DPA numbers from in game. Anyone can easily create a fire blast/ blaster on Justin and check them.

People weren't contesting the power info numbers, they were contesting your projected DPS.

5 minutes ago, modest said:

Tsuko did not ask "how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel". That question does not exist in any way in any of her posts. Is it possible that you read something incorrectly?

 

Did you notice that I agreed with Tsuko regarding /Storm Summoning?

 

Did you notice that I answered Tsuko's questions?

Right here:

Quote

- That's a lot of numbers... based on what builds ? which conditions ? how do you calculate your "dps" ? do you have recorded "dps" runs ? i can come to this very forum and say :" look my sentinel does over 9000 dps" too.

 

 - Sentinels Blaze DPA : 130 / Blaster Blaze DPA : 170 / coruptor blaze DPA 113,9.

Using the same terrible rotation (Blaze / flares / fireball) on both sentinel and coruptor, how do you end up with more dps on the corupter than the sentinel ?

You did not answer these questions. You said you agreed with her assessment of /Storm, and then cited some more DPA numbers, again without saying where you got them.

8 minutes ago, modest said:

You might share these same criticisms for anyone who shares DPS numbers in the Pylon thread or any other thread on the forums without providing video evidence.

Yes, if somebody posted a pylon time that did not seem believable, I would indeed criticize them for not providing details.

[modest]

1 minute ago, Hopeling said:

Right here:

The sentence that you wrote literally does not exist in that post. Or I'm blind. Please quote the sentence exactly. There is nothing even remotely similar to what you wrote:

23 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

For example, the very first response you got was Tsuko asking how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel

Tsuko did not ask how I got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel. Her only mention of Corruptors is when she talks about how /Storm Summoning is good "when stars align". And I agreed with her assessment.

 

Please quote the exact sentence where you found that question.

5 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Yes, if somebody posted a pylon time that did not seem believable, I would indeed criticize them for not providing details.

Again, 400 DPS on a Fire Blast/ blaster is not unbelievable. It's average. It's basically dead average for a 50+3 blaster with ATOs and some purple sets 5 slotted.

[Obitus]

10 minutes ago, modest said:

Again, do you think that this is a constructive way to communicate? I did not "have to have the value of procs and fast snipes explained to me". I changed the 4 damage procs that I was using in Char to two procs + two acc/damage hamidon (nucleolus) enhancements at @Sovera's recommendation. Do you understand how the way that you write might come across as abrasive, at least partially because you misconstrue what others say?

My first reply to you was perfectly polite, then you hit me with a smug response about how you had provided "evidence" and I hadn't.  Then you started lecturing me about being behind the times on the mechanics, all while doubling down on your original, silly claim that a Fire Blaster using your old attack chain could do 427 DPS without Aim and Build Up.

 

Suffice to say that the tone policing isn't useful or constructive, nor does it help your argument.

13 minutes ago, modest said:

I mentioned above that I've changed my rotation to include Blaze, Char, and Blazing Bolt. I think I'll repeat that here for clarity. This is the third time that I've repeated that. If you ignore it this time, I'll have to conclude that you're trolling me.

Your claim was based on your original numbers, using your original attack chain (Flares-Blaze-Flares-Fireball).  The post I responded to concerned that attack chain, and so this aside about your new attack chain (based on recommendations that I also mentioned earlier in the thread) isn't relevant.

 

Or let me put it this way: until you admit that Flares-Blaze-Flares-Ball isn't going to get you to 427 DPS (without Aim or Build Up, no less), you can't swap out the goalposts like this.  So far, you've defended that number to the hilt, and you continue to do so, even when it's obvious that you're not working with a full understanding of how the mechanics work.

16 minutes ago, modest said:

Actually, if I wanted to be as condescending as you seem to want to be, I could point out that Flares slots Apocalypse and Superior Blaster's Wrath

Reread the post you quoted.  That's exactly what I said.  You can only slot Apocalypse and Blaster's Wrath once each, though, and putting them in Flares would be a terrible decision.

 

17 minutes ago, modest said:

This spreadsheet is private and can't be viewed, but if you made it public then I would find the information helpful.

My bad.  Fixed.

 

17 minutes ago, modest said:

Do you know why I added 53.5 damage for every one second? Because in your napkin math calculation, you calculated powers as if each one took one second to use. I was using your napkin math method. I agree that it's not an accurate representation which is why I specifically said that it was inaccurate. The whole process that you used to calculate that napkin math was inaccurate, and may (failed) attempt to point that out seems to have given you ammunition to criticize.

This is a misreading of what I did in my little calc earlier.  I simplified the calc because all four attacks in the chain have the same activation time (1.188s), and therefore you can just add up their DPA and divide by four.  That's what DPA is - the DPS value of a single attack ignoring recharge time.  In other words, if you had a 100 DPA attack with zero recharge timer, spamming it over and over forever would yield 100 DPS.

 

Go ahead and calculate it yourself if you don't believe me.  Given your numbers in that particular post, you end up with 211 DPS no matter how you slice it.

 

I did not assume that all of your attacks took 1 second.  In a different post, I did refer to a 1s activation time, but only because I was calculating proc chances; the PPM system doesn't acknowledge Arcanatime.  In fact if you use Arcanatime when you calculate proc chance, you'll (slightly) overestimate your proc values.

20 minutes ago, modest said:

Is it your position that Fire/Atomic blasters simply cannot achieve 400+ DPS from a single target rotation? Again, if that's your argument, then we can agree to disagree.

I'm the one who mentioned Nihilii's Pylon scores, earlier.  Of course I acknowledge that it's possible for a Fire/Atomic Blaster to score over 400 DPS.  But not with your original attack chain, and I think even @nihilii might say that his Blaster build compromised on survivability - which isn't as big an issue for Sentinels. 

 

He's also an extraordinary player.  FWIW, my best score with a similarly built, ranged-only Fire/Temporal Blaster, using the same attack chain (comprised primarily of procced out Char, fast snipe, and Blaze), doesn't quite reach 400 DPS.  That's probably because I skipped out on -RES procs (hard to incorporate them and soft-cap Defense), but also probably because I can't execute quite as well as he can.  Regardless, 400+ DPS is an exceedingly high number, even for a Blaster; it almost requires melee attacks.  Maybe I overreacted a bit to your original claim because I spent so much time over the years marinating in attack chains, and I know that the chain you posted originally is pedestrian.

 

The key issue here is that you keep suggesting not just that 400+ DPS is possible for a Fire Blaster, but rather that it's easy.  And I agree that if your original chain could achieve 400+ DPS, and particularly without Aim or Build Up, then that would mean it's easy.  But sadly your original chain can't even sniff those numbers.  Most any ranged Blaster build will fail to reach them.

 

34 minutes ago, modest said:

If it were that simple, then we would have a lot more Sentinels posting Pylon times that were ~85% of the times that Blasters can achieve. Instead, we have one player who has managed that.

How many samples do we really have, though?  Very few people have ever played a Sentinel, much less taken one up against a Pylon.  Few people have Pyloned even their Blasters since Homecoming's public release.  And that thread has a selection bias towards extremely high-end or hardcore players, more so than we even did on the live servers, because tepid or casual fans of the game are less likely to chase down a player-run instance of a long-dead MMO to begin with.

 

I fixed on Nihilii's Blaster and Sentinel scores in part because they're extraordinary, but also because they offer the best available like-to-like comparison.  They use very similar attack chains, similar slotting schemes, and they're piloted by the same player, so there's no skill gap to speak of.  In that comparison, we come away with the Sentinel's best score at 401 DPS, and the Blaster's best score at 519.  401 / 519 = 77.26%.

 

That's before we get into more practical issues, like the Sentinel having more breathing room to blast away without care.  I'm afraid that if you want to prove a two-fold advantage for the Blaster, you're gonna have to do better than you have.

[Rathulfr]

Wow. Just... wow.  So much hostility in this thread.  I'm surprised at my Sentinel siblings for their vitriol.

 

It seems to me that we need to apply some peer review or scientific methods here.  @modest said he built and equipped some chars on Justin, and got certain results.  Rather than just arguing with him (in some cases, attacking him), it seems to me that the best thing to do would be for the skeptics to reproduce his experiments to see if they get different results.  If so, come back and report those.

 

@modest, could you post your builds, your rotation, and your targets for us to try it ourselves?   Thanks.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Obitus]

26 minutes ago, modest said:

You might share these same criticisms for anyone who shares DPS numbers in the Pylon thread or any other thread on the forums without providing video evidence.

To echo Hopeling, I think you vastly underestimate our collective skepticism.  If someone posted a Pylon score of 427 DPS using your original Fire Blaster attack chain, and then claimed not to use Aim/BU to boot, people would laugh him out of the thread.

 

Tell you what, post a full build export.  Then we can compare/contrast with in-game numbers if you're concerned that Mid's is inaccurate (as it frequently is).  At least we'll have some way of evaluating where your numbers come from.

[Hopeling]

38 minutes ago, modest said:

The sentence that you wrote literally does not exist in that post. Or I'm blind. Please quote the sentence exactly. There is nothing even remotely similar to what you wrote:

I... just did. Here it is again:

On 9/8/2019 at 3:17 PM, Tsuko said:

Using the same terrible rotation (Blaze / flares / fireball) on both sentinel and coruptor, how do you end up with more dps on the corupter than the sentinel ?

Actually, I just noticed that I wrote it the wrong way above: I said "...Tsuko asking how you got less damage for a Corruptor than a Sentinel", rather than "more", stating the comparison the wrong way around by mistake. If this is the entire point of confusion, I apologize for the error.

40 minutes ago, modest said:

Again, 400 DPS on a Fire Blast/ blaster is not unbelievable. It's average. It's basically dead average for a 50+3 blaster with ATOs and some purple sets 5 slotted.

Right, and again, it's not unbelievable for that AT and powerset combo, but it is unbelievable for that specific chain under those specific  conditions.

[modest]

54 minutes ago, Obitus said:

My first reply to you was perfectly polite, then you hit me with a smug response about how you had provided "evidence" and I hadn't.  Then you started lecturing me about being behind the times on the mechanics, all while doubling down on your original, silly claim that a Fire Blaster using your old attack chain could do 427 DPS without Aim and Build Up.

 

Suffice to say that the tone policing isn't useful or constructive, nor does it help your argument.

Your claim was based on your original numbers, using your original attack chain (Flares-Blaze-Flares-Fireball).  The post I responded to concerned that attack chain, and so this aside about your new attack chain (based on recommendations that I also mentioned earlier in the thread) isn't relevant.

It's possible that your hostile tone is/was unintentional. The manner in which you write comes across as unnecessarily abrasive, and I responded poorly to that. I've already apologized for my tone. I'll apologize again.

54 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Or let me put it this way: until you admit that Flares-Blaze-Flares-Ball isn't going to get you to 427 DPS (without Aim or Build Up, no less), you can't swap out the goalposts like this.  So far, you've defended that number to the hilt, and you continue to do so, even when it's obvious that you're not working with a full understanding of how the mechanics work.

Reread the post you quoted.  That's exactly what I said.  You can only slot Apocalypse and Blaster's Wrath once each, though, and putting them in Flares would be a terrible decision.

I would have to recreate my old build to test this damage chain again. Frankly, I think that you and others are correct that Flares --> Blaze --> Flares --> Fireball won't achieve 427 DPS without Aim or Build Up. That was the number that I arrived at when I tested it on Justin. It's 100% possible that I had Ionize (build up) or Aim on auto fire and didn't notice it, or some other dumb mistake that skewed my results.

 

54 minutes ago, Obitus said:

I did not assume that all of your attacks took 1 second.  In a different post, I did refer to a 1s activation time, but only because I was calculating proc chances; the PPM system doesn't acknowledge Arcanatime.  In fact if you use Arcanatime when you calculate proc chance, you'll (slightly) overestimate your proc values.

I misinterpreted what you wrote regarding the 1s activation time. That was my mistake.

 

54 minutes ago, Obitus said:

The key issue here is that you keep suggesting not just that 400+ DPS is possible for a Fire Blaster, but rather that it's easy.  And I agree that if your original chain could achieve 400+ DPS, and particularly without Aim or Build Up, then that would mean it's easy.  But sadly your original chain can't even sniff those numbers.  Most any ranged Blaster build will fail to reach them.

Would it help if I posted a build and then you tested it independently? I feel that this would allow you to check the DPS of my build. I have made some changes as recommended by @Sovera.

 

Positron Cell and Electron Shackles are slotted for set bonuses, but I don't really use them. I use a second build for soloing that deals less DPS. I can post that build too if it would be helpful.

 

Fireball is used at the end of the chain if/when things don't recharge in time and/or I don't need to take a moment to click Aim/Ionize.

 

Try Blaze --> Blazing Bolt --> Char as an attack chain with Negatron Slam or Fireball used if no other attack and Aim/Ionize aren't recharged.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Modest Flame Atomic: Level 50 Natural Blaster
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Atomic Manipulation
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Flame Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1:    Flares    
 (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
 (43) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
 (43) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
 (45) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (45) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
 (45) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 1:    Electron Shackles    
 (A) Superior Defiant Barrage - Accuracy/Damage
 (46) Superior Defiant Barrage - Damage/RechargeTime
 (48) Superior Defiant Barrage - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
 (48) Superior Defiant Barrage - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
 (48) Superior Defiant Barrage - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
 (50) Superior Defiant Barrage - RechargeTime/+Status

Level 2:    Fire Ball    
 (A) Blaster's Wrath - Accuracy/Damage
 (3) Blaster's Wrath - Damage/Recharge
 (3) Blaster's Wrath - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (5) Blaster's Wrath - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
 (5) Blaster's Wrath - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
 (7) Blaster's Wrath - Recharge/Chance for Fire Damage

Level 4:    Negatron Slam    
 (A) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
 (11) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (13) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge
 (13) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
 (15) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
 (15) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 6:    Positron Cell    
 (A) Lockdown - Accuracy/Hold
 (7) Lockdown - Accuracy/Recharge
 (9) Lockdown - Recharge/Hold
 (9) Lockdown - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
 (11) Lockdown - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
 (17) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold

Level 8:    Super Jump    
 (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
 (17) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 10:    Ionize    
 (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up

Level 12:    Aim    
 (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge

Level 14:    Hasten    
 (A) Recharge Reduction IO
 (23) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16:    Combat Jumping    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
 (31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
 (31) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 18:    Blaze    
 (A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
 (19) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (19) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
 (21) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
 (21) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
 (23) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 20:    Metabolic Acceleration    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (34) Numina's Convalesence - Endurance/Recharge
 (37) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge
 (37) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
 (40) Numina's Convalesence - Heal
 (42) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 22:    Stealth    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed

Level 24:    Kick    
 (A) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 26:    Blazing Bolt    
 (A) Sting of the Manticore - Accuracy/Damage
 (27) Sting of the Manticore - Damage/Endurance
 (27) Sting of the Manticore - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
 (29) Sting of the Manticore - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
 (29) Sting of the Manticore - Damage/Interrupt/Recharge
 (31) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 28:    Tough    
 (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
 (42) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
 (42) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist

Level 30:    Weave    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
 (43) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 32:    Inferno    
 (A) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
 (33) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (33) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
 (33) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
 (34) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
 (34) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 35:    Char    
 (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
 (36) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
 (36) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
 (36) Gladiator's Net - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
 (37) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 38:    Radioactive Cloud    
 (A) Lockdown - Accuracy/Hold
 (39) Lockdown - Accuracy/Recharge
 (39) Lockdown - Recharge/Hold
 (39) Lockdown - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
 (40) Lockdown - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
 (40) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold

Level 41:    Fire Shield    
 (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
 (46) Aegis - Resistance
 (46) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance

Level 44:    Invisibility    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed

Level 47:    Phase Shift    
 (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 49:    Rise of the Phoenix    
 (A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb

Level 1:    Brawl    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Defiance    
Level 1:    Prestige Power Dash    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Slide    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Quick    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Rush    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Surge    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Sprint    
 (A) Celerity - +Stealth

Level 2:    Rest    
 (A) Empty

Level 4:    Ninja Run    
Level 2:    Swift    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Health    
 (A) Miracle - +Recovery
 (25) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance

Level 2:    Hurdle    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Stamina    
 (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
 (25) Performance Shifter - EndMod

Level 50:    Musculature Core Paragon    
Level 50:    Pyronic Core Final Judgement    
Level 50:    Degenerative Core Flawless Interface    
Level 50:    Banished Pantheon Radial Superior Ally    
Level 50:    Ageless Core Epiphany    
Level 50:    Assault Radial Embodiment    
------------

 

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Edited September 10, 2019 by modest
I noticed that the Chance of Damage (Toxic) proc was missing from Blazing Bolt.

[modest]

31 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

@modest, could you post your builds, your rotation, and your targets for us to try it ourselves?   Thanks.

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Obitus said:

Tell you what, post a full build export.  Then we can compare/contrast with in-game numbers if you're concerned that Mid's is inaccurate (as it frequently is).  At least we'll have some way of evaluating where your numbers come from.

You're both ahead of me! You replied while I was typing out a reply to @Obitus. I posted my build in the previous post. I'm happy to upload the .mdx file if the import doesn't work.

 

As I said, I have a second build that I use for soloing.

[Haijinx]

Think you need to be careful using pylon times as absolute indicators of an ATs relative ST damage.

 

Especially if you include profs with heavy debuffs.  

 

Unless you are hunting pylons i guess.  

 

 

[Rathulfr]

10 minutes ago, modest said:

 

You're both ahead of me! You replied while I was typing out a reply to @Obitus. I posted my build in the previous post. I'm happy to upload the .mdx file if the import doesn't work.

 

As I said, I have a second build that I use for soloing.

Thanks for the Blaster build.  What about the Sentinel build?  I want to make sure we can get data sets from both.

[Haijinx]

A sent is definitely more tough than the toughest blasters before figuring in mitigating factors .. like CC .. lower engagement times from damage, etc.  

 

A tough blaster is maybe capped to S/L/E and ranged with 30 S/L resist and sort of status protect.  That would make a poor sent secondary.  

[natewest1987]

Sooo.  That was 🍿, but did we arrive at a conclusion re: why sentinels over blasters?? I really want an excuse to make a sentinel for farming 

[modest]

Just now, Rathulfr said:

Thanks for the Blaster build.  What about the Sentinel build?  I want to make sure we can get data sets from both.

Good idea. I'll dig it up. Keep in mind that this is an old build and there are things that I would do differently if I were to remake this character. e.g. I would focus on capping ranged defense rather than chasing pure damage.

 

Looking at this build now, I still think that it should have done more damage. I wonder if the lower DPS was due to the lack of Build Up.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Humble Flame: Level 50 Science Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1:    Flares    
 (A) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage
 (3) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Damage/RechargeTime
 (3) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
 (5) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
 (5) Superior Sentinel's Ward - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
 (7) Superior Sentinel's Ward - RechargeTime/Chance for +Absorb

Level 1:    Hardened Carapace    
 (A) Aegis - Resistance
 (13) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
 (13) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
 (36) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%

Level 2:    Fire Blast    
 (A) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage
 (23) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Damage/RechargeTime
 (25) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/RechargeTime
 (25) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
 (27) Superior Opportunity Strikes - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
 (27) Superior Opportunity Strikes - RechargeTime/Chance for Opportunity

Level 4:    Inexhaustible    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
 (15) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (15) Numina's Convalesence - Endurance/Recharge
 (17) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge
 (17) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
 (19) Numina's Convalesence - Heal

Level 6:    Blaze    
 (A) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
 (7) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
 (9) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (9) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
 (11) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
 (11) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 8:    Aim    
 (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
 (46) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
 (48) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
 (48) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
 (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
 (50) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance

Level 10:    Adaptation    
Level 12:    Super Jump    
 (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range
 (21) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 14:    Hasten    
 (A) Recharge Reduction IO
 (23) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16:    Fire Ball    
 (A) Ragnarok - Damage
 (29) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
 (29) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (31) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
 (31) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
 (31) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)

Level 18:    Environmental Adaptation    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
 (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
 (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
 (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge

Level 20:    Rebuild DNA    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (34) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge

Level 22:    Ablative Carapace    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (39) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge

Level 24:    Kick    
 (A) Empty

Level 26:    Tough    
 (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
 (37) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
 (37) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance/Rech/End
 (40) Gladiator's Armor - Recharge/Endurance
 (40) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
 (46) Gladiator's Armor - Recharge/Resist

Level 28:    Athletic Regulation    
 (A) HamiO:Microfilament Exposure

Level 30:    Weave    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
 (40) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 32:    Inferno    
 (A) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
 (33) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
 (33) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
 (33) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
 (34) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
 (34) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage

Level 35:    Genomic Evolution    
 (A) Aegis - Resistance
 (36) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
 (36) Aegis - Psionic/Status Resistance

Level 38:    Fire Cages    
 (A) Trap of the Hunter - Accuracy/Recharge
 (43) Trap of the Hunter - Endurance/Immobilize
 (43) Trap of the Hunter - Accuracy/Endurance
 (45) Trap of the Hunter - Immobilize/Accuracy
 (45) Trap of the Hunter - Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge
 (45) Trap of the Hunter - Chance of Damage(Lethal)

Level 41:    Char    
 (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
 (42) Ghost Widow's Embrace - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
 (42) Neuronic Shutdown - Chance of Damage(Psionic)
 (42) Gladiator's Net - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
 (43) Gladiator's Javelin - Chance of Damage(Toxic)

Level 44:    Maneuvers    
 (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
 (46) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 47:    Parasitic Leech    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (48) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge

Level 49:    Warmth    
 (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
 (50) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge

Level 1:    Defensive Adaptation    
Level 1:    Brawl    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Dash    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Slide    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Quick    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Rush    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Prestige Power Surge    
 (A) Empty

Level 1:    Sprint    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Rest    
 (A) Empty

Level 4:    Ninja Run    
Level 2:    Swift    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Health    
 (A) Miracle - +Recovery
 (19) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance

Level 2:    Hurdle    
 (A) Empty

Level 2:    Stamina    
 (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
 (21) Performance Shifter - EndMod

Level 50:    Musculature Core Paragon    
Level 50:    Degenerative Core Flawless Interface    
Level 50:    Clarion Core Epiphany    
Level 50:    Assault Radial Embodiment    
Level 10:    Efficient Adaptation    
Level 10:    Offensive Adaptation    
------------

 

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[Sovera]

Wow, I go to bed and this just explodes.

 

With Justin still down for testing this is not really possible, but the ultimate put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is is to simply head there, stock up on purple and greens inspirations, do a pylon run (not because it matters but to be used as a reference) and come back saying the time it took to kill it and the rotation/buffs used.

 

Once that is done we can dissect a build and see *why* it got the times it got, which was how we collectively got to epic pool Holds being such godnabbit proc holders that improved on builds.

 

Doing math to predict results is nice and it sort of works, but not when assumptions are made or small errors start creeping up unnoticed. A nice empirical test clears all nay saying and assumptions. It's why @Sir Myshkin's work in proc monsters is so *amazing*. He does not just sit down with a calculator and assume but he goes out there and tests for hours and then relates the empirical results he got, to then build on them.

 

Edit: I'm reminded of the spreadsheet that was going around for a while when Homecoming started. The guy was trying to see which sets did the most damage and it started being taken as gospel despite voices questioning things like, where, exactly, would *anyone* manage to run at recharge cap, outside of a MSR, so how feasible were the conditions for the numbers he was putting on display and that were starting to be parroted around, or how the rotations used to decide the damage of a set were not optimal (and probably not even taking -res procs into consideration which some sets can use and others not).

 

Empirical.... data.... 4thewin!

Edited September 10, 2019 by Sovera