Focused Feedback: Rage

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

If you mean it's "broken" in the sense that it's too good, I don't know how having it makes Super Strength subpar.

Basically because Double Stacked Rage exists, they will never fix the powers balanced based on a game no one has played since IOs came out.  Basically Jab, Punch and Hurl. 

 

KOB too really, it should have a 5 second lower recharge time 

[Blastit]

I think that Rage would be more interesting not as the vital cornerstone of the set, without which it's terrible, but as a situational power or one that required more consideration for when and how to use it. A toggle that improves damage but decreases def and res would be more interesting to me.

[Cawshun]

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Honestly, the “Holding Hostage” idea is the most accurate descriptive of what is currently happening in this thread.

It's a childish descriptive is what it is. So is comparing people who like a mechanic to drug addicts. I have no power over decisions regarding development of Homecoming nor am I somehow addicted to a mechanic within a game. 
 

6 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

I think that stacking Rage is the broken part and the set will never be more than a subpar example of one of the most iconic powers of the entire genre unless that is removed.

You're welcome to that opinion. Not everybody is going to like every mechanic for every set in the game. That's why the game has so many sets with different mechanics and play styles.
 

Rage was designed as an extended period of increased damage to give SS the feeling of heavy hits with the damage crash to balance it so it wouldn't become over powered. Game balance is important. If Super Strength could always do the damage of two rage stacks with no downside, other sets would feel awful by comparison. If you remove the damage crash, you have to bring the damage of the set down as well to compensate. I don't know about anyone else, but I like being able to hit hard.

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Cawshun said:

It's a childish descriptive is what it is. So is comparing people who like a mechanic to drug addicts. I have no power over decisions regarding development of Homecoming nor am I somehow addicted to a mechanic within a game. 

It's a debating tactic.  You get distracted by the metaphor and thus forget to defend your position.  You still didn't prove that you aren't holding the set hostage because you're focused on arguing how the phrase paints people as villains or how the individuals who prefer double-stacked Rage are being compared to addicts.

 

No one actually thinks you're a villain or addict.  We are adults, not idiots.  Maybe you guys did, maybe you didn't (didn't read this whole thread), but why wouldn't you agree to compromise by removing the stacking nature of that buff and shore up some of the difference with changes to the rest of the powers?  Any other talking point just makes you seem like a group who are intrinsically unreasonable thus shouldn't be considered seriously...which is the point of the tactic.

 

1 hour ago, Cawshun said:

You're welcome to that opinion. Not everybody is going to like every mechanic for every set in the game. That's why the game has so many sets with different mechanics and play styles.

Considering the set is being looked at for proliferation, I suppose we'll just have to keep debating on how viable the mechanic is for a double Rage Scrapper.

[Cawshun]

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You still didn't prove that you aren't holding the set hostage because you're focused on arguing how the phrase paints people as villains or how the individuals who prefer double-stacked Rage are being compared to addicts.

The burden of proof is not on the defense. Either way, unless I somehow have Captain Powerhouse locked in my basement, I'm not sure how I would be holding a set hostage. I'm simply pointing out that attempting to insult the opposition is not debating, it's a last resort when you don't have a counter to their point. You lose all credibility once you attempt to insult a person's character. Speaking of proof, I haven't seen a solid reason that Rage is broken or ruins the kit. It's all posts that they don't like it. There's a number of kits I don't like, but I don't complain about them and say they need to change. I don't expect to like everything. It's impossible to make everyone happy, and trying to do so usually results in things becoming worse.
 

24 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Maybe you guys did, maybe you didn't (didn't read this whole thread), but why wouldn't you agree to compromise by removing the stacking nature of that buff and shore up some of the difference with changes to the rest of the powers?

I have on several posts shared ideas of possible changes to rage. Also the current iteration on beta IS a compromise. You don't have to crash if you don't want to, while those that want to enjoy the damage benefits of stacking at the cost of the crash can do that too. People that don't want to crash are getting their compromise, but they're the ones not agreeing to it.
 

22 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Considering the set is being looked at for proliferation, I suppose we'll just have to keep debating on how viable the mechanic is for a double Rage Scrapper.

Several sets have received changes when going to other ATs without changing it for the original AT. That's likely what we will see in the case of SS on scrappers. 

[Leogunner]

12 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

The burden of proof is not on the defense. Either way, unless I somehow have Captain Powerhouse locked in my basement, I'm not sure how I would be holding a set hostage. I'm simply pointing out that attempting to insult the opposition is not debating, it's a last resort when you don't have a counter to their point.

If you took those metaphors as insults, then who do you honestly think is losing credibility here?  And no, it's not a last resort, it's merely a talking point, one you've chosen to go on a tangent on rather than defend your position.

 

12 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

Speaking of proof, I haven't seen a solid reason that Rage is broken or ruins the kit.

SS Scrappers.  I will remind you, the reason Rage is being looked at in the first place is so it can be proliferated.

 

12 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

I have on several posts shared ideas of possible changes to rage. Also the current iteration on beta IS a compromise. You don't have to crash if you don't want to, while those that want to enjoy the damage benefits of stacking at the cost of the crash can do that too. People that don't want to crash are getting their compromise, but they're the ones not agreeing to it.

Not sure how much testing is going on in this thread, but the tangent seems to be focused on more changes than just the ones on test.

 

As for changes to Scrapper SS and other sets going to Scrapper, it's usually in the form of more damage, not less and that's likely what would need to happen if you can still double stack Rage.  I'm trying to think of a proliferated set that removes damage outside of Fire Melee's AoE or some sort of debuff like -res being decreased by mods...

Edited September 21, 2019 by Leogunner

[Shadowfane]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

If you took those metaphors as insults, then who do you honestly think is losing credibility here?  And no, it's not a last resort, it's merely a talking point, one you've chosen to go on a tangent on rather than defend your position.

 

SS Scrappers.  I will remind you, the reason Rage is being looked at in the first place is so it can be proliferated.

 

Not sure how much testing is going on in this thread, but the tangent seems to be focused on more changes than just the ones on test.

 

As for changes to Scrapper SS and other sets going to Scrapper, it's usually in the form of more damage, not less and that's likely what would need to happen if you can still double stack Rage.  I'm trying to think of a proliferated set that removes damage outside of Fire Melee's AoE or some sort of debuff like -res being decreased by mods...

 

 

CP has already said that when Scrappers get SS, they either won't get Rage as is, or they won't get Rage at all.

[Cawshun]

36 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

If you took those metaphors as insults, then who do you honestly think is losing credibility here?

Metaphors intended to discredit the target using an immense amount of hyperbole. I'm not insulted by them, I'm stating they come across as insults. It's all well and good you think it's a distraction tactic, but I've already made my points about Rage. Using a distraction tactic after that while not defending your own position seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

 Edit: I was told to refer you to this book - https://bookofbadarguments.com/

36 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

it's merely a talking point, one you've chosen to go on a tangent on rather than defend your position.

What position am I supposed to be defending exactly? I've made many posts defending my position on rage and the iteration on beta, which is what this thread is supposed to be a discussion of.


Regardless this is getting off-topic. Let's get the focus of the discussion back on rage itself.
 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Cawshun

[Leogunner]

20 minutes ago, Shadowfane said:

 

 

CP has already said that when Scrappers get SS, they either won't get Rage as is, or they won't get Rage at all.

Oh yeah, I remember that post now.

 

Then I suppose the relative difference between double stacked Rage on Tanker/Brute vs the capable damage of the Scrapper version of the set is likely what is being considered here.  But then I'd say what reason would SS on the other 2 need to do so much damage when you could actually play an AT meant to deal high damage using that set?  Not saying it has to do little damage or far less damage, but considering the reason why jump through so many hoops to retain something that was suppose to be a neat quirk but is basically being unduly exploited.

 

13 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

I'm not insulted by them, I'm stating they come across as insults.

Great.  Then the other points made were meaningless.

 

I don't deal with people complaining about how other people might feel.  It's a waste of my time.

 

15 minutes ago, Cawshun said:

What position am I supposed to be defending exactly? I've made many posts defending my position on rage and the iteration on beta, which is what this thread is supposed to be a discussion of.

Regardless this is getting off-topic. Let's get the focus of the discussion back on rage itself.

Well, it was an interaction initiated by a hypocritical statement by you (talking about insinuating insults while soundly insulting in a similar manner, the term "childish" being the catalyst).  I merely rationalized the use.

 

I still feel people are holding this double stacked Rage thing against the set and thus the powers can't just be made better...and all because people want to exploit recharge to it's maximum capacity.  It shouldn't exist, IMO.  Even perma is rather pushing it.  The last part is merely my critique on the set's design, tho.

[Cawshun]

21 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I still feel people are holding this double stacked Rage thing against the set and thus the powers can't just be made better...and all because people want to exploit recharge to it's maximum capacity.  It shouldn't exist, IMO.  Even perma is rather pushing it.  The last part is merely my critique on the set's design, tho.

I think in that case the problem is recharge itself rather than Rage. I would agree that recharge on the whole is a bit out of control. Power creep has made it fairly easy to get recharge to very high levels with relative ease, especially with how much easier it's become to get sets and the like. It's affected a lot more than just SS. I've felt for a while like hasten should be reworked, as it's a go to power for almost every build. I don't think power pools were in the power percentages @ 50 post but I'd be curious to see just how often hasten is chosen. If it was part of a specific kit that wouldn't necessarily be a problem, as a pool power, it feels like it is.

The question would be how would a blanket change to recharge go over with the community.

 

33 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I don't deal with people complaining about how other people might feel.  It's a waste of my time.

I was intending it more as a discussion, not complaining. I apologize that it came across that way. I can own up to being a bit insulting/hypocritical with using childish. The same comments over and over were starting to sound like a broken record while not contributing anything on the topic of rage, so I probably over-reacted a little.

[Blastit]

I'm amazed that Hasten has been kept in the game, considering it's such a strong and ubiqutous pool power.

[Rejolt]

1 hour ago, Blastit said:

I'm amazed that Hasten has been kept in the game, considering it's such a strong and ubiqutous pool power.

Was going to say this. I don’t want want to suggest anything about it lol. It’s already lost it’s def bonus from launch!

 

I made a really bad Rage suggestion on Friday but after saying it I played a SS tank on Pineapple and my SS brute on live: I love the beta change and I’m good with it as is.

 

1. I can time the 25 end cost better

2. I can time the Gaussian proc when I need it and

3. in case of emergency I can stack Rage, which when my acc is debuffed comes in handy 

[ZeeHero]

Revert the - resist change to rage and keep it -20% defense. this made rage not terrible if you used it with a resist based set.

[William Valence]

18 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Revert the - resist change to rage and keep it -20% defense. this made rage not terrible if you used it with a resist based set.

This would make it so that resist sets could effectively ignore the mitigation crash again and defense sets got the diamond-hard shaft. No Bueno.

 

While I'm not the biggest fan of the implementation, it's because I'm a massive fan of consistency. It's why I don't play brutes. But the implementation of the mitigation crash is fair to both types of mitigation, and manages to be kinder to players that have fewer mitigation stats while scaling up in effect as more mitigation stats are added.

 

It's an absolutely reasonable change.

[ZeeHero]

1 minute ago, William Valence said:

This would make it so that resist sets could effectively ignore the mitigation crash again and defense sets got the diamond-hard shaft. No Bueno.

 

While I'm not the biggest fan of the implementation, it's because I'm a massive fan of consistency. It's why I don't play brutes. But the implementation of the mitigation crash is fair to both types of mitigation, and manages to be kinder to players that have fewer mitigation stats while scaling up in effect as more mitigation stats are added.

 

It's an absolutely reasonable change.

If it was -10% resist and -10% defense it would be.

[Rejolt]

26 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Revert the - resist change to rage and keep it -20% defense. this made rage not terrible if you used it with a resist based set.

The point was it is only hurting def-intensive characters currently. The change affects builds more equally. 

 

Most resist-based toons go well over the cap too to particular types. Fire vs fire, Elec vs energy, etc., if farming extreme damage of those types would likely still be near 90 percent.

 

edit: asking for -10 def/-10 res  is a better route to go for asking for a change. Current devs are likely going by the 1 def = 2 res concept established on live (I don’t think this way but I understand it).

Edited September 21, 2019 by Rejolt

[ZeeHero]

1 minute ago, Rejolt said:

The point was it is only hurting def-intensive characters currently. The change affects builds more equally. 

 

Most resist-based toons go well over the cap too to particular types. Fire vs fire, Elec vs energy, etc., if farming extreme damage of those types would likely still be near 90 percent.

It still shafts sets like invulnerability which have difficulty capping most non S/L resists. 20% is too much. if its going to be fair it should be equal debuffs on defense and resist, and 20% is too much.

[William Valence]

3 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

If it was -10% resist and -10% defense it would be.

Not quite, remember base tohit is 50% if I take the defense debuff I'm at 60% chance to be hit I've increased damage taken 20% 

 

If I was softcapped and I take the defense debuff I'm at 15% chance to be hit, I've increased damage taken 300%

 

If I'm at no resist and I take a -20% resist debuff I increase the damage I take 20%

 

If I'm at 90% resist and I take a -20% debuff I increase the damage I take 300%

 

Again, it may not be the most intuitive to understand, but it's a well thought out change that does what it intends.

[ZeeHero]

So making you take 300% more damage in the crash in ALL powersets is considered an improvement to rage? I cannot comprehend this logic.

[William Valence]

4 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

So making you take 300% more damage in the crash in ALL powersets is considered an improvement to rage? I cannot comprehend this logic.

Well if it were put back to -20% defense, as you originally recommended, it would cause soft-cap defense to take 500% more damage, and resist sets would just get to effectively ignore it.

[ABlueThingy]

 I *like* the feeling of ever escalating heights of power.  Maybe Dragon Ball Z broke my mind but I like the Rage, Rage X2, Burnout Rage X3.  Knowing I just put myself on a timer feels like a fair penalty and the high of ultimate power and batting foes around like Styrofoam is amazing.

 

Reading through this I see people's point about the "Double-stacked rage holding the set hostage"  That's just so much damage that unless you throw a crash in there it's objectively better.  But people that don't like crashes and avoid them are getting screwed because the set needs to stay at a low baseline to avoid being broken powerful. Personally though I don't need the set to do huge amounts of damage.  It just has to FEEL strong for me.  FEEL like I'm hitting with the force of a truck.  Even if I don't have 400% damage and I'm not actually one-shoting AVs

 

What if they raised the damage of SS baseline to be better and add in an itty bitty AoE to all the single target SS powers.  Something like 1 foot.  Now make rage work more like Burst of Speed.  You click it once and get regular Rage, no crash.  Right after you use it you have a small window for say 5 seconds where it recharges in 2 seconds. If you hit it again you get maybe a small bonus to damage and an AoE size boost you can stack but now you get the crash.  If you max out your recharge you could 4-5 stack it. Turning the whole set into big AoE explosions that bounce rooms of enemies around.

 

Unlike TW you would have to deal with a crash if you wanted to abuse that.  Tweak the numbers so you can't get the basic attacks over... say 7ft AoE?  And most people would just have it around 5-6ft.  Just enough so you're hitting around 3 guys regularly and 5 guys max.  You could also lower the crash strength because it's not as big as an 80% damage boost.

 

 

Now the AoE boosting is just a hypothetical buff Double/Triple-Rage could give.  I just want to keep the option to throw it into turbo mode, even with a risk to myself.  Using the Burst of Speed idea you have more control over when the crash happens and how bad it is.  "Do I want to go to level 2 or slam the gas to level 5?"  You pick right after you activate the power how many times you want to mash it. 

 

OF COURSE I also don't know how the code works, you might not be able to use the weird mechanics that power has as a buff power like that.   I just want to keep my stacking anime power ups

 

[Haijinx]

I always love how its slanted.  So when you are normally playing you take so little damage normally your green bar never moves .. Now you take 300% MOAR! so your green bar might move some, depending on your build.  

 

Its not like you are suddenly crushed by the weight of 300 Expy-Romans. 

[ZeeHero]

I mean I'm fine with a small crash but 300% more damage is pretty significant. the best rage fix would be to adjust SS damage and remove the rage crash adjusting rage accordingly.

[Vanden]

It's only 300% more damage if you're at the cap. If you have more moderate defenses, it's not such a big increase. And it only sounds big because we're talking in percents, if you use actual numbers it's more like you're now taking 30 damage out of a potential 90, versus only 10 outside the crash.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Vanden

[ZeeHero]

ok so I guess not too bad. sounds huge though.