Greycat

I wouldn't want them rotated - I'm typically looking for consistency. But different ones being added wouldn't be bad. As far as animations and such (and we need some new dances, too...) it's all up to what the dev team can do.

*Reads title.* No. *Reads initial post* Still no. Yes, something more needs to be done with the "How do I make Group Fly not affect me" - honestly, if the token that's granted could be automatically granted on sets/powers that must have ground or near-ground contact, it'd probably fix ... 70%ish of the complaints. (With the option to toggle it off, still.) It's not obvious, it's not explained, it's not convenient when you're - say - in a raid zone. Other than that? Flight pool's fine.

The only problem with the Warburg nuke - hate to say "mission" - is that the scientists are obviously the dumbest scientists on Earth, as ramps are insanely difficult for them to figure out. Other than that - which is a problem with most NPCs - it doesn't really need to be made easier or buffed. Though the suggestion of two more for the other origins seems interesting.

Not reading through 8 pages of this... Honestly, it'd be nice if: (A) the options at Null were more widely known, and (B) Null were available in more zones. At the very least in the raid zones, where you often don't *want* to leave the zone because you might not get back in. (Or, (C) which apparently can't happen/is exceedingly difficult due to spaghetti, the option were in the player's options menu.)

I'll say I've gotten to appreciate "mouse mats" more - when the thing's also under your keyboard, probably part of your monitor as well, it's not going *anywhere.*

... but to run DBZ missions, you have to have flight, float in the air and scream for half an hour while glowing before launching an attack. Having a costume with a change of hair color helps.

I'm done with a character when I'm done with their story. Might be done at 20, might be done years after hitting 50. Might not be done any time in the forseeable future.

*nod* It's ... had to be mentioned many times. It's also why I try to refer to the power pools that unlock at (now) 35 as "ancillary" and not "epic," because they use ... as I recall, kind of the D&D definition of "epic ability/level" there!

... see the Patron missions. Hey, hey, now, this is a T-for-teen rated game... 😉

So we've all seen the question, "I want to get into RP, how do I start" by any number of new users - or just people who've played and want to try RP. What about the mirror of that? I have, in the past, co-led a fairly sizable RP SG. We had literal years of history - between SG RP and AEs with ongoing story lines, personal storylines that went back before and twined into the group... if I wrote a book on what we'd done and everything leading up to it, Tolkein would be going "... that's a bit much, isn't it?" And I *know* this was an issue, because we had people join - or decide not to after a "get to know you" period - just telling me "it's just too much to try to wrap my head around." Now, obviously some of this was some of them feeling they had to know *everything,* diving in headfirst to see the connections and such rather than gradually working in and getting a feel - but on the other, there was still a valid point there. We had a *lot* of history. The founding of the group itself tied into some of the leaders' backstories (as far as why some things were the way they were,) and those stretched *way* back. It would take a lot of time to get to know even just all the "relevant now" stuff, and that can be daunting (and that fish-out-of-water feeling isn't pleasant for some.) As I'm looking at some of my - not even SGs, necessarily, but even just character groups - I think I'm getting there again. So what do you do when your RP lore gets to that point? I do have one group that's a generational successor (not "their kids," but just the next batch that inherited the mantle) of an old group. For them, it makes it somewhat easier as we introduce a few new people - it also doesn't hurt we only really meet once a week for SG stuff - to just have "well, this is a new chapter of this group's story" as a thing. We can point stuff out, "we have this because of the original group," and that's good - they don't have to know about this giant threat they dealt with, or those wacky interdimensional hijinks, or any of the years of other stuff the first group did. There's a dedicated cutoff point, and we have exactly one character who can act as a bridge between the two if needed (rarely is, other than a cameo of being checked up on.) But that's not really feasable for other groups. So, if you've had a group like that, where if a new person wants to join and asks what the group's done, they're potentially facing the Library of the Legion's Lore... what have you done to make it less daunting and more welcoming?

My two cents? I've played with AI a little. For image generation... blah. Just not fond of it. I've wanted to see what it would do with a character description and had it decide "purple hair" meant a purple superbikini outfit and get "hung up" on that to the point of extreme annoyance... that's without going into the whole "what it was trained on and who has rights to it" thing. For writing - well, I write. I have ideas. Reading what AI comes up with is... obviously AI. Even the "good" ones seem to have an AI feel. HOWEVER, if you don't use it as a text generator, but an *idea* generator... well, I don't know if anyone ever used the "They fight crime!" website. It (or one of them) used to just take a list of words, slap them together into two... fairly unlikely "buddy cop" type partners and spit it out. Some friends and I used this to create a group, even. I don't remember what the full result was, but we had "He's a fast talking werewolf sorcerer with a robot buddy named Sparky, fleeing from a secret government program. She's a (something, it could spit out things like "a grizzled demonic fashionista with a taste for fast cars." I don't remember what the actual prompt was.) Together, they fight crime!" ... if anyone met Lucky Murphy, well, yeah. That's where he came from. I'd say "Don't use AI to do the work," but if you want to use it to come up with prompts, be they for characters, just busting through writer's block, etc? For *that* I tend to see it as an evolved version of that same site. "I have a story about a fireball-weilding hero who must save someone, but cannot use his powers or innocents will be harmed. I need to introduce a group to assist him with this. Give me ten prompts of paragraph length with ways to approach this." Then pick and choose, facepalm, share for laughs...

Hmm. Thanks. I remembered the Primalist, but I wasn't sure that they'd be an Epic or if they were being looked at as a normal (or, from the last little section, possibly a "premium" or paid) AT. I'm not sure what they'd be tied into with lore. I'd love to find out just what they were planned as - "normal" (which, with that complexity, I doubt,) Epic (with what storyline? Inquiring minds want to know!) or Premium (got to get that money after all that work!) For now, I'm going to edit and stick them in under "premium" unless/until there's more info. When I read the term "hyper-advanced Clockwork," it read to me more like a description than "this is the name we're settled on." Can tweak that, certainly. Thanks for the info! And @Glacier Peak, given other things were mentioned as put off due to Goldside fatigue, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Which I suspect is part of why they were looking into the purchased ATs. Though it's completely up in the air as to if those would be exceptionally unbalanced or not. On the one hand, going by what we *have* and know was planned, there'd be fewer sets which would make it easier to balance than, say, a Controller (where Earth/FF, for instance, is safe but painfully slow, but Fire/Kin could be an effective farmer.) On the other... they'd want to put in some bang for the bucks. And I don't really like the way that tends to go in other games...

I think the confusion here is just the somewhat sloppy multiple game definitions of "combat." We have mechanically "in combat / out of combat" that affects long and short versions of snipe and AS. We have "I'm in a mission/my team is fighting" ... let's call it social or overall action definition of combat. Scenario: Melee prepares to engage mob of Malta. Blaster sees a Sapper - Blaster hasn't attacked anything, they're (mechanically) "out of combat" despite (socially - target picked, they're aiming at the sapper and starting the snipe) "in combat." Friendly buffer says "Missed you in the buff!" and hits blaster with buff. Buff interrupts (mechanically "out of combat") snipe that they were trying to use in (socially) combat to take out the sapper, snipe fails, END is taken anyway. (Or they hit the Stalker who was not being engaged or targeted, thus having the mechanically out-of-combat full AS while being socially in-combat while buffing the tank with an AOE buff.) Short form reword of the OP? "Don't have friendly buffs interrupt long snipe or long AS, many buffs currently do and they cost the END and time already spent." And I still want a "disable fast snipe" IO.

The final form of EATs: Purchased ATs Also just given a brief mention. Epic ATs are, as described, a lot of work. Not only are you coming up with a concept for them, the powerset(s) and related graphics and animation, but you create specific contacts and story arcs for 1-50 - that are restricted to just those ATs playing them. (Obviously you can bring teammates, but only that specific AT type can start the arcs.) There was mention in the AMAs that thought was given to just creating purchased ATs - I could see these being listed as “Premium AT” or something, with whatever unique quirk they have but no storylines involved. And I’m only giving them a brief mention because (a) no examples were given, and (b) without the storyline, they’re not really “Epic” ATs - remember, by definition they’re tied to some aspect of the story or lore. But with COH Freedom and a cash store, this (d)evolution does make sense as a direction to take “special” ATs and their availability. UPDATE: For the moment, I'm listing the Primalist here. (And a couple people have mentioned it.) I hadn't initially added it to this little discussion because I don't know if it would be an Epic AT (and don't know what bit of lore it'd be related to,) a standard AT (though as I type it here, that doesn't make a lot of sense with a single known primary/secondary) or Premium. It was essentially finished, but never implemented in game (with some pieces going to other sets,) with the AT itself being called "too complex." It's another shapeshifting AT - and I'll just point you down to @BillyMailman's post for links to City of Data for the inherent and powersets. So one more "Almost," there. (And yes, whether it has lore or not, complex or not, I'd be for having it in game, just to see what ideas and characters it would spark - especially if it doesn't have anything lorewise behind it. Just see what people come up with.)

Circle of Thorns EAT Note, we have *very* little information on this one other than a brief mention of it being an EAT in an AMA (2014.) COTEAT - I really hope they’d have a better nickname! Maybe CAT? Let the CATgirl jokes commence... Origin: Logically, Magic Side: I’m actually going to say “unknown,” even if red would make sense - because of what I think they’d have been introduced with or near. Restriction : Possibly a costume slot dedicated to COT robes. All we have on them is a mention of a “possible COT Epic.” However, we *also* have, thanks to the AMAs, a brief sketch of the reworking of the Hollows with the literal rise of Orenbanga - the Hollows would remain a low level zone, but the floating city (with its own diplomatic recognition) a high level, perhaps 50+, zone. *To me,* this would also be an ideal time to introduce the COT EAT to delve specifically into Circle of Thorns lore and politics - we know at least ONE Mage that tried to assist the heroes, and with their having to deal with Heroes, being brought into the modern age thanks to the Rikti invading their city during the first invasion, the Mu still being around as a threat and more, just on top of the bit of tragic storyline that made them what they have been for thousands of years… some may have had a more moderate view and decided to work with heroes versus being forced (side-wise) to work with villains (while being somewhat isolated in the middle of Paragon.) It’s not verified, at least that I could find, so treat the majority of the above as speculation. But I think it would have been a fascinating dive into them. Rikti EAT Origin: ? Natural? Mutation? Side: ?? Restriction: Probably form / costuming, though we know of some Rikti “plants” who look… human-ish. This is only briefly mentioned in the terms of a Rikti civil war. The True Rikti are also mentioned elsewhere in the AMA, so whether these would have been “True Rikti,” former Lost who have been mutated, even some sort of VEAT-like “Start as Lost, turn into Rikti,” we just don’t know. I’d love to dig up more information - the story possibilities are vast.

Proposed EATs For these, we really don’t have a lot of information other than a mention here or there. We're getting more into the weeds and speculation here. PEATs: Redeemed Devoured, Praetorian Clockwork Redeemed Devoured Origin: Probably Mutation Side: Likely no restriction Other restrictions: Possibly model? Quirk - 3 part inherent that seems related to Fury (see City of Data.) Praetorian Hyper-Advanced Clockwork Origin:Tech Side: Likely no restriction Other restrictions: Possibly model/costume? Does have mention in City of Data of "Android Form." Inherent - self rez. Conjecture: These may have had to start in Praetoria - it would make sense for them to do so, after all, given the name. However, as in the quote above, the Clockwork may have been used to “reboot AI/robot related storylines,” and while they do feature somewhat heavily in Praetoria, there are also quite a few dealing with the Council, Crey AIs and the like through Blueside.

Avilians Origin: Unknown Side: Hero, at least initially - just given the timeframe they were aimed at. Restrictions: Unknown, other than logically having to have wings - see below. Specialty: Wings This one’s a little bit of a stretch because I don’t know how much was actually done on them, though they do have a trace in game. There’s no specific lore I’ve dug up on them. These were initially conceived as a way to give players wings. That was their whole schtik. Then wings as ("functional" is implied here) costume pieces were figured out and the concept was dropped. In game traces: Officer Wincott mission - one of the artifacts retrieved from the Hellions is a human looking skull that’s strangely light and hollow. This would be from them.

Blood of the Black Stream Origin: Likely magic, or magic/tech. Side: Unknown, though almost all traces in game are redside. Restrictions: Unknown, probably origin. Specialty: More shapeshifting. Sean Fish (Manticore) kept pushing for this EAT to be finished and introduced into the game, and I really wish he would have succeeded.There are several interesting “hooks” for them in game as it is. Group history: The Blood of the Black Stream stretch back to Ancient Egypt. They were a group of mages who attempted to overthrow the Pharaoh and seize power by means of bribery of his followers. They were defeated by an enchanted statue sent after the Pharaoh prayed to Ra for an unshakably loyal protector. (COH website, “You are the hero” card - Ahnek Rah-Zul.) We don’t know what they’ve been doing for the intervening time, only that Gadzul Oil, an oil concern based in Egypt, is their “modern day face.” They still work to control and corrupt people in positions of power, as well as run a (“leaky”) oil refinery off the Rogue Isles. The oil is apparently more than it seems, as they try to build “the circuit.” Traces in game: Mr. Bocor, “Retrieve the journal off Padre Henry,” mentions them - the book he’s interested in, “The Journal of Padre Gerard Henri,” was a gift to “old man” Marcone they’re trying to pass to Emil Marcone now. It’s a book with the history of the island - which Gadzul Oil is also cursed in a way that allows the owner to be controlled via “the right kind of magics.” Port Oakes, Oil Spill, [785.3 227.5 1450.8] - the oil spilling from the Gadzul Oil tanker forms an Eye of Horus. Other traces - With the City of Heroes CCG, a card builder was created on the COHCCG website and a contest, “You are the hero” was run. This was won on Sept 25, 2005, by Ahnek Rak-Zul, a Tanker from the Protector server. Sean Fish tweaked the description slightly to link them directly to the Blood of the Black Stream. Other than these, we really don’t know much about them other than that they would also have been a shapeshifting AT with ancient Egyptian roots. Would we have *gone* to Egypt, ancient or otherwise? Doubtful, barring some special mission map, but I’ll admit to being interested in them since I first heard of them.

"Almost made it!" These are EATs that have some traces or other information in game, that were (or were *likely* worked on or at least seem to be solidly sketched out, but didn’t make it into the game. Nictus Side: Villain Origin: Science We don’t know what all would have happened with the Nictus. Would they have had different forms? (More “Life stealing” forms are mentioned roughly in the Kheldian backstory guide from 2004.) Been more about control? Possibly been more like masterminds? What we know or can deduce is basically from what we have in the Kheldians on hero side - we’d have likely seen the other side of the Kheldian war. How you would have interacted with Arachnos, Requiem or Arakhn is intriguing. And we know they were being worked on because of the quote from Matt Miller about wanting to work on the Incarnate EAT after finishing Nictus. These were put on the back burner - essentially scrapped - in favor of the Soldiers of Arachnos / Widows that we got. Which to me is too bad, I'd have loved to see that side of the war, and with side switching I'd think the story line would still have been viable (and/or would have been able to remove the side starting restriction from Khelds.)

Coralax AT: Coralax. (More likely “Coralax Hybrid,” Perhaps Virtea, but these would more likely be NPCs. Side: Perhaps villainside, unknown. Origin: Likely magic and/or mutation Restrictions: Unknown Likely Special: (Speculation) Possibly introducing an underwater zone, given the “pond” discovered in Grandville. The Coralax exist in game as an NPC enemy faction, mostly in City of Villains, though they do make some appearances on blue side. All non-Shapers we see are Coralax Hybrids - including Barracuda, Captain Mako’s lieutenant. The Coralax are creations of the goddess Merulina, who fell to Earth millions of years ago (COH) and made her followers from the coral of the sea. (This is the basis for the “possibly Magic origin.”) Merulina created the Shapers, the high priests and leaders of Coralax civilization, who are psychically connected to Merulina - and are confused by her recent silence. So what are Virtea? These were a peaceful aquatic race who were dominated by the Coralax by various means and serve as a slave species. (“Dominated through a combination of charm, intimidation and mental strength, the Virtea serve the will of the Coralax.”) “Pure” Coralax bodies are actually coral (“As the pollution began to degrade the very coral from which their bodies were made…” (COH) ) For an idea of what the player’s abilities might have been? Simply look at Barracuda - who was captured and changed by the Shapers. (This is where I think they *might* have been considered “mutation,” though given the change was initiated by the Shapers’ magic, I lean more towards that.) There’s at least one other trace of the Coralax from early in the game’s history - at least indirectly (after all, they were planned in 2004.) In Striga Isle, during Stephanie Peebles’ arc, you rescue some scientists that “found something” in the ocean - some sort of creature. That something was one of the Virtea. (Why the Council is interested? Not explained, but given the Nictus….) Not much else is known or easily deduced about the Coralax, sadly. I could not find many other quotes or much other information about them. Still, with them being in game as an NPC group, I feel comfortable putting them in the “Sorta in game” category. Next, the “Almosts.”

Incarnates AT: Incarnates Side: Unlikely to have been side-locked Origin: Unknown, unlikely to have been locked - or, potentially its own “origin.” Restrictions: Unknown. Incarnates - even if not known by that name - have existed in the game since its beginning. Statesman, the “central figure” heroside, was an Incarnate of Zeus. Lord Recluse, the leader of Arachnos, the villain group, is an Incarnate of Tartarus. Sstheno, in mythology a gorgon, was the leader/mother/goddess of the snake people on the Rogue Isles, and when Cimerora was introduced, Imperious was also an Incarnate - among others. Silos is mentioned in an AMA as possibly being an “Incarnate of Time.” Incarnates drew their power from, or were granted it by, the Well of the Furies - which itself has undergone some change, from early on being a vague “something” that took in Humanity’s creativity, ambition, dreams and more and occasionally opened to release it and trigger an age of heroes to being a sentient “thing.” Above Incarnates were Ascended - Prometheus, DJ Zero and Ruularu fell in here. They are around the same level as a Well. Above them are Dimensionless. In the storylines roughly sketched out (AMA 2013, 2014) after the Battalion (and True Battalion,) we’d have fought with or against them - and the Wells, then the Dimensionless, Primordials, then protected the First Primordial against the Concepts of Order and Chaos - it got nuts. Wells were supposed to be buffers between their species and the Source. Some notes have them being the Primordeals. Also, as far as wells, in the AMA 2013 discussing the Battalion, it’s mentioned Earth’s well was unique in that it would grant powers to people. (And that Mender Tesseract was a member of the Battalion.) Mechanically, Incarnates went from being an Epic AT to being a new power advancement system - in some ways adding levels without adding levels. Initial stories were based in Praetoria and, later, with the awakening and re-binding of Mot in Dark Astoria. Powers were going to continue to grow in strength, sectioned off with one “tree” growing off another. As it sits, going by “tiers” of powers (starting with the single bottom power on the “tree”), we have or would have had: (Current - see descriptions in game for these.) Set 1: Alpha Judgement/Interface (AOE or PBAOE, as well as added effects) Lore/Destiny (Pets/Buffs) Set 2: Hybrid (in game, toggle with player buffs.) Genesis (next slot, not developed - AOE buff/debuff patches.) Mind, Vitae, Omega (No description) Set 3 - at least the last set we have descriptions for (AMA 2013) Arete: Instant recharge of all powers for a period Majesty: (Confuse foes, who self destruct at the end of the confuse period) Infinity: (Player doppelgangers) Transcendence (Uniiversal immunity, can attack into Phase) Fulfillment (major PBAOE and level shifts.) Apparently the story line would have required this increasingly insane power - and/or the development of COH 2. (AMA 2013) The system was designed to not end, but it did, just like the development of these as an EAT. Whether that’s good or bad is a matter of personal taste. I don't know how the whole concept of "the prior tree would have been trivialized" (and, by extension, the player's own powers) would have been received by the playerbase. I can't imagine it would be embraced wholeheartedly. Even what we have now leads to the occasional complaint of homogenization.

“Once an Epic” - Proposed EATs that got into the game as something else. If you've played (or play) City of Heroes, those names might sound familiar. They existed in the game at shutdown. But they became something very different. One became a system to give players additional power without raising a level cap, the other was introduced as - and stayed as - an NPC villain group. So let’s take a look.

Soldiers of Arachnos / Widows - VEAT (Villain EAT) AT: Soldiers of Arachnos (SOA,) Widows Side: Villain Restrictions: Origin. Must get to 50. First costume slot dedicated to Arachnos uniform costume. Gender (SOA: Male, Widow: Female) Features: Branching mechanic at 24. Leadership equivalent in power pools. When City of Villains was released, player characters were rescued from the Ziggursky penitentiary by Arachnos, one of the primary villain groups run by Lord Recluse, friend-turned-rival to Statesman. This was done due to a prophecy about a Destined One who would aid Arachnos’s goals. But what about the rank-and-file troops, passed over and sacrificed to help these super-powered villains out of prison, just to dump them in their home, the Rogue Isles? The VEAT lets you take on the role of one of them, taking your destiny into your own hands and letting you compete to become a Destined One… or so you think, discovering partway through your journey that your attempts were essentially allowed for the amusement of Lord Recluse. These were given a “branching” mechanic. You would initially start out as a Soldier or Widow at level 1. At level 24, you were put into a forced respec (which was, and still is, very annoying) and had to pick a path. For the Soldiers, you would pick either a Crab Spider - an armored fighter with a backpack from which four mechanical weapons arms emerged - or a Bane Spider, a stealthy melee fighter. Widows would either become Night Widows - vicious melee fighters - or Fortunata, more psychic ranged attackers. The storyline is.. Eh, rather uninspiring, even insulting at times, and I don’t know of many who’ve even mentioned playing it more than once (at least past the level 10 arc which unlocked a costume slot.) VEATs were more (in)famous for double-stacking Leadership. Leadership is a power pool with toggles to provide a buff to the defense, to-hit and damage of you and your team. VEATs got these as part of their native powerset, and the Leadership power pool was not locked out - so if you could stomach the endurance cost to run them all, you could have fairly powerful team buffs, and if you had multiple VEATs doing this… Yes, these were initially locked by gender, for reasons gone into in a story arc by Weston Phipps dealing with how the types were trained. Females went into the Widows, males went into the Bane Spiders - specifically because of the mental link / hive mind the Banes developed. There was also a longstanding bug regarding the Crab Spiders. For their powers, they required a backpack to be permanently attached with four mechanical weapon arms. City of Heroes allowed multiple builds on a character, and VEATs could pick the other path on the other build. If you did so on a SOA, though, and one build was the Crab, the other build could not get rid of the weapon arm backpack costume piece.

The Living EATs These are Epics that actually made it into game as playable, 1-50 Epic ATs, complete with story arcs. If you can pick them at character creation, they’re here. Note that the restrictions I mentioned are those at release - the level and origin restrictions were relaxed later, either on live or on “successor” servers. Kheldians / HEAT ATs: Peacebringer, Warshade Side: Heroic Restrictions: Origin (Peacebringer, Natural. Warshade, Science.) Side: Hero (cannot start villain, though you can side switch.) Originally locked out of Flight and Teleport pools. Features: Form shifting. Custom enemies (Quantum gunners, Void Hunters.) Released in Issue 3 on live (“A Council of War,”) Kheldians are an extragalactic race which can copy and reproduce the form of their hosts. Their hosts get new abilities while the Kheldians can extend their lives. The Kheldians fight a galaxy spanning war against their former rulers, once called Science Lords, now called Nictus, which was sparked after the Kheldians were directed to conquer and enslave an empire only to find it was essentially a cover for the Nictus, who had altered themselves via science, to drain the Kheldians’ life and extend their own. On Earth, the Nictus hiding there formed the Path of the Dark in Ravenna, Italy, and later become leaders in the Council, creating soldiers with powers similar to their own while plotting to conquer and convert the planet. The Peacebringers arrive during the Rikti war to put a stop to them, finding unexpected aid in rebel Nictus who don’t agree with their kin - the Warshades. The Kheldian ATs are known for shape shifting to fill multiple roles on a team, and handle their powers in very different ways tied to the lore. Later revisions on Live and the Homecoming servers first lowered, then removed the level to unlock Kheldians (also purchasable as an unlock with the coming of COH: Freedom, when the game went free to play.) The origin restrictions and power pool restrictions were also unlocked, though (in my opinion) the origin restriction was perfectly appropriate. The starting side is also set, though you bypass the tutorial and can side switch if desired.