Auroxis

Even if Bruising wasn't meant to give tankers identity, tankers have the best -res numbers on every single power available to melee classes. There is evidence of offensive support tendencies on tankers even if you assume the bruising addition was purely to make the forced t1 picks decent.

The general case being what? No damage buffs at all and AoE reach and target cap being irrelevant? I already stated why it's hard for me to let go, I wanted offensive support buffs for a long time (I've been vocal about my reasoning long before the patch) and instead i got a support nerf, a useless must-pick t1 power and a tanker that more closely resembles a brute in function.

See, this is why I didn't wanna give feedback again, because there are always people who ignore 90% of my and other people's work and cherry-pick whatever suits their argument. I calculated and gave damage comparisons at multiple damage buff and fury breakpoints which showed Tankers reaching Brute levels of damage when moderate damage buffs are in play(Rage is not the only source), created new builds and ran tests (With TW, Staff, and SS, leadership, weaken resolve, pyre mastery, soul mastery) both with pylons and regular gameplay. That you choose to take all that and boil it down to "you did nothing but show SS needs a nerf" is downright insulting to the hours upon hours of work i invested into build-making, setup, tests and documentation.

The Tanker/Brute comparisons were done comparing identical melee/armor set configurations, the Corruptor/Blaster analogy doesn't quite work to the same effect. Also there's a reason Blasters got a buff.

Yes @Jimmy because having Bruising gives you Defender levels of force multiplication? It's not even Controller/Corruptor/SoA/MM levels, and those classes' -res powers stack from other casters. And if you wanna keep the Tanker different from a ranged support class, how are you ok with the fact that my tests (and others) showed the Tanker getting Brute levels of damage?

Far from it. "My way" would have been completely different from the changes (which I obviously won't get into ITT), I agreed to compromise on several issues including the removal of Bruising, but the only thing I got was a slight increase to leadership and melt armor debuff/buff numbers which were toned down shortly afterwards. There was also the addition of Weaken Resolve which soon after got the multiplier attached to weaken it on tankers.

I'm not here to re-open the topic. I'm here to respond to posts saying the bruising topic was "hashed out" when in fact it was clearly not, as you can see in the post you linked.

This isn't the feedback thread.

I did, and while it was discussed, a lot of my counter-arguments were ignored. And I don't have to stay quiet if I feel like my voice isn't being heard. There was actual discussion, and I wasn't asking for all the changes i dislike to be removed. If I weren't able to compromise I would've given up a long time ago.

I responded to every single one of those replies and didn't get a response in the end. Just because you think the rationale was firm doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Acknowledged how? By giving tankers a stronger buff/debuff multiplier only to nerf it back down because my tests showed the damage buffs were too strong alongside the support buffs? By making T1 powers useless in a patch that's supposed to address tankers? I love this game so obviously this won't stop me from coming back, it's just me expressing my disappointment more than trying to change stuff at this point.

"All hashed out" implies both sides of the argument were satisfied. I'm still left with a useless must-pick T1 power, still lose a feature i've been enjoying for years in favor of a damage buff I didn't want (i wanted support buffs), and I still lose class distinction between the brute and tanker. There was no "hashing out" being taken place, just me addressing my concerns and them being brushed aside over and over again.

Time/* is probably the most flexible defender to build due to how easy it is to reach recharge and defense goals. You can go for different tank/utility/damage routes without really missing out on a lot. My favored route is Sorcery for the Spirit Ward/Rune of Protection utility due to the recharge levels you can reach and Spirit Ward adding range to your support package. Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Defender Primary Power Set: Time Manipulation Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack Power Pool: Sorcery Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Leaping Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Temporal Mending -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(3), Prv-Heal/Rchg(3), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Prv-Heal(5), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7) Level 1: Shriek -- DfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), DfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(9), DfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), DfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), DfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(36), DfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46) Level 2: Time's Juncture -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(7) Level 4: Scream -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), GldJvl-Dam%(42), HO:Nucle(46) Level 6: Spirit Ward -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(17), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(19) Level 8: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 12: Temporal Selection -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(15), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(15) Level 14: Howl -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Knock%(31), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(34), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Ann-ResDeb%(37) Level 16: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A) Level 18: Farsight -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(31), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(46) Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(21), Rct-ResDam%(27) Level 22: Amplify -- GssSynFr--Build%(A) Level 24: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(25), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(27), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(29) Level 26: Slowed Response -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A) Level 28: Shockwave -- SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(40), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(43), ExpStr-Dam%(43), PstBls-Dam%(43) Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 32: Chrono Shift -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(33), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(34) Level 35: Dark Embrace -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(36), GldArm-3defTpProc(36) Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(40) Level 41: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42) Level 44: Screech -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apc-Acc/Rchg(45), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(50), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), GldJvl-Dam%(50) Level 47: Summon Mistress -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(48) Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Quick Form Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Clr-Stlth(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A) Level 1: Vigilance Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(19), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(21) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(23), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(23) Level 50: Agility Core Paragon Level 0: Task Force Commander Level 0: Portal Jockey Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve Level 0: The Atlas Medallion Level 50: Clarion Radial Epiphany Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment ------------

Sorry but as it feels like my feedback is being ignored, I will no longer participate in these tests and discussions.

The reasoning was that it's only an AV assist tool unless you're at high levels of recharge, which usually only arrive once your build is almost done. I think you can switch its level selection with Screech since that one's mostly used against AV's as well.

Here's one with Cauterize Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Mutation Defender Primary Power Set: Thermal Radiation Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leaping Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Warmth -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(17), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(37) Level 1: Shriek -- SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(3), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Thn-Acc/Dmg(50), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50) Level 2: Cauterize -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(11), Prv-Heal/Rchg(13), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(15), Prv-Heal(15) Level 4: Thermal Shield -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(25), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(37) Level 6: Scream -- SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Thn-Acc/Dmg(9), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(40), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46) Level 8: Plasma Shield -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(33) Level 10: Power of the Phoenix -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 12: Thaw -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(42) Level 14: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33) Level 18: Forge -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(23) Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 24: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25) Level 26: Heat Exhaustion -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(27) Level 28: Howl -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(29), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Rgn-Knock%(31), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(31) Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A) Level 32: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(34), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), TtnCtn-EndRdx(34) Level 35: Screech -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg(36), Apc-Acc/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(37) Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(40) Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(50) Level 44: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(45), Rct-Def(45), Rct-Def/EndRdx(46) Level 47: Melt Armor -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(48), AchHee-ResDeb%(48) Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Quick Form Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(45) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(43) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Clr-Stlth(A), Clr-RunSpd(43) Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(43) Level 1: Vigilance Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(5), EndMod-I(5) Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve Level 0: Portal Jockey Level 0: Task Force Commander Level 0: The Atlas Medallion Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon ------------

So I need to get my head checked, as do the original game's devs for choosing Bruising to address the Tanker's woes. I appreciate your concern for people's health, but please keep such comments to yourself. You can say that about any single target -res power, it being marginal is your opinion. Multiplying team damage is a massive asset , so much that CP nerfed -res multiple times already and believes making Bruising stack (from multiple casters) would make the class OP. You know there are visual red debuff indicators for -res? And the whole 10 second thing is a useful indicator in itself, it's not a random duration and it can fit into an attack chain seamlessly. Tankers have a lot of good AoE options, ranging from powersets to power pools. And this patch is already addressing AoE. Tanker damage is definitely not "utterly laughable" as it is right now, that's more of a player issue than a class issue. That said I'm not gonna use that argument to deny the class damage buffs, but I am gonna talk against damage buffs when they come at the expense of taking away features of the class I enjoy. I did actually suggest the former. Bruising was far from a bad "band-aid fix" though, as it fixed multiple problems while keeping the class unique, and Tankers remain popular to this day. It should be expanded upon, not removed in favor of having two Brute classes.

I don't like the -regen idea (not just because "change bad boohoo"). Decent -regen is something that's for the most part exclusive to classes with access to support powersets, unlike -res which is fairly spread around and the -regen cap is much lower than the -res cap. So you're probably looking at giving paltry -regen values (like -150%) which is worse than multiplying your team's damage with -res, or giving decent -regen values (-300%) which either steps on support's toes (you're literally nullifying what they bring to the party, since -regen has a far lower cap than -res) or nullifies the effect itself once you're teamed with more than three other tankers. I already told CP why I disagree with the concept of stack-able bruising being OP. You currently have DPS+Support classes able to contribute greater -res/team utility (Corruptors and SoA's) and the game isn't suffering for it. You have lots of Defender combos that contribute tons of -res. A full team of tankers with the current damage buffs and stack-able bruising? Sure that's pretty strong, but the damage buffs can be toned down a bit to compensate. We still have the AoE buffs to help the Tanker in the AoE damage department, though they are inconsistent, much like the self-buff change which hopefully gets rolled back. Well so much for not giving feedback anymore, but the fact that bruising is getting some attention gave me some hope I guess.

So objectively bad the original devs of this game kept it for years. So objectively bad it gives the class a support aspect that sets it apart from the Brute and makes the lackluster T1 attacks decent. So objectively bad it's part of the reason I rolled a Tanker and fully IO'd/Incarnated it out. But apparently I need my head examined for doing that. I'm done giving feedback on this massive patch (which gets new stuff added to the list constantly, except letting me keep what I have). But I thought I needed to say something when I saw that comment.

Those were nerfed to controller levels. And there's the removal of Bruising, so it's still a net loss in support.

The target cap increases are also spread around and do not apply to all attacks.

My Brutes definitely don't reach that consistently on teams unless i'm constantly in combat and getting aggro. And the original statement was about a "modest" amount of Fury.

SS simulates a "moderately buffed" scenario, other powersets need more juice to get there but with only a "modest" amount of Fury to compare it with the gap is quite small.

"Most of the time" is fairly subjective. If you're running on a team with a moderate amount of damage buffs, a Brute with only a modest amount of Fury is definitely going to get out-classed by a Tanker.

I've personally run zero farm tests, all of mine have been in the regular +4x8 gameplay and DPS comparison departments. Keep in mind that in a farm scenario, Tankers get the target cap benefit while Brutes get the max fury benefit. It's an interesting edge case scenario.

With these powersets specifically? Did you try red insp farm runs?