TygerDarkstorm

These changes might not be impactful at level 50, but the vast majority of the game is not played at level 50. Most of the game happens while leveling, and these changes are noticeable and hurt casual players, people using SO's/common IOs, and certain AT/powerset combos unproportionally. As of my last round of beta testing, my Plant/Marine Controller at level 20 took the same amount of time to kill even leveled Council mobs as my Elec/Sonic Controller did (also at level 20) to kill +1 mobs. I need to go test a wider variety of AT's/Powersets, but I'm time limited. I understand the change from a dev point of view, but it's not feeling fun as a player, especially a sub-50 non-twinked player. I shouldn't have to get the START attacks just to make sure I can out-damage mob regen and beating on a mob for a longer period of time doesn't make the gameplay more fun.

Mobs had their regen buffed this patch too along with tanker damage taking a nerf. 😞

I love this idea--mo options, mo better. Also, the tip of the staff doesn't have to be stabby to be effective--most staff options don't have a pointy bit on the end of them. You hit someone in the diaphragm with the end of a staff and you're going to knock the air out of them, even if it's blunt. You're also narrowing the area of impact, thus essentially being able to hit harder/do more damage even with the blunted in if you put enough force behind the jab. I don't think that having a scythe means you'd have to only be hitting with the blade piece--the entire thing is a weapon.

I want to say True Pseudopets are also not as procable due to pseudopet behavior, but don't quote me on that. It does appear they brought them in line to respect AT modifiers. I don't play Fire Control much on live at the moment, has anyone tested to see how bad this change feels for controllers (if it does feel bad) on beta?

To which I have and have posted feedback as such. Elec Control got a huge buff this page, but Plant plays noticeably slower. And as I said, tankers are reporting their comparisons in their feedback thread and generally showing slower clear times compared to live. I based what I said off of testing.

That's because high damage AT's and folks geared to the nines won't really feel this change. But for AT's like controllers and tankers (from what I'm seeing in the tanker feedback thread), there is a noticeable difference. Mobs take longer to defeat, especially if you're on a nerfed set. It's not impossible, but it's annoying and punishing casual players and players who run on SOs and common IOs. It's also kind of a weird change because this game is no longer for profit and doesn't need arbitrary means of getting people to sink their time into it to play. I also think it's weird to add this on at the same time as they're making sweeping AT/powerset changes, which makes it harder to test and give feedback when it's difficult to know if something you're having an issue with could be do to the powerset/AT change or due to the critter change.

Just since I know not all of our members check other areas of the forums, I highly recommend y'all to at least read the patch notes for the new update that's currently in Open Beta testing: If you have time to test out some of the changes, I recommend it, as quite a few sets got massive overhauls, even if you don't post feedback, it may be worth it to see these changes for yourself before they hit live.

To be fair, in that post of mine you're quoting, you're missing where I later on determined I was gimping myself by not having taken Roots (thanks again @Wavicle for pointing out my error), which dramatically increased my performance. Plant still feels slower than Electric Control, but I don't think it's in an utterly horrible place right now and feel the changes give it a lot of build variety as all powers are not needed to be effective. Not saying there's not changes I'd like to see. It would be nice to see Plant get a damage bump and for something to be done about Spirit Tree, but I've said my bit on that and don't want to go in circles on it. I just wanted to point out that this quote of mine is "outdated" in the sense that shortly after I corrected an error that smoothed out the play experience.

Can't say I've seen a reasoning for it in the patch notes unless I looked it over. It is a noticeable difference in kill time, but not drastically so after I've spent more time in testing and corrected a dumb mistake I made on my plant controller. I still don't understand why this change needed to be made since it's not a for profit game anymore, so increasing our time spent in game is kind of a moot point. And it's still a change that punishes average/casual players than people who twink, play high damage characters, etc.

Yes, I have noticed this--I noted it a bit in my first feedback post I believe and I'll reiterate here after playing with it again last night that I don't think Spore Burst feels very sticky. If it goes live as is, I'd probably considered still skipping it in my build (at least on my plant/marine controller). Both Elec Control and Arsenal's sleep patches feel better. I agree with this--why are you testing a control set against mobs that are notoriously control resistant? This seems like you're setting the changes up for failure. I played Plant on a controller against Council and Tuatha and while the defeating is slower and I do think Plant can use a damage buff, Plant does not feel nearly as horrible as folks are trying to make out, especially when they're testing against mobs control doesn't work on anyway. The new plant plays fine, it was fun, and I like that there's some options for power picks for build variety. Also, devs, Spirit Tree needs better taunt or this power basically remains a solid skip. At no point in my testing has this thing managed to keep mobs from attacking me, even before I've launched any offensive against them (e.g., I dropped it to break the alpha and just walking closer to the mobs turned their attention to me over the tree, let alone if I'm starting to layer controls on them.

Some thoughts from jumping up to level 30 before I go to bed: Getting Creepers and Fly Trap definitely made a huge difference and sped up the killing process. I thought the Fly Trap felt useful in terms of damage contribution--when it's engaged with the mobs, I kill things quite a bit faster than without it. I'm not sure if Fly Trap's AI needs to be adjusted? It frequently followed me into the middle of mobs instead of staying at range. I'm not sure if that's because as Marine I'm jumping into melee or if it's the AI not keeping it at range until combat is over. I've never proc'd out creepers, so I can't comment to that change for them--I thought when they were out they felt similar to live. I didn't find much use for spirit tree--I actually do think there's some build flexibility with the new plant. I could probably comfortably drop spirit and either seeds or spore burst. Killing things is slower, but not awful by any means once you finally get your full kit. While I do kind of wish the duration of seeds was a tad longer, I don't hate these changes as much after playing with them more and I was honestly having fun on my plant/marine troller.

Don't be dumb like me kids; take Roots. I don't even really know why I skipped it, but don't be like me. That made a huge difference in being able to take out a spawn and puts my Plant troller a lot closer to my Elec controller at the same level. It still seems a tad slow against even level mobs (I still think my Elec is killing faster), but definitely not as slog-like. So, for other testing feedback: I like the new adaptive recharge for Seeds--it feels much better to play with, especially when you're running at smaller team sizes like I tend to do with solo. I also kind of like that you don't have to rely on Seeds as the crutch of the entire Plant Control set. I still think Spirit Tree needs work--the regen part seems fine; my health does pretty well when near it in the middle of a mob, however, this thing is not able to keep aggro from me whatsoever; I have yet to see the mobs be more interested in it than myself, and perhaps this is because I don't use it to take an alpha strike. I will bump this character up again so I can test Creepers now that they're not bugged.

Yep, respeccing into it now since I realized skipping it was a mistake.

I used a combination of the below powers; this was before build 2 though, so I do need to test with the build 2 changes, I've just been short on time. Since I logged in the Plant/Marine for this screenshot, I'll go ahead and toy with it some more. Everything is just auto-slotted with common IOs. To be clear: My Plant/Marine can mostly contain things safely and take them out, it just felt like it was quite a bit more time consuming than it would be on live for even level mobs. It felt like playing my live Arsenal/Marine controller--he doesn't kill things quickly, but he does it in utter safety. Edit: Sorry, it's also worth mentioning both controllers were being played at +0/x2 and the only thing that slowed the Elec down was the +1 mobs in my mission. Off to play with the Plant/Marine again. Edit: Still noticeably slower, though I suspect skipping roots isn't helping, so I'll respec into that.

After testing an Elec/Sonic controller at level 20, Plant at this level feels reeeeeeaaaallly sluggish. I thought it might be the critter changes, but my Elec controller, while defeating slower, doesn't feel nearly as drastic as the Plant/Marine I was testing. Please consider giving plant some sort of damage boost or something. Electric Control feels great to play on Beta, while Plant decidedly does not. Keep in mind that leveling is still the majority of this game, that many, if not most, players are like myself and running SO and common IO builds. Plant at level 20 gameplay in current beta feels like playing Electric before the beta buffs.

I desire to retract this a tad-I rolled an elec/sonic controller to test the new elec control changes and while things do take a bit longer to defeat, it's not nearly as slog feeling as on plant. Elec feels pretty great right now.

I'm still testing, but I just wanted to drop a quick comment based on the little bit of testing I've done so far: I rolled an Elec/Sonic Troller and boosted it to level 10. Early game for Elec Control feels so much better so far! I wanted to start my testing at a lower level since my experience with elec control has been that it has a bit of a painful early game. The jolting chain buff is noticeable at this level and putting quite the punch in baddies. The end drain seems like it's working fast too and even at 10 and not slotted for sapping, I'm able to neuter enemies pretty effectively. I love the new visual upgrade to jolting chain as well--it feels very satisfying. As of right now, playing Elec against the newly buffed critters doesn't feel as bad as on the plant/marine troller I'm testing; we'll see how it goes as I bump this one in levels. Thank you for making it so elec's early game doesn't feel so awful anymore.

I am going to miss a good chunk of June--it's summer, school's out, and my parents are in town and want to do things with my daughter and I next weekend, and the 21st and 28th we're doing Girl Scout camps. The themes look great though and I'm bummed I missed today and will miss a bunch of others. Thank you for the hard work you put into coming up with the themes and keeping this running, Frau. ❤️

That's good to know! So many people seem to like it, I assume that either I am not using/understanding it correctly, or perhaps I was missing something with it.

On a level 20 plant/marine troller with basic IOs in beta, yes, I felt like just trying to take down even level groups was a slog. The changes made might not be noticeable on every AT, but tankers and some trollers/doms are feeling it. At the moment, it's noticeably slower than on live, but I haven't been able to extensively test.

This is kind of how I feel about the Page 2 changes to critter health regen--why are we making things more of a slog? Because of the sect of people who are blowing through +4/x8 solo? This change hurts players like myself who play as @Captain Fabulous mentions: with SO's and common IO's and sub-optimized builds. CoH isn't a for profit game anymore and making mobs more of a slog to defeat for those of us average players may cause some of us to leave the game, especially if we have limited time to play anyway. It's one of the reasons I do try my best to be a part of beta testing because I see so many people jump into beta threads and comment based on their transferred over IO'd to the gills level 50 character and it's like, okay, but how does this perform while leveling? While not twinked? I haven't been able to beta test much this time around because my real life has been a bit consuming, but I appreciate anyone who says, hey, don't forget about the average players in these discussions and not just the geared out OP folks.

I had a last minute change of plans come up for tomorrow, so I will be unable to make it.

Thank you for this. I look forward to testing the set again with these changes and hoping it doesn't feel as sloggish as it did before.

Exactly, no feedback thread for this change and rolling it out at the same time as sweeping AT changes is not good. I truly don't think all of the plant changes are *horrible*; the new vines change is actually pretty cool. However, when combined with the mob changes, it leaves Plant feeling a bit anemic when testing right now and it's hard to know how to report on that. And I do agree with others that the Seeds changes went too far. I haven't tested Carrion Creepers yet, but the devs have acknowledged those are bugged right now and it may be better to wait until they patch Creepers before testing them in their current state. I think if these changes were made with how the mobs act currently on live, Plant would not feel as bad as it does right now, but as it stands, are the plant changes bad or are the mob changes overtuned? Making the game more of a slog because it was "too easy" is not the way to go, imo. Not all of us play twinked out characters or geared to the gills 50's, and these changes hurt those players (of which I am one).

Likely. I suspect, as I've seen others mention, high damage AT's that already have little trouble killing things likely won't notice much of a change, but others that have slower rates of killing will. I find this mob change introduced at the same time as sweeping AT changes is poor timing and makes it hard to know how to report the changes--e.g., are the tanker changes actually bad or do the mob changes need tuning and the tanker changes are mostly fine?