Coyote

Is Spring Attack still bugged so it doesn't properly take buffs like Fulcrum Shift? I think that used to be its problem some time ago... I don't recall for sure, just that there was some major problem with improving the damage on it. Buffs? Procs didn't work in it? I don't recall which, but I don't recall seeing anything about a fix to it in Patch notes.

Also, Stone Melee is full of knockdowns and knockup. Not on every attack like Battle Axe, but Fault is 100% AoE knockup, and the two Mallets have high KD/KU chances. Also, Earth Assault for Doms has KU/KD in 2 AoE and 3 ST attacks, plus another ST attack with KB.

Hm. There are two discussions here: 1) MM changes on Beta, and what we think about them 2) Solutions to the REAL MM problems of -2 pets against +3 mobs, and a constant DoT-style damage output in a high-level game of burst AoE DPS. I wager that #1 is almost an irrelevant discussion as those changes are too straightforward, simple, and beneficial, to not end up going in about like they are on Beta. And that #2 is a discussion that is forthcoming. Clearly the MM changes are kind of "low-hanging fruit" to make some quick duct tape fixes, but I will be shocked if there isn't some real discussion initiated by the Dev team, regarding how to solve the MM issues long-term.

Also, Burst of Speed (Blaster: Martial Combat), and Feral Charge (Dom: Savage) and Savage Leap (Savage Melee)... all really cool. Changing Tremor in one of the Earth Melee/Assault sets might be interesting... sink into the ground, pop up under the targets. Make it a limited range like 40' self Teleport, and people will be taking the set just to use that one power.

Heh, yeah. I decided to make a second build for a level 50 character, and in about 5 hours (including respeccing, buying, and slotting all the IOs I got) I was able to finance about a 400 million build by buying and selling. Lame and boring, but still... 4 hours to earn the inf for a high-priced build is worth the time saved later. Then, you can get advice on builds without needing limitations on what sets can be suggested.

Well, it was because going from one pet to two would double their damage, and it wasn't reasonable to double your damage just like that. So dropping the pets a level made them about 90% as accurate and 90% of the damage, so each pet was about 80% ofs the DPS, and now two pets were 1.6x the DPS of the first one. It seemed reasonable at that point, but that was when fighting at +2 was the top difficulty level soloing, and fighting +4s on teams was still pretty rare. Nowadays, MMs need reconsideration on how their pets can be useful when they're 5-6 levels below the mobs, but without jumping their damage so much as they would if pets didn't have a level shift. I really don't have a good and workable suggestion, since I want to avoid suggesting solutions for 50+ that won't help MMs in a 40+ newspaper team that's at high difficulty. So: how to keep the pet damage from ramping up much too quickly, while removing the level shift? Maybe lower the damage of the first two tiers and raise the damage of the MM personal attacks? Since now the MM's share of the damage is higher at lower levels, going from 1 Tier 1 to 2 Tier 1s at the same level wouldn't be as big of a jump... then the Tier 1s remain more useful at the high end, but MMs don't become OP in the mid-levels where they get multiple pets before the difficulty sliders really get pushed up.

I like /Cold as the secondary for Demons. It's not as tanky as some of the other options, but it's really not far behind, and it's way better on offense than all of them except for /Dark, and it's still ahead of /Dark. While being a lot less finicky about having to manage a debuff toggle.

While it would be a major redesign that I'm not sure the Dev team is up for, replacing the upgrades with different and more interesting powers (and basically, anything other than Rest would probably be more interesting) is something that everyone seems to be in agreement with. Personally I'm not going to throw out suggestions yet, but I'd be down with pretty much anything like yours or @tidge's or any other similar suggestion. The main thing is whether the Dev team would be open to all of the work required to add 2 new powers to all of the powersets, migrate all of the powers to the base pets (maybe work on gating some of them based on the level of the henchman), and balance them all. The result would be a great improvement, IMO, but it's also on the other side of a large mound of work 😞

They could, except that I think you keep missing my point. The point isn't that the upgrade on its own is a tactical decision... other than bad balance where you want to skip specific tiers because of bad powers, you will generally always want to use it on every pet. The tactics comes not in deciding to use it, because that's a "yes, on all summoned pets". Instead, it's on the choice of "upgrade or attack/heal/control", and that choice always appears whenever you summon a henchman to replace a deceased one, and it's there whether you are upgrading multiple henchmen or just one. I don't know if you're actually paying attention, or just kneejerking and trying to put out arguments that aren't well-reasoned. If the upgrade powers were dropped to being single-target, then in many situations it would kind of make the choice irrelevant, because of course it would be better to throw out the other powers since they do more, and only upgrade whenever there is a lull in the power animations. In other words, make the choice too obvious either in being good or bad, and the decision makes itself. The only time it's a relevant decision is when the balance between upgrading henchmen vs using other powers is good... that there is a good argument to be made for using either. In fact, right now, considering that a fight may only last for 20 more seconds, and the amount of extra damage to be gained from upgrading a henchman or two over those 20 seconds may not be worth two powers with pretty long animations, I actually think that the decision is kind of tilted AGAINST mid-combat upgrading, and it would be nice if they were sped up a bit. Weakening them would make the decision less interesting. A good balance makes tactics interesting. Making them automatic removes the tactics... making them not worth using mid-fight also removes tactics. Making them worth using rather than Transfusion or Ice Arrow creates a viable decision point. And on top of that, using them between fights as AoE upgrades is okay, but turning them back into single-target buffs would be seriously annoying.

I don't necessarily agree that the replacement power should be another pet (though I'm not against it either, I just don't want to limit it to a pet power). But the rest of the ideas are pretty good... basically, since it comes at Level 6, the first upgrade is almost an irrelevant power pick since its absence is only relevant for levels 1-5. Turn it into anything useful, and the class will improve both in being more interesting and more capable.

Don't weaken your argument by using silly phrases like "great tactical decision". A tactical decision doesn't have to be great in order to be a tactical decision, and by saying it that way you're trying to pretend that arguments are silly, or must meet a high standard of relevance. This is not the case. Using the upgrade in the middle of combat IS a tactical decision. If I summon a henchman in the middle of a fight that will last another 20 seconds, then I have a choice: upgrade NOW and get 20 seconds worth of buffing on the henchman compared to the alternative of upgrading after the fight is complete. Upgrading takes animation time that prevents me from healing, debuffing, or doing damage or mezzing opponents. In some cases, the 20 seconds of upgraded henchmen may be worth the animation time, in other cases they won't, but in all cases there is a trade-off between upgrading vs using other powers in the middle of combat. I have a lot of problems with the upgrade powers, chiefly that they're a boring and repetitive plan compared to gating henchmen powers by level, and getting two other powers that are actually tactical other than in terms of eating up animation time or not. However, I don't see how it's possible to make the argument that eating up animation time in the middle of combat in order to upgrade a henchmen is NOT a tactical decision. It's exactly a tactical decision: do I spend the next 4 seconds buffing up the Demon Prince, or throwing an attack and a mez at the Boss? Which will end up killing/debuffing/controlling the Boss faster or better? It's not a tactical decision if it's not in combat. But then, there are few non-combat decisions that are tactical.

@tidge meant... "why don't the henchmen that you get access to AFTER you get access to the upgrade already have the upgrade built in?". Clearly the "powers being gated by level" argument doesn't apply when the upgrade is available at 6 and the henchmen only at 12 and 26.

Elec is that tanky. I don't think that Nature is generally tankier than Time, but perhaps it works better with Demons due to stacking Resists. But any of those sets specifically mentioned by @TheSpiritFox should work with the caveat that Dark is not a buff set but a debuff set so you have to make sure you're not allowing fights to add spawns that aren't debuffed.

This is a slight change off what you have, with the main difference changing Vengeance for CJ which makes up for losing some Defense, swapping some IOs in Zombies, and changing Agility for Musculature (with Necros, I like Alphas that give -ToHit modifiers so they can put out a lot of -ToHit debuffing). Gloom has two slotting options... one gives better IO bonuses, the other does a good deal more damage (over 200 DPA with Musculature)

Sure I can. And I have, though I didn't go into specific detail. There just isn't much of a point in arguing when the listener's point is that my side cannot be argued rationally, is bizzare, and spurious, and should be treated as such. At this point, I said how they're comparable with a small amount of detail, and reiterated there there a rational reason for comparison. But while I'm happy to discuss game design detail because it's one of my interests, I learned years ago that sometimes there is nothing to be gained in some arguments other than heartburn. Thus, my point is here, yours is there, and we'll have to live in peace on separate spurs of bizzare rationalizations.

I agree completely. Upgrade powers are boring. I wish they'd added something to the class instead that has some tactical depth when using, more than "this eats up animation time and Endurance".

Eh. The comparison to BU/Aim was well-reasoned and introduced for good and logical arguments.

I don't KB2KD on the first two tiers, because each has a single Knockback power with just a 30% chance and about a 12 second cycle time. That's like 1.5 mobs tossed per minute per robot, or 8 overall tosses for the entire squad. In a minute. Not worth caring about, IMO. Now, the AssBot gets the Overwhelming Force, which also adds KD to attacks that don't normally have it like Incendiary Swarm Missiles, so overall I don't feel that Robots are really hurting due to having to slot KB2KD converters.

I found a Plant/Savage Dom to be a lot of fun. Savage/Bio Stalker was fun also, but not quite as much so.

I run Bots/EA, and they can handle +4/x8 at max level. But I agree that from mid-level on, they have a dragging pace to their feel, since Bosses JUST DON'T DIE!!!. Bots single-target damage is just anemic, and the -Regeneration is only useful against AVs, so while the AssBot clears spawns pretty well once you get the last upgrade, Bosses are just a pain. They should be fine up to x4, though, once you get the last upgrade, as you don't see too many Bosses at that difficulty setting.

I'm not liking a couple of concepts in this build. It's possible that if you prefer to run outside of Bodyguard mode and control the pets actively, that this build may work better for your style. Personally I run the MM more aggressively and the henchmen remain in Bodyguard mode much of the time. 0: You didn't take 2 of the pet auras (the ones from normal Pet Sets). You still have room in Soul Extraction to add them, and I'd definitely add them there. If you don't want to add the slots, I'd rather go with just 2 Soulbound and get the auras, they're too important to skip. 1: /EA is a very strong defensive secondary that will keep the pets alive very well. You're not going to be Tankerminding with this combination. And you will also have the benefit of an Absorb shield that's regularly refreshed, regular healing from the chain Heal, some healing from Life Drain, and good Resist from the Faraday cage... in addition to Bodyguard. Given all this, I wouldn't worry about chasing defensive/resist set bonuses like the 6-slotted Gaussian or Command of the Mastermind. I'd go for more damage, period... /EA will handle the defense. 2: On the same topic, take AT LEAST Gloom, if not also Dark Blast (but EA is busy so I'm not sure there's room to run all 3 attacks)... it is very helpful defensively to just debuff a Boss into submission by ordering the Lich to attack it and following with the blasts for a lot of -ToHit. Bosses usually do most of the AoE damage and thus you can save yourself a good amount of having to heal by debuffing them more. 3: I like to put at least 2 damage procs in LifeDrain plus the Theft of Essence. Yes, it can heal you, but... you won't be taking much damage in general, and the chain heal will keep up with the damage you do take. I'd rather put procs in this and in Gloom (3 in Gloom including Apocalypse, 2 damage and 1 ToE in this) and focus Bosses down faster. Again, this is more for a playstyle where the MM attacks more and trusts Bodyguard to work defensively. Note that Discharge has a fast recharge and two uses of it will generally zero out spawns, as well as being able to quickly stack Shock with it and drain a single Boss. Then blast another Boss, and 2 Bosses are neutered or at least heavily weakened, so I wouldn't really look to spend too many slots maxing out my personal defenses over draining and blasting. And if I'm getting into trouble, the henchmen will drop first, which means I will need to slot up the Heal and the Absorb more than my defenses, to keep them alive.

I'd like to see two things added: 1) MM options for melee-range personal attacks. Ninjas especially should have the option to go down a Martial Arts tree rather than an Archery tree. 2) Buff/Debuff sets matched with melee-range attack sets (the attack sets would probably need to include a small amount of mez protection). I'd like to see someone mixing daggers and poisons, ice swords and frost shields, etc.

Hopefully you still get insta-censored with the appropriate location pixellation.

I want to twirl them around my fingers for three seconds WHILE the guns shoot all around me. Either that, or to drop them on a stair with the autofire on and have them shoot three bad guys for me as they fall down step after step.

This is a pretty good simile. MM henchmen do damage. Upgraded henchmen do MORE damage. If we could get to having henchmen do MORE damage without having had to animate and pay the End cost of the upgrade powers, then isn't it fair for Blasters to claim that once they've trained Aim and/or Build Up, they should also get to do MORE damage without having to bother animating those two powers? Henchmen upgrade powers ARE our Build Up and Aim, except that instead of +Damage, they add more damage powers. And last until the henchman dies. We're still way ahead.