Marbing

In theory , maybe. In practice, no. I’ve tested this over and over. Defenders simply have much much better build flexibility than Corruptors and as such don’t have to sacrifice much to load up the procs. If the Corruptor does this, they are giving up a lot. This leads to Defenders often outpacing Corruptors damage wise while maintaining better survival and buffs/de-buffs. There are many many people that have proven this with Pylon tests and such. This is similar to the issues between Brutes and Tanks.

False. Read my comment above on what problems they DO cause. There needs to be a happy medium. I am not calling for a massive nerf, just some balance. As are many others here.

Because some AT's have better build flexibility than others, procs on those AT's are easy to abuse and make entire other AT's irrelevant. Damage procs especially need to be reduced in effectiveness nearly across the board. There are entire powersets that benefit far more than had to be intended. That being said, there has to be a happy medium (like the devs always say) that can be reached here. Buff some procs, nerf others, etc. Balance out their effectiveness and reduce the ability to completely abuse them. I have an Elec/TA controller that I have proc'd out to insanity and still have soft capped defenses. It isn't hard to do. And also, it doesn't promote build diversity because honestly why would I want to do massively less damage? To gain what, exactly? If I already have soft capped defenses and perma hasten what exactly am I going to do with those other slots that is going to be better for my toon than making Jolting Chain and Acid Arrow proc bombs that do massive freaking damage (for a controller). The answer: nothing really. Here I am an abuser of the system, calling out the system for being abusable. I don't want Jolting Chain and Acid Arrow to become irrelevant, that's not what I am saying at all, but a change to the system needs to be made to find that happy medium. And I think THAT would promote true build diversity.

I have a fire/psi dom and even I agree Bonfire is a bit OP in its current state. There is almost no reason for me to cast any other ability, just let them all burn and flop around in the bonfire, and it is up for every group.

I think this is what makes changing it so hard. Need to be able to choose between different “models” that we get changed into. The No Fx option feels odd for this, because a) then it would be hard to tell if you had it active or not and b) the idea is that you become a huge rock and thus explains your crazy high resistance, otherwise your just Invulnerability. HOWEVER, that being said, it’s current state does make the cosmetics of the rest of the set kind of useless. So a No Fx option would at least let you able to see your other powers if you are going for a certain look. Maybe instead of No Fx though it simply changes your skin to rock, lava, or crystal. So like if your toon had regular skin before it is now replaced with the skin you chose for the power. This would give it a more subtle but still on theme effect.

As a fellow fan of bubblers I must agree with a lot of what you posted. But I do have some suggestions... Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field kind of serve a similar purpose, which is the same problem that Force Bubble and Repulsion Field have now. So, (if this is possible) I would make Impenetrable Field only have max Repel on things already OUTSIDE the bubbles radius. Giving you the ability to essentially trap mops inside (splitting them from those outside). This gives Repulsion Field use still in keeping targets out of melee range with you (that are still in the bubble). I would also then add a minor dmg tic to Repulsion Field. Nothing huge but it makes sense if you are constantly being bombarded by waves of force to push you away, that is going to hurt a little. Maybe make it unenhanceable damage? I think this gives both Repulsion Field and Impenetrable Field extra utility, but also makes them different enough from one another that they are still both very useful together. I wouldn't make Repulsion Bomb a blaster level nuke, but I would greatly increase its damage from what it is now. Thus still giving the bubbler more offense than other support sets give without necessarily giving them 2 nukes. Maybe something like High or Superior level damage, but not Extreme. Lastly, without the ability to target yourself, how would your new T1 Force Bubble work if you wanted to cast it on yourself? Target nothing and it casts on user? Just thinking out loud here...or in text... Would love to know what you think.

I feel like a simple solution could be that certain procs that are considered OP (mainly damage procs) can only be used IF you have at least 3 of that procs set in that power. So if you wanted to use the dmg proc in the set, you must have at least 2 others from that set in the power. That would effectively reduce the number of dmg procs you could put in one power. I wouldn't say do this to ALL procs, because some are used rarely and could probably use a buff (to give more options), but dmg procs in particular are abused wayyy too much. Maybe that would be do heavy a dependency?

You bring up a good point and this may have to do with build flexibility favoring the Corruptor in PvP since you don’t really need to worry about defense because of DR.

I guess everyone agrees this is simply a proc problem. Maybe it is. It is clear however that no one likes the idea I presented, haha. That is fine, I figured it was a reach. Well I guess we will see what happens when procs are “rebalanced”. Peace out y’all. Thank you all for the feedback!

It absolutely could. Semantics. I am not talking about a 1% difference here. There is always going to be some mathematical differences, I am aware of that. The issue I am talking about bout is: Corruptors are better than Defenders at WHAT exactly? Right now, very little. I just want there to be a few more situations where a Corruptor shines over a Defender, period. Not always no, but they can and often do. I never said Vigilance was the problem for team play nor was it the main problem for solo play, it simply makes the problem more glaring for solo play. I used Vigilance as an example of A PROBLEM not as THE PROBLEM. I also mentioned power proliferation and de-buffs to certain Corruptor sets that you didn’t comment on. As I mentioned earlier there were a lot of changes over time that got us here. A straight damage buff has been talked about before and shot down, awhile ago. So I was trying to approach this from a different angle, I am not entirely opposed to one. If we wanted a Corruptor to do more damage than a Defender with Vigilance then the Corruptor would need to be at at least .85, they are at .75 now. AT LEAST, and I am not confident that would put them enough beyond to really mean anything. But that’s not including how de-buffs like extra -res fit as that will vary by power set. The problem is a straight damage buff may put them too close to Blasters or Dominators. Idk, I’d have to do the math on that. To be clear I am not looking for mathematical equivalence, I am looking for relevance. I want there to be more power set combinations that favor the Corruptor than currently exist but not so much that they are then better. I have said before in this thread I am worried about the pendulum swinging too far. So we are at least both on the same page there. But we can’t just keep using that argument to mean let’s just do nothing, or let’s nerf everyone (proc nerf) to make a few AT’s happy. Like the Devs have said, let’s find that happy medium. Appreciate the feedback as always! 🙂

I can see both sides of the fence here. Ultimately more freedom in this area = more interesting builds, so I think I am leaning that way.

I like this idea and I will go one step further, what if on some of those hunt missions the "hunted" get tipped of that you are hunting specifically them and thus gang up to attack you sometimes. Like here you are taking on a group of Hellions and then OH NO another group of Hellions comes in to help them from around the corner! I think that could make them more interesting and engaging. Also, any of those that you kill arrest that tried to help would count toward your total.

Just to throw in some support here, I second this^

First, a Corruptors role was the support class for villains. Masterminds did this as well, but their modifiers are actually slightly lower so a Corruptor was better if you simply needed pure support. The twist that they did more damage helped them also semi fill the role of a blaster for ranged damage, a role that was also semi filled by Dominators at the time. Then, they allowed for Defenders and Corruptors to play together. And the line still was that there were certain buff/debuff sets you could only get on a Corruptor: Poison, Thermal, Pain Domination, Cold Domination. So again they still had a role, if you wanted one of those sets you had to play a Corruptor (or a Mastermind). There was a clearer line, or reason to create a Corruptor over a Defender. Then they proliferated all the powersets together among Defender/Corruptor. Including Fire Blast, Ice Blast, etc etc so that a Defender is essentially able to do everything a Corruptor could previously do and vice versa. On top of this, when they proliferated certain sets over to Defenders, they actually went ahead and made them weaker on Corruptors. An example of this I believe was Thermal Radiation's Melt Armor. It used to be -30% res on a Corruptor but after proliferating it to Defenders, they gave the Defenders the -30% res and dropped the Corruptor version to -22.5% (IIRC I could be wrong on the exact numbers). In the middle of all of this there was still the argument that Corruptors could do more damage solo and thus they were better/easier to play solo (which is niche role but still it was something to their advantage). But they messed that up when they added +30% damage to Defenders through Vigilance when they are solo. So, you see, there were a multitude of changes over time that reduced the necessity or need for a Corruptor to almost nothing. My argument is that you can make a small change to reverse this by adjusting their de-buff modifiers to match or surpass that of a Defender (preferably match, because I don't want to swing the pendulum too far). That way there is a clearer line that, Defender = Buff and Corruptor = De-buff. Though they can still do both if needed. Does where I am coming from make sense? I will admit my solution may not be the best. But I would like to see SOMETHING done to help Corruptors and I know I am not alone in this.

I wish you guys did a little later, I am on Indom and I have a claws/SR scrapper I would like to try out. But 5pm EST is too early for me, wouldn't be on at that time. Regardless, this looks really fun and is an awesome idea!

Excellent observation.

I hesitate to say it, because I could be wrong and if I am that would technically be sort of insulting and I mean no insult: BUT, he could have been being sarcastic... maybe.... I think this is precisely how we landed at this discussion, via creep. Small changes over time: -Vigilance gets +30% dmg buff solo -Going Rogue, now Defenders and Corruptors can play both sides! -Poison, Pain Dom, etc proliferated over to Defenders (and vice versa for some of the traditionally Defender powersets) -Procs, procs, procs, procs.... Over time this is how we went from Corruptors serving a clear role, to where we are now.

You know a simple solution could be that you don't have to be in SG mode to earn prestige, you earn it by simply being in an SG. SG mode only changes your costume to the SG colors (like the toggle it currently is). Prestige then wouldn't take from INF or XP it would just simply be something you get along side of those since you are in an SG. Then maybe down the road those prestige points can be converted into something either personal or for the SG as a whole. That way prestige doesn't really hurt anything, there is not "I forgot to toggle SG mode" you just play. And the more you play the more prestige you get, that simple. You already have SG's that are hyper sensitive about SG activity and will boot you for not participating or not being online. Turning on Prestige in the way I described wouldn't change that in any way. You don't like it? Join a more laid back SG and use your Prestige for yourself!

Yeah man, that would be nice too. I think we could do with some more incarnate zones, that may be too much to ask of the Devs, but like a new incarnate zone (like Dark Astoria) with new storylines and missions and all the enemies outside are level shifted so its like super a tough zone overall, idk. I can dream.

I am game for that man! I have been saying there needs to be more MM variety! This would do that for sure, and in an interesting yet completely disgusting way... bugs! 😄 Good idea. May need some tweaking but I like the concept!

Oooooo ... hmmmm... interesting out of the box idea! Or, similar to the Scrapper ATO, increase the global chance to Scourge after 50% by some set amount.

You raise a very good point! The ATO's would be a good place to help drill in that difference. Maybe Malice of the Corruptor could work similar to the Window ATO that makes all their attacks have a chance to proc Toxic damage? But in this case it would be Neg damage? IDK, you have me thinking... And yes, the probably biggest change IMO that hurt Corruptors was giving Defenders a +30% damage bonus while solo, it was an insane and stupid change that never should have happened.

Of course, don't want to break the game for the casual player.

I see your points, but I can't say that I like the idea of them becoming entirely identical. I like that there are differences, the problem is those differences are heavily weighted in favor of one over the other. People keep raising the Corruptors get their attacks earlier as if thats all that needs to be different. The problem with that argument is that once you get to 50 it doesn't matter when you got the powers and that is the crux of the problem. If you are going to create a character that is going to be mathematically irrelevant at 50 (9 times out of 10, the exception being primarily Kinetic Corruptors), then why wouldn't you just create the one that is going to be better overall in the end? Corruptors have far less advantage over Defenders than Defenders have over Corruptors. There needs to be something that keeps Corruptors mathematically relevant at lvl 50 and beyond without breaking the game. Keep in mind there are some support abillities that were ONLY for Corruptors at one point. Those powersets were stronger on Corruptors then too, when they got proliferated to Defenders a lot of them became weaker on Corruptors because Dev logic was they didnt want to make the powerset stronger on a Defender but the Defender should have stronger support so lets just make it weaker on a Corruptor. Over time as the powers got proliferated this put Corruptors in a weaker and weaker position. Now they don't have any unique powersets, and the ones that were unique to them are now weaker on them (not across the board but there were a few). I want to see a thematic change that keeps Corruptors in the mix mathematically, and I think buffing their de-buff abilities does this without making Defenders irrelevant. Another cool idea presented here was giving them higher contribution from their Power Pool choices, like Defenders have (yet another advantage to Defenders). This would give them better build flexibility. Another idea presented was to make Scourge a sliding scale that can go off at any time, not just after 50%, and gets stronger the closer the target gets to death. For example: at 100% health they have a small chance for a 10% crit but at 10% health they have a large chance for a 100% crit. Any one of those could be just enough to nudge Corruptors in the right direction without erasing the need for Defenders. In my opinion, of course.

The supply is fine as is. I have never had any issues. Get some Merits and you will be fine. Making highly valuable enhancements more available is only going to A) break the market and B) make it that much easier to play a game that is already super easy. I say buff the content, make the game harder, not just stronger enemies but complex scenarios as well.