tidge

I think it is worth repeating 🙂 Many of us will recall that at launch, the level cap was 40. Burning three power picks to get Stamina (which was necessary to hang in combat) was an incredible amount of build overhead for *everybody*. Four extra powers (and all those slots!) by raising the cap to lvl 50, and saving us one pool and 3 power choices added so much to the character design and play experience. Just because many players take Hasten/Tough/Weave/Maneuvers doesn't mean we should give those powers out to everyone (pre-Incarnate, anyway!)

I have no issues with the post above except for one point: Are you sure you aren't seeing something like an incarnate level shift on your (I assume) Crabbermind? Your three Spiderlings should be -2 level, your two Disruptors should be -1 level, and a Patron pet will be even level (with the summoner).

... and someone else made the exact point he was going to make. Oh well, maybe next thread.

Here is some anecdotes from my builds with Hasten. I'm adding this post to try to demonstrate that a single player can have completely different reasons for picking Hasten: Several took Hasten as the level 49 pick, usually because the build 'felt complete' and +recharge is something I can't get from an inspiration (or in solo play). A few took Hasten earlier in the build (usually between levels 22-35) for the 'obvious' reasons: long-recharge thematic powers (or mechanics, like Domination) are becoming available/viable and I *want* those to be available on a faster recharge. I've seen builds take Hasten much earlier (before level 10) which I don't understand from the PoV of a 'leveling build' (how much Recharge could you need before level 20?); if a build is only playing at level 50 I can understand 'odd' choices of when powers are taken. I have two characters that don't quite fit the profile above, and I think each can be used to support whatever argument different corners want to make: I have a Fortunata build with lots of Global recharge but no Hasten. I could easily respec her into Hasten and shave some time off of her 'nuke' (Psychic Wail) but I'm pretty happy with her control/attack chain(s) as is and aside from some (presumably) faster mission speeds (one more 'nuke' per spawn?) and a perma-Mind Link, which she herself doesn't need for most content, here I don't feel the need for Hasten. This toon hasn't taken all four power pools either, so this would be a rather painless swap in the build. Perma-Hasten would be achieved if taken. I have a Scrapper who (at level 50) dropped Provoke (taken instead of Confront, for AoE) and replaced it with Hasten. I like having toons that can help out allies, and so while I miss being able to pull mobs off of teammates I explicitly wanted this toon to maximize DPS. This meant faster build ups, faster (Global) recharge on the proc powers, faster recharge on the click defenses. Perma-Hasten is achieved. I think that, for my two specific toons described above, adding an inherent 'Hasten' would simply make each more powerful (which as I wrote for the first, isn't necessary) and for the second, it's basically getting something for nothing (depending on the extent of the Global Recharge situation). I'm in the camp where I don't think it is necessary to make Hasten inherent. I made my choices and I'm comfortable with them. The original situation with Fitness doesn't apply because that was taking 3 power picks that could have been used to flesh out primary and secondary choices... all to get a single mechanic (more Recovery, from Stamina) that applies to all characters at every level.

We have achieved perma-Haten.

If the global Performance Shifter %+End is at the lowest possible level, this is true.

I almost edited my reply to say exactly this, but I thought I'd let someone else make this rebuttal. Even if the narrative doesn't stand, I have found that the T2 Protector Bots are perfectly happy to act as mules for most of the henchmen auras.

It is almost as if the development team designed the T1 henchman (or perhaps non-offense T2) to act as mules for those pet damage IOs once the MM gets to a higher level...

If you want to entertain yourself, start a new tab just to monitor combat (specifically your ToHit rolls). Read this page, especially the part about "The Streak Breaker": https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics This is partially user bias: It certainly feels like many more of my attacks are hitting thanks to STREAKBREAKER than should. I actually did some log captures to check, and I was humbled by how difficult it would be for me to prove (with any significance) that it was firing too often. Any drop in 'final to hit chance' can allow for more misses before streakbreaker helps you. I remain uncomfortable in my ignorance.

You told me (and anyone else reading this thread). I don't think the Pet IOs are a "huge waste" of slots. There certainly is an offense/defense balance, but if a MM is distributing damage taken (via bodyguard mode) every bit of resistance is helping with the amount of damage being delivered to the Mastermind. My math may be off, but I think 6 henchmen in Bodygaurd mode are taking 75% of the damage meant for the MM (in addition to any damage they might take themselves) so resisting that damage is helping keep the MM alive. I'm not oblivious to the fact that the (especially solo) game resolves around dealing damage, I'm just questioning how 'huge' the waste of slots is. I'd also point out that if a MM has a recharge-instensive pet, those pet IOs (including the /Recharge ones... presumably the least 'wasteful' choices) offer a Global Recharge bonus with 4 slots.

He got the 's' kicked out of him in the 1980s.

How about Rick Dee?

For totally selfish reasons that I can justify (COMICS!) I'd sooner have Tough be made inherent than Hasten.

Most of us agree that there aren't really any 'Billion Inf' builds... maybe if a toon has multiple builds... but WumpusRat's point about also having to take the power choices to support a PermaHasten build are also a factor. Ignoring both a secondary that can contribute to Global Recharge and individual +Recharge Procs: Hasten = 70% (I think with two slots of 50+5 it is something like 99.4%?) (+1 slot) 5xLotG = 5x7.5% = 37.5% (5 different power picks, sadly "Rune of Protection" is not one of them) 3x 2-slot Mark of Supremacy = 3x6.25% = 18.75% (3 henchmen/pet summon powers) (+3 slots) 5xVery Rare sets = 5x10% = 50% (+20 slots) and then I think you still need at least one more Global recharge bonus (could be as few as +3 more slots with the other ATO, or 4-slot a Hold) In any case, I think it would be a peculiar Mastermind build that achieved Perma-Hasten in this way. I think you can get the 5 opportunities to slot the LotG +Recharge in as few as two power pools, the henchmen slotting is likely to be sub-par, and then you have to come up with 6 powers with a LOT of extra slots. On the flip side, the Accuracy bonuses form the Very Rare sets should help the henchmen!

I am sensitive to "stacking" (by any mechanisms, for both offense and defense): Masterminds certainly should be able to solo, but they aren't supposed to be a one-man team of 7 full-kit players. There are pieces of the proposal that I like! I'll circle back, but I have one low-level concern about any individual proposal it is that it feels like shifting a few pebbles has started an avalanche. I think a Babylon 5 gif is called for, but perhaps not the one you may have expected... Circling back to the upgrade powers... as I wrote above, no matter what the AT, I expect to find value (my meaning is consideration for both "pick a power" and "slot a power") from most primary powers. Sorry T9 Tanker choices, don't expect many invitations to the dance. Masterminds have always struck me as odd because It is not just acceptable to skip 3 (or more) powers from a Primary, but that most MM builds are more effective when they do exactly that. The upgrade powers strike me as equally odd: they are vital to the primary, there are two of them, they are used very infrequently, and once taken they require zero investment. I 1-slot them with Endurance reduction, as I suspect most others do. Adding anything to the Upgrades would provide value. Personally, if they are going to be one-cast-and-done, I'd prefer them to provide a passive benefit; as Redlynne suggested, just being able to hold the MM damage enhancement auras would be a HUGE win. Your suggestion that they simply apply boosts is an alternative, but then drives many other changes that I'm not sure I would want to follow all the way to the end. I'm neutral on the idea of the stance changes... I'm either directing the henchmen to "fight, kill, die" or "absorb for me, fight, die" while I am either fighting or supporting... you can try to sell me on the idea that I need more tools in this area, but that doesn't mean I'd use them. I can write more about my personal feelings for the Mastermind AT versus others, but I will limit my written concerns (playing an AT I enjoy) to this: My experience is that the main way MM builds offer the sort of variety that comes naturally to other AT is mostly through the Secondary set and one (sometimes two) Power pool choice(s)... and that it is the chance at variety that drives interest in an AT. The lack of diversity in enhancement choices (and where to slot them) takes a lot of the fun (for me) out of Mastermind character design, more so than any perceived performance issues from the henchmen.

Redlynne has come much closer to identifying the problem and proposing a solution to the problem of enhancing Mastermind Henchmen with IO choices. There are by my count 4 non-ATO aura IOs (2x Defense, 2xResist) and 2 ATO auras. For the MMs with only 3 pets, in order to slot each one of these auras, a MM essentially has to pass on the equivalent of one full pet slot worth of IOs. I'm not sure I've even considered ever getting a 5-slot bonus from any Pet IO or Mastermind ATO set! It would be so much more straightfoward (from a build planning POV, coding issues aside) to be able to slot Henchmen boost globals in a Mastermind primary powers (such as attacks, or the upgrades). We all know that there is very little (game) mechanical reason for an MM to take the attacks, and I can't think of a good reason to invest any slots in the upgrade powers, as is. I feel like almost all of the performance issues for henchmen can be addressed with better Enhancement choices/options. Even as a type this I am willing to concede: The Purple Patch is more problematic for Masterminds than any other AT because of the level scaling (costing them both offense and defense) Some Henchmen have 'flaws' that may not be balanced (Soft Ninjas, poor single-target Bots) Some players don't invest in IOs (but such players are unlikely to be trying to punch way above their level without IOs no matter the AT) I appreciate the deep look at Masterminds, but to be honest I'd rather have more build options (i.e. enhancement choices, reasons to take different powers) to play with before anything else more radical.

Be prepared for the onslaught of "I tanked him with my lvl 49 Defender" posts! I've only actually "tanked" him on a MoMLTF with my Inv/NRG tank. His Endurance drains are very dangerous. I was flying and spamming may Taunt. Dull Pain (a power I almost never use at lvl 50+) was on auto, with me paying attention to Hasten and the Endurance bar. My team was pretty quick with the towers, I'm sure I had less than 20 hits of the Dull Pain pipe. I *tried* to tank him with an uber-defense Night Widow (with Provoke... this is one of the few situations were Confront would have been better), managed to keep his attention *somehow*, but ONE HIT got through and dropped Endurance. It was all over except for tears...

Ok, I rolled out a variant of the build I posted: Same general layout, with the only major change was taking Force of Will for Travel and Debuff instead of the Teleport pool. I think I changed up the order of Provoke and Photon Grenade so I could have something in my hands at low levels. I also change up the Photon Grenade to be focused on Procs, which was a much better choice to do actual damage. I took the lonely big bot for a spin on the Hero Cape Mission at Level 50 with difficulty +0/x8. OMG this was a boring experience. I felt like I was in slow motion. Teleporting Rikti took me forever to defeat, even with the holds and slows. I missed the raw chaos of my 6-bot army! The Assault Bot simply isn't doing enough damage to be worthwhile to play on its own. Neither I nor the bot were ever in any danger, but it was just painfully slow to progress through the missions.

My Bane Spider has queued up his mace to post something in this thread, but you will have to wait for the animation to finish to read it...

I only casually mentioned Hasten in this thread because it was called out as being necessary to make Rune of Protection work (for Masterminds)! I'm quite a fan of Hasten myself, and I grok high levels of Global Recharge for long cooldown pool powers (including Rune of Protection and Unrelenting) as well as how useful it is to have a 90 second cooldown power available every 20 seconds. Since Masterminds can skip so many primary powers (their direct assaults), the Power Pools are soo inviting! Writing only for myself, my default considerations for the pools always start: 1) Travel (Preferably a flight or SJ, because it is about *ME* goldurnit, and *I* want freedom of movement in the world!) 2) Leadership (for the pets) 3) Fighting (for the Resistance mules, and ultimately Weave for defenses) 4) ???? The 4th Pool choice just has so many options (that I have explored): Presence: Essentially a 1-pick wonder for Tankerminds with Provoke (with two great 3rd and 4th choices, if you dare dive deep but Unrelenting also needs Recharge) Speed: 1-pick wonder for Global recharge with Hasten Medicine: Targeted healing of Pets/Teammates/Self (and a debuff) Concealment: For extra defense (Grant Invisibility) Teleport: Teleport Foe as a long-range taunt (not recommended, but it sort of works) I'm certainly aware of necessary compromise that can be made. I'm one of the last people that would ever try to tell someone that they are playing their AT wrong. I simply wanted to comment on this specific thread, for the specific case of calling out "Rune of Protection" for mez protection, that there are a lot more assumptions that go into making that particular power choice work than I usually see mentioned.

Masterminds certainly have more freedom to dip deeper(*1) into power pools than other ATs... ...but a Rune of Protection for the Mastermind is almost certainly going to be a secondary concern for any Mastermind whose pets are dealing the "most damage" (either through straight aggression or via Defending/Supremacy/Tankermind). If it is about damage dealing, Enflame might be a better choice from the Sorcery pool. (*1) Hasten (Speed pool) is a dead end for many ATs, but except for Recharge-intensive pet builds I rarely consider it for Masterminds.